Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Since they made battalions 5 cp, I see everybody without exception bringing double battalion as standard. This is idiotic, if you want to overload your army with CP you should have to bring a brigade instead of spending a few hundred points on troops. The answer here isn't to make other detachments bring more points and having an inflated CP system but to simply bring battalions back down to 3 points, that's 3 times more than any other standard option.

 brazenjaw wrote:
Since they made battalions 5 cp, I see everybody without exception bringing double battalion as standard. This is idiotic, if you want to overload your army with CP you should have to bring a brigade instead of spending a few hundred points on troops. The answer here isn't to make other detachments bring more points and having an inflated CP system but to simply bring battalions back down to 3 points, that's 3 times more than any other standard option.

Or just limit people to no more than one of each type of detachment?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 brazenjaw wrote:
Since they made battalions 5 cp, I see everybody without exception bringing double battalion as standard. This is idiotic, if you want to overload your army with CP you should have to bring a brigade instead of spending a few hundred points on troops. The answer here isn't to make other detachments bring more points and having an inflated CP system but to simply bring battalions back down to 3 points, that's 3 times more than any other standard option.

Or just limit people to no more than one of each type of detachment?

That massively depends though.
Not all factions have an equal capability to fill said detachments.

 brazenjaw wrote:
Since they made battalions 5 cp, I see everybody without exception bringing double battalion as standard. This is idiotic, if you want to overload your army with CP you should have to bring a brigade instead of spending a few hundred points on troops. The answer here isn't to make other detachments bring more points and having an inflated CP system but to simply bring battalions back down to 3 points, that's 3 times more than any other standard option.

You are aware of just how many points it costs for a number of armies to be able to field a good brigade right?
Out aide of Guard most codex's simply don't have enough good choices in every slot to make a brigade work.
Fast attack being an common culprit.

Ice_can wrote:

 brazenjaw wrote:
Since they made battalions 5 cp, I see everybody without exception bringing double battalion as standard. This is idiotic, if you want to overload your army with CP you should have to bring a brigade instead of spending a few hundred points on troops. The answer here isn't to make other detachments bring more points and having an inflated CP system but to simply bring battalions back down to 3 points, that's 3 times more than any other standard option.

You are aware of just how many points it costs for a number of armies to be able to field a good brigade right?
Out aide of Guard most codex's simply don't have enough good choices in every slot to make a brigade work.
Fast attack being an common culprit.

On top of that, some armies want to avoid their Fast attack like the plague due to a tendency of beeing full of codex-corpses.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 brazenjaw wrote:
Since they made battalions 5 cp, I see everybody without exception bringing double battalion as standard. This is idiotic, if you want to overload your army with CP you should have to bring a brigade instead of spending a few hundred points on troops. The answer here isn't to make other detachments bring more points and having an inflated CP system but to simply bring battalions back down to 3 points, that's 3 times more than any other standard option.

Or just limit people to no more than one of each type of detachment?

Probably the best solution.

My army (Militarum Tempestus) can only make patrols and battalions. Other detachments would have to be Elite or HQ, or Airwing, but that doesn’t share the keyword around.

 Apple Peel wrote:
My army (Militarum Tempestus) can only make patrols and battalions. Other detachments would have to be Elite or HQ, or Airwing, but that doesn’t share the keyword around.

While I get what your saying, and dont persay disagree with it, i know someone else will use it as an argument that people are being sentimental.

I'll worry about subfactions when we dont have people suggesting fixes like use a brigade which for Custodes is 3420 points minimum using codex options and 2500 with the cheapest FW units, making that actually play correctly bumps it to near 3000 points

While a double battalion is about 1550 minimum.

Dude... Some armies troops are so expensive and offer so little value.. it is idiotic I agree.

The real fix is moving both battalions and brigades back down in CP and upping the battleforge amount to say 6 or so.

Or.. controversially have the same set CP pool (13 seems fair) for everyone.

Could make battalion a mandatory FOC type army core to ensure people still take some troops. Not that people wouldn't take troops for obj sec/screening.

 Argive wrote:
Or.. controversially have the same set CP pool (13 seems fair) for everyone.

Could make battalion a mandatory FOC type army core to ensure people still take some troops. Not that people wouldn't take troops for obj sec/screening.

I really don't get why people think the FOC is the best thing ever, it really wasn't. It just turned into who got the best way to break it, even in 3rd edition it didn't actually survive GW's need to hand out ways to break the core rules.

The idea for 8th is fine but as per usual GW implementation leaves a lot to be improved.

Ice_can wrote:
The real fix is moving both battalions and brigades back down in CP and upping the battleforge amount to say 6 or so.

The current gap between Battalion and Brigade is too large and should be filled with something. Since the use British Army organization as a model,
the solution would be to rename the "Battalion" to "Company" and create a new "Battalion" that would fall between the new "Company" and the "Brigade" in both size and CP.

Ice_can wrote:

 Argive wrote:
Or.. controversially have the same set CP pool (13 seems fair) for everyone.

Could make battalion a mandatory FOC type army core to ensure people still take some troops. Not that people wouldn't take troops for obj sec/screening.

I really don't get why people think the FOC is the best thing ever, it really wasn't. It just turned into who got the best way to break it, even in 3rd edition it didn't actually survive GW's need to hand out ways to break the core rules.

The idea for 8th is fine but as per usual GW implementation leaves a lot to be improved.

I don't think tis the best thing ever. You seem to think that's as long as it cannot be manipulated or changed it works fine? Which is what I was going for. Apologies if I am misrepresenting.

I'm just saying... me trying to fill a double battalion with very expensive T3 infantry gets very diminishing returns very quickly.. ya know?

Just tie CP to points level, and charge appropriate CP for stratagems - particularly - Strategems that effect high-point unit’s such as Knights or other Death Stars.

Let everyone take what they want to take. Unbound, all the way.

Crunch players gonna crunch. No matter the limitations they’ll bust it. So take away limitations.

Fluffy players gonna fluff. They’ll take their 10-man tactical squads and lament how they get curb stomped by the latest hotness.

Another possibility would be to limit a battalion's cp points to "one less than the number of troop choices in the battalion."

So suddenly the inconsequential 49 (15 vangaurd skitarii, two enginseers, 30 imperial gaurd regulars without anything, and two company commanders) would only gift you FOUR points. But if you wanted a serious battalion you could get six troops in it, and I think by that point of investment its pretty fair to get 5 points out of a fairly major troop body with multiple commanders.

The current meta crunch seemed (at least what I saw at NOVA) to put 3 disintigraters in a lot of lists (since they are about 2/3 the points cost of equivalent gaurd shooting units). But at least, if they were cheesing that, they would either have to make an honest admech battalion with 6 troops of admech and three heavy support (at which point, might as well throw in a tech dominus and call it a day) .. to get back to 5 points.

But that would let people gimp the "dip into gaurd" while leaving the possibility of a flexible force of multiple useful battalions still being competitive in CP raising.

Another VERY useful idea would be to limit the player to being forced to pick only one detachment to generate his CP with -- the detachment with his warlord.

Viola, you force some interesting choices on the soup guys, while the occasional warlords who generate EXTRA cp suddenly become more interesting in expensive factions.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Just tie CP to points level, and charge appropriate CP for stratagems - particularly - Strategems that effect high-point unit’s such as Knights or other Death Stars.

Let everyone take what they want to take. Unbound, all the way.

Crunch players gonna crunch. No matter the limitations they’ll bust it. So take away limitations.

Fluffy players gonna fluff. They’ll take their 10-man tactical squads and lament how they get curb stomped by the latest hotness.

How about the rule of 3? A rule that was so good that 40% of people will only play matched play games with you if you follow the rule, despite it being a mere tournament guideline. Relatively few people want to play against Spike's 7 Plague Crawlers. If people are going to break the current system anyway then why do people love this limitation so much?

Not Online!!! wrote:
On top of that, some armies want to avoid their Fast attack like the plague due to a tendency of beeing full of codex-corpses.

Sorry for the noob question, but what's a "codex-corpse"? Does that mean a unit that once had a use but has since been made obsolete or underpowered?


I would be in favor of bringing Battalions down to 3 CPs, but only if HQ's for a Battalion are made 1-2 instead of 2-3. Requiring two HQ's is a bit much for some armies, and a higher Troop-to-HQ ratio is definitely something to be encouraged.

I agree with 2 of the solutions presented. Either:

Limit armies to only 1 type of Detachment (but remove the 3 detachment total limit)
-or-
Drop Battalions back down to 3CP and bump Battle Forged up (either to 5CP, or 3CP per turn if your WL is alive)

-

I would just make the Vanguard, Outrider, and Spearhead detachments worth 3 points each.

 Chris521 wrote:
I would just make the Vanguard, Outrider, and Spearhead detachments worth 3 points each.

That works too.
Another idea I've suggested before is to:
Knock Battalions back down to 3CPs, but grant ANY Detachment +2CPs if the detachment shares a faction keyword with your Warlord OTHER than Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari, etc.

This would be a way to reward mono-faction lists without "punishing" soup too much. You can still take the Loyal 32 to get some CPs for your Knights, but you won't' get as many CPs as if you keep the whole army within a specific Faction. If you make a Knight your WL, only your Knight detachments get +2CPs. If you make one of the Commanders your WL, only the Guard detachment gets +2CP. For that specific example, you can certainly get the same "net" CPs as now, but mono-faction lists would be on equal footing

It would also mean Vanguard, Spearhead & Outrider detachments that stick to the WLs faction actually get a reasonable amount of CPs (3 each)

For me, this is the point of this change - not necessarily to take CPs away from soup lists (aside from making Battalions only 3CP), but to add that much MORE CPs to mono-faction lists. A 3 detachment army that has the same non-Battle Bro keyword throughout would be 6 more CPs than it does now (+2 per detachment)

-

What about limiting any detachment after the first to +1CP.

Batallion: 5CP.
2 batallions: 6CP.
2 batallions & auxiliary: 5CP.

Soupers can soup, and get some benefits for it. but massed CP isn't one of them.

I would be in favour of adding the old FOC (with the 2 troops 1HQ minimums) as it's own detachment with less CP.


tying it to amount of troops always nerfs elite-troop or crap-troop armies who would rather take minimal troops anyway. it buffs hordes and troop-heavy armies, who would have taken extra troops anyway.

Tying it to the points is one way to go, but it also takes away the limits of what to bring.

This could be offset by making detachments cost CP.

Example:
2000 points gives 15CP
Old FOC costs 3CP
Aux detachment (one extra unit of any type) costs 1CP
Superheavy detachment costs 2CP
battalion (more compulsory units) costs 2CP
Brigade (even more compulsory units) costs 1CP
spearheads and such cost 2CP

so you can restrict your army to fit in one chart and have more CP, or you can have more freedom to take what you want and have less CP. Bigger force charts with more minimum units (thus restricting your army build) cost less CP to take.


Exact values would need tweaking but it would mean that taking loads of battallions or taking whatever units you want would reduce your CP instead of adding to it.

I agree with Some Bloke.

The best answer I've seen is to work backwards with CP. Start with 16, -1 for Brig, -2 for bat, -3 for anything else.

An additional -2 for any detachments not sharing 2 keywords with your warlord.

Bonuses for filling out detachments. No bonus for bringing the loyal 32 just for the CP. Penalty for souping. Doesn't hurt elite armies too much (no forced bat/brigs).

DE would get their patrols bonus but they only cost -1. Seems to solve all of the issues people have with CP generation/souping...

I don't see GW making changes that would drastically reduce access to command points nor would I want them to. The stratagem system is their hot new mechanic so if anything they would make it more accessible to everyone.

Making those 3 detachments worth 3 CP, would do just that. It's a very simple change that would allow elite, mono-faction armies to have up to 12 CP without a single troops choice.

 Chris521 wrote:
Making those 3 detachments worth 3 CP, would do just that. It's a very simple change that would allow elite, mono-faction armies to have up to 12 CP without a single troops choice.

Which 100% needs to happen. With Troops getting so many benefits, it seems odd that Elite/Fast/Heavy lists seem to PAY CPs just to exist.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Chris521 wrote:
Making those 3 detachments worth 3 CP, would do just that. It's a very simple change that would allow elite, mono-faction armies to have up to 12 CP without a single troops choice.

Which 100% needs to happen. With Troops getting so many benefits, it seems odd that Elite/Fast/Heavy lists seem to PAY CPs just to exist.

-

I'd still rather see battle forged bonus bumped over the detachments go up in CP as it actually rewards detachment spam even more than it currently is.

Also if the battle forged CP bonus is big enough it possible it can be tiered as you get 5 base, another 3 if every unit in your army shares a subfaction keyword with you warlord.

So, instead of rewarding detachment spam, we’d like to see a level playing field, where both players get the same amount of CP, the same way we want both players to use the same amount of points.

If only there was some kind of way, to give both players the same amount of CP, that somehow scaled with the size of the game?

Like, if your CP was somehow tied to the points value of the game, or something like that, and ignored your detachment setup altogether.

 greatbigtree wrote:
So, instead of rewarding detachment spam, we’d like to see a level playing field, where both players get the same amount of CP, the same way we want both players to use the same amount of points.

That's what you want.

 vict0988 wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
So, instead of rewarding detachment spam, we’d like to see a level playing field, where both players get the same amount of CP, the same way we want both players to use the same amount of points.

That's what you want.

I agree, but I think it's important to note that some Stratagems are far more efficient because they affect better units and those armies tend to not have access to cheap CPs.
If you standardize the amount of CPs, you have to redo a lot of Strats.

-

Yes to both counts.

"I'll tell ya what I want
what I really, really want."
"So tell' em what you want
what you really really want."
"I wanna Huh! I wanna Huh! I wanna Huh! I wanna Huh!
I wanna really really really really fix-cp-ee-aaah!"

You wanna see the fut-cha? Forget the past.
You wanna get CP? Ditch Detachmaahnts.
You wanna just make it... tied to the game.
Fifteen Hundred points? Here's your 15 Cee-Pee.