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Aos-style daemon summoning in 40K - Could it work?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




For those who don't know, AoS has a wildly different daemon-summoning mechanic to 40K. For one thing, summoned units do NOT cost you list-building points. This is balanced by the fact that you have to build up to summoning stuff. Each Ruinous Power has a different way to build "summoning points" (although Khorne can do more than just summon with his points) - Khorne builds them when units get wiped out, Tzeentch builds them through casting spells, Slaanesh builds them through causing or suffering non-fatal wounds, and Nurgle builds them through unit positions on the board and Feculent Gnarlmaws. As you build more points, you can summon more and/or bigger stuff; for example, a Gnarlmaw only costs 7 summoning points for Nurgle, while a GUO needs 28. As is the current case, you need to summon near a character (with some terrain exceptions); you can have a billion summoning points, but if your characters are gone, you're SOL.

So do you think something akin to that could work in 40K? I really like the idea of not having to set aside points for summoning. Thought would need to be given to how various armies build summoning points, though. A mixed-Daemon army would probably be hobbled unless the army as a whole could take advantage of each Power's point-building mechanic (i.e., summoning points gained through casting powers could be used to summon anything). Word Bearers would need some thought as well.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





This was how summoning was done in 2nd edition Warhammer 40k. There I think it was hits for Khorne, wounds for Nurgle, and I forget what for Slaanesh and Tzeentch.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Well, the risk you'd run is recreating the 7th edition daemon factories where 2,000 point lists ended up fielding 2700 points of daemons. You'd have to make summoning difficult enough that an army focused on summoning couldn't actually summon enough stuff to skew game balance. And when you're talking about coming up with 4+ ways of generating summoning points for basically the entirety of the daemon faction, that's a wobbly tight rope to walk.

I'd kind of like to see a more limited version of this. Let players earn CP or "prayer points" by doing fluffy stuff for their god, then have one of the methods of spending those points include reinforcing daemonic units. By limiting it to reinforcement rather than outright summoning new units, you give your opponent the opportunity to focus fire a unit and finish it off to prevent the reinforcement. Same way you focus down necrons.

Alternatively, maybe let players spend those "prayer points" to increase the result of a conventional summoning test? So they'd make summoning more potent by letting you reliably summon in more powerful units, but you still wouldn't be getting free points.

The game can get really wonky when one player functionally has 25% more points than the other.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Summoning is already pretty close to working, make more unit options viable in the list-building phase and you'll have more viable choices when summoning. If you have more viable choices for summoning it makes more sense to put pts into summoning. Consider how few Daemon units get used in tournaments, the internal balance is pretty poor from an outside perspective. It'd be easier to list the units that have been used than the ones that haven't I think.

Alternate ways of summoning would be great, but they should still cost pts. I don't know if you played in 7th against any of the Daemon factory armies, but Tzeentch Daemons could get 20-50% extra pts each turn and either led to people not having the right models which is a pay-to-win scenario or letting your opponent proxy the third summoned Bloodthirster. I know it might feel bad to not have those extra pts on the table and perhaps the base summoning mechanic could be improved so that it's easier or more reliable or something, but free pts is a recipe for disaster.

It'll be a must-use mechanic if its free and you just passively get these things without spending any pts or CP, so everyone has to go out and buy 500 pts of Daemons to play Chaos starting the day after you introduce this rule. If you wanted to buff Chaos this would be one way of doing it, but it might not be a playstyle that appeals to everyone. Instead you could have WL traits and Relics that generate CP or Reinforcement pts when you deal damage, hit something, make FNP rolls or whatever you like. Associate a cost with the mechanic in some way and make it one option instead of forcing the mechanic on everyone. You could also have Stratagems that generate reinforcement pts, like when a Khorne unit destroys an enemy unit in the Fight phase or when a Tzeentch unit manifests a psychic power or when a Nurgle doesn't move or when a Slaanesh unit is locked in combat at the end of your opponent's movement phase pay 3 CP to get x reinforcement pts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/24 07:06:39


 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






No, the idea that summoning should cost point is silly.
You are paying the price of action (your summoner standing still, fiddling his thumb), then you add a dash of uncertainty (might not roll high enough to get what you need), and pile up risk (your summoner just might blow himself up)

There is no rational behind summoning and not just putting the units on the field to begin with.
It does not get you forward faster. they are not different enough from each other to have silver bullet status (especially if you are not undivided)

Sure, the CURRENT method would be annoying if the daemons it came from were free, but the moment you pay the regular points AND have to do a fancy dance-why bother with the dance?


The one thing I hope from psychic awakening, is actually useful summoning rules.
Make it "free", but take some effort to pull off.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 BoomWolf wrote:
No, the idea that summoning should cost point is silly.
You are paying the price of action (your summoner standing still, fiddling his thumb), then you add a dash of uncertainty (might not roll high enough to get what you need), and pile up risk (your summoner just might blow himself up)

There is no rational behind summoning and not just putting the units on the field to begin with.
It does not get you forward faster. they are not different enough from each other to have silver bullet status (especially if you are not undivided)

Sure, the CURRENT method would be annoying if the daemons it came from were free, but the moment you pay the regular points AND have to do a fancy dance-why bother with the dance?


The one thing I hope from psychic awakening, is actually useful summoning rules.
Make it "free", but take some effort to pull off.


I'd rather go the opposite direction: summoning should cost points, but it should be easier to pull off.

As you've pointed out, the rules for summoning are restrictive enough that it doesn't really make for a good delivery system, and daemon units are homogenous enough that you don't get much benefit from waiting for a chance to summon the right tool for the job; it's not like you're summoning aspect warriors or something. So with that in mind, why not just allow characters to move before summoning? That way, a summoner with high mobility and/or a deepstrike ability could start summoning in reinforcements from turn 1 or 2. Basically, all summoners would double as drop pods for summoned daemons. The summoning rules would add some uncertainty to which units you end up bringing in (a low roll might cause you to bring in some plague bearers when what you want is a great unclean one), but you'd be deepstriking those daemon units in without having to pay CP for the daemon deepstrike stratagem. And while daemons are sort of homogenous, the ability to choose different units on the fly isn't completely without its merits. Khorne units are choppier than tzeentch units have more range and mortal wounds than nurgle units have more durability than the others. (Not sure there would be much incentive to summon Slaaneshi units except situationally though).

So yeah. Just let summoners move on the turn they summon, and summoning works reasonably well as a delivery system for daemons that don't want to footslog across the table. You won't reliably be pulling big daemons out, but your sorcerer will be tervigon'ing a screen of troops pretty reliably. You won't get CP for taking those daemons as troops in a batallion, but you won't be spending CP to deepstrike them either. Seems like a fluffy, unique play style.

From there, you could make a warlord trait or strat that improves your summoning rolls if you hold still, so an immobile summoner start reliably pulling out scarier units once he's in a useful position.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/25 02:56:06



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
 
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