Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi,

I'm seeking a confirmation following a game I played yesterday against marines with the stalwart chapter tactic.

I had a nice re-roll bubble going on with an Autarch (re-roll 1's to hit) and a Farseer (reroll 1's to wound with Runes of Witnessing + Doom on specific units), but my opponent stated that as the wording on his chapter tactic explicitly stated the following, I couldn't re-roll 1's or 2's to wound:

"When resolving an attack made against a unit with this tactic, an unmodified wound roll of 1 or 2 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making that attack may have".

Going by the wording on the chapter tactic and taking it exactly as it's written I have to agree, but given how crippling this was I just had to check if it's the correct interpretation?

Does this chapter tactic really prohibit the re-rolling of wound rolls of 1 and 2?

-------------------------------------------------------------

I wanted to check this because It basically allowed his army to ignore at least 25% of all incoming damage and cripples Doom and the Runes of Witnessing stratagem which are massive for an Eldar player. I got completely wiped off the table and really struggled to do anything to him with shooting and CC.

He literally lost more models from overcharging his plasma weapons and mortal wounds from my psychic powers\snipers than I was able to kill with normal shooting and CC.

I'm not the greatest player in the world (far from it) and I'm sure others could have done better, but it felt so totally one sided it' has kind of put me off playing any more unless they change something.

I got back into 40k to play a fluffy craftworld army, but it's beginning to feel like if I want to stand any chance of winning I need to give up on this and just drop a bunch of flyers on the table... and that's just depressing.

They were wrong. Re-rolls and modifiers are different things. You can still re-roll, but if after the re-roll and before modifiers the result is a 1 or 2, THEN it can't wound.

You can re-roll 1s and 2s to wound with doom and rites of witnessing. Why shouldnt you be able to ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stux wrote:
They were wrong. Re-rolls and modifiers are different things.

Agreed.

 Stux wrote:

You can still re-roll, but if after the re-roll and before modifiers the result is a 1 or 2, THEN it can't wound.

Its unmodified rolls of 1 and 2. If there is -1 to wound, and the wound roll is a 3, a result of 2 will still wound.

Thank you for the replies.

Are you absolutely sure? I argued the same thing, but it says "irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making that attack may have". Doesn't this preclude the 'ability' to re-roll the wound roll?

Isn't the ability to re-roll the wound roll an 'ability' and therefore you are explicitly excluded from using it? e.g. you roll a 1 or a 2 to wound and that's a fail, you can't use any 'ability' to change it and as the ability to re-roll is an 'ability' it's a fail.

He stated a couple of times that this has been FAQ'd, but searching this morning I can't find it in any of the FAQ's.

Yes, I am sure. It says unmodified - it is irrespective of any modifiers. Re-rolls are completely unaffected by this rule.

Ok, thank you! That would have made a big difference yesterday.

Probably still wouldn't have won but it wouldn't have been a complete walk over.

Lythos_Miralbar wrote:


Isn't the ability to re-roll the wound roll an 'ability' and therefore you are explicitly excluded from using it? e.g. you roll a 1 or a 2 to wound and that's a fail, you can't use any 'ability' to change it and as the ability to re-roll is an 'ability' it's a fail.

Stalwart doesnt restrict you from using your re-roll abilities. All it says is that unmodified wound rolls of 1s and 2s always fail.

Lythos_Miralbar wrote:

He stated a couple of times that this has been FAQ'd, but searching this morning I can't find it in any of the FAQ's.

Next time he says it, ask him to show you where in the FAQs it is.

Lythos_Miralbar wrote:
Hi,

I'm seeking a confirmation following a game I played yesterday against marines with the stalwart chapter tactic.

I had a nice re-roll bubble going on with an Autarch (re-roll 1's to hit) and a Farseer (reroll 1's to wound with Runes of Witnessing + Doom on specific units), but my opponent stated that as the wording on his chapter tactic explicitly stated the following, I couldn't re-roll 1's or 2's to wound:

"When resolving an attack made against a unit with this tactic, an unmodified wound roll of 1 or 2 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making that attack may have".

Going by the wording on the chapter tactic and taking it exactly as it's written I have to agree, but given how crippling this was I just had to check if it's the correct interpretation?

Does this chapter tactic really prohibit the re-rolling of wound rolls of 1 and 2?

-------------------------------------------------------------

I wanted to check this because It basically allowed his army to ignore at least 25% of all incoming damage and cripples Doom and the Runes of Witnessing stratagem which are massive for an Eldar player. I got completely wiped off the table and really struggled to do anything to him with shooting and CC.

He literally lost more models from overcharging his plasma weapons and mortal wounds from my psychic powers\snipers than I was able to kill with normal shooting and CC.

I'm not the greatest player in the world (far from it) and I'm sure others could have done better, but it felt so totally one sided it' has kind of put me off playing any more unless they change something.

I got back into 40k to play a fluffy craftworld army, but it's beginning to feel like if I want to stand any chance of winning I need to give up on this and just drop a bunch of flyers on the table... and that's just depressing.

Well generally - it depends on how the reroll is worded. Reroll 1's you can reroll, the roll isn't finished until after the reroll if any, if it's reroll failed Whatevers (like the old Chapter Master rules) and X isn't a fail until the Tactic, then you can't reroll X. IOW, if the two was a successful wound (based on S v T) , and you're allowed to reroll failed wounds, you can't reroll the 2's that now fail due to the tactic..

Thank you so much everyone for the advice! I can see the logic behind this now, 're-rolls before modifiers' essentially.

The rule book clearly states re-rolls before modifiers, it's there in black and white. The 'Doom' power or 'Runes of Witnessing' stratagem give you re-rolls, the Stalwart chapter tactic is 'modifying' the dice roll by saying a 1 or 2 is a fail.

Therefore do the re-rolls then apply the chapter tactic.

I've now downloaded a copy of every FAQ \ Errata since May to my phone, and then sat down to read them all.

The next time someone tries telling me 'it's been FAQ'd' and I don't think it has I'm just going to hand over my phone and say 'show me or it's not a thing'.

It's so frustrating as a new \ returning player. I really wish GW would abandon the concept of paper and move to an online format. Then they could update the rule book and codex's as they went meaning you just need to look in a couple of places.

They could even have the FAQ's as part of the rulebook and codex's.

The stalwart trait is not modifying the roll.

A modifier is very specifically something that adds or subtracts a number from the roll. Eg if you move and fire with a Heavy weapon, that has a modifier of -1 to the hit roll.

These are applied after any re-roll. The trait causes a 1 or 2 to fail on the wound roll, before any + or - is applied, but after re-rolls.