Omnisaiah questions

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

1. Does it exist, as in can it manifest in reality? Like one of the Chaos gods? I know in Shadowsword it's heavily implied that the Baneblades are sentient servants of their god, and they even go further to imply that the Shadowswords are temperamental. Titans are literally called "God engines" as they believe them to house the spirit of the Omnisiah

2. Is it just referenced or is it's existence ever truly confirmed?

3. Does it affect all machines, or just certain ones? Does it affect non-imperium machines?

4. Does it ever affect Tau or Necron Machines?

**Tiberias**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
1. Does it exist, as in can it manifest in reality? Like one of the Chaos gods? I know in Shadowsword it's heavily implied that the Baneblades are sentient servants of their god, and they even go further to imply that the Shadowswords are temperamental. Titans are literally called "God engines" as they believe them to house the spirit of the Omnisiah

2. Is it just referenced or is it's existence ever truly confirmed?

3. Does it affect all machines, or just certain ones? Does it affect non-imperium machines?

4. Does it ever affect Tau or Necron Machines?

Anyone more knowledgeable than me in all things lore please correct me on this, but as far as I've always understood this the land raiders can be spirited is because they are operated by a rudimentary form of A.I.

Now humanity has already almost been screwed over by A.I. when the men of iron rebelled, and after that the use of A.I. was forbidden I think and then the advanced forms and uses of it got more and more forgotten. So, as far as I understand it the machine spirit of the land raider is just an A.I., a remnant of an age long past and not nearly as advanced and powerful as those in the past.
A titan A.I. or machine spirit is far more powerful than that of a land raider and I think it even merges with the consciousness of the princeps who pilots the titan.

Also, does the mechanicus not believe that the emperor is the omnissiah? Because he did some psychic shenanigans when he first arrived on mars where he "healed" some machines and the techpriests, superstitious as they are, thought he was some kind of machine-messiah?

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

So, I know for a fact the lore doesn't reference the Baneblades being granted an AI, but it does talk about their Dark Age "systems" and how they are basically just prayed to, and no one knows how they work. I guess that makes it an AI?

Now I'm even more confused. My main point, don't Tau use A.I.s? And if the Omnisaiah is a real "god" then it would fall under it's purview right?

**beast_gts**

Short answer - it's complicated.

From Lexicanum -

According to the Cult Mechanicus, knowledge is the supreme manifestation of divinity and all creatures and technology that embody knowledge are thus holy because of it. The worth of a single man is only the sum of his knowledge - his body is simply an organic machine capable of preserving intellect. It is by this motivation that the followers of the Cult Mechanicus follow the Quest for Knowledge, seeking new technology and information to better themselves.[1]

The Machine God, also known as the Deus Mechanicus, is the ultimate object of worship in the Cult Mechanicus. It is the Machine God that gave rise to all technologies and made them manifest through his chosen among mankind. To the Mechanicus, machines represent a higher form of life than those crudely formed from biological evolution. The planned perfection of form and function embodied in a machine are so great, that they could only have arisen from a divine source. Officially, the Cult Mechanicus maintains that the Emperor is the physical manifestation of the Machine God (the Omnissiah) and part of a trinity that also includes the Machine God and the Motive Force, the deity that gives all life and motion its continued existence.[2][3][4]

The Men of Iron also seem to have worshiped a faith similar to the Cult Mechanicus. One of its surviving constructs UR-025 states that it has met the true Omnissiah, not the false one worshipped by man, and that it would find the Mechanicum quite disappointing.

So, the Omnissiah does exist as can exert influence - but it's unclear if it's the Emperor, the Void Dragon, a Dark Age super-AI, a warp entity or something else...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
My main point, don't Tau use A.I.s? And if the Omnisaiah is a real "god" then it would fall under it's purview right?

Tau use very basic AI, but some of the AdMech think they're heading for their own Dark Age. Generally the AdMech despise Xenos tech as heretical - but factions such as the Xenarites cross that line.

**Tiberias**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I know for a fact the lore doesn't reference the Baneblades being granted an AI, but it does talk about their Dark Age "systems" and how they are basically just prayed to, and no one knows how they work. I guess that makes it an AI?

Now I'm even more confused. My main point, don't Tau use A.I.s? And if the Omnisaiah is a real "god" then it would fall under it's purview right?

No machine in the imperium is granted an Artificial Intelligence, because in the imperium A.I. stands for Abominable Intelligence. Basically big-e was afraid that something like the revolt of the men of iron could happen again, so artificial intelligence as it was used in the dark age of technology was outlawed.
What the imperium today calls machine spirit is as I said a rudimentary form of A.I. It can operate on itself for a period of time, it does however not have the ability to enhance itself like the men of iron or the STCs had.

I personally don't think that the machine god is real in that he is a warp entity like the chaos gods, I think the mechanicum is just very superstitious and likes to worshop machines. Or the machine god is in fact the void dragon, which would make him very real.

Unfortunately I can't answer your question about Tau using A.I, because I really don't know much about their lore.

**Tiennos**

One thing to remember if we're delving into that theology is that the Cult Mechanicus worships a holy trinity, much like Christianity: the Machine God, the Omnissiah and the Motive Force.
The Machine God is allegedly who invented all technology. It seems to actually be the dragon of Mars, who was put there by the Emperor and might in fact be a C'Tan.
The Omnissiah is supposed to be a physical manifestation of the Machine God and the Emperor has convinced/tricked the Mechanicus into believing that he was it. Or maybe he's the real deal. Who knows?
The Motive Force is what makes everything move. Most people don't think much about it.

As far as I know, the Omnissiah never manifests in person. When techpriests pray, it usually does stuff, but it could just be because the machines simply answer to instructions, wrapped in rite and mysticism.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Thanks guys.

**Darian Aarush**

I always thought the Omnissiah was the Machine Cult's interpretation of the Emperor, too.

**Andykp**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
1. Does it exist, as in can it manifest in reality? Like one of the Chaos gods? I know in Shadowsword it's heavily implied that the Baneblades are sentient servants of their god, and they even go further to imply that the Shadowswords are temperamental. Titans are literally called "God engines" as they believe them to house the spirit of the Omnisiah

2. Is it just referenced or is it's existence ever truly confirmed?

3. Does it affect all machines, or just certain ones? Does it affect non-imperium machines?

4. Does it ever affect Tau or Necron Machines?

Basically, Pre this dragon that st George (the emperor) magicked up to Mars, which by the way is some of the worst fluff they have done. Shame on black library. Any way. The mechanium basically worshipped technology and didn’t understand it. So anything they didn’t understand by computers and electronics and force they put down to holy powers and spirits. None of these things actually had spirits or supernatural spirits but that nuance seems to have been lost over the years. The machine spirit was just a form of logic engine or programme. Praying to machines is just superstition. When encountered from the perspective of a baneblade crew they wouldn’t dare question the holy and powerful spirit of their tank. In reality it is just a tank like a modern one.

Holy oils and rites of firing etc are just oil for maintenance and operating procedures taken to a religious level. The whole point was the irony of the misunderstanding. If a machine was malfunctioning and misfiring it machine spirit was angry. The tank isn’t angry at all. It’s a tank.

**Hawky**

The book series Forge of Mars had a very interesting take on the subject of Omnissiah and the Machine spirit. IIRC, it was described as something above both spirituality and physicality. An entity that knows all and understands all and gives zero ducks about humans or anything else, as long as it endures itself. It gave an impression it is a vast network of entities, all connected to one another, pretty much like a computer network working in unison within the whole mechanism. Although it was a machine spirit of an old starship. The books are worth reading, especially if you are interested in the mechanicus.

Also, aren't machines temperamental because the cogitators (computers) use human brains to process the data? The data output could be influenced by the brain itself and thus often behave irrationally and are often capable to feel loyalty and emotions to some extent?

**TarkinLarson**

Alongside standard electronic components, I had thought that because AI was outlawed they used to put real brains into the landraiders etc that made them semi-autonomous. These could be vat grown brains which were grown (or harvested) for specific purposes and so didn't need all their functions. Don't think of them like human brains put in, but just organic computers.

This is why they sometimes had "spirits" and some things like warhound titans would "smell" out their enemies and want to go in certain directions to fight and hunt. It's because they had rudimentary cognition and awareness.

This explains why the mechanicus needs biology departments and it's all a bit of a get out clause as these aren't "artificial" inteligences" as they're made of living material.

**Nurglitch**

In a universe where things literally have souls it's important that your technology has a human soul. It's also dualistic, in that there's the material part and the immaterial part, the machine and the spirit. Heck, even weapons have souls. It's a complicated universe, even when you try to separate it from the theologies of the people in the universe.

**TarkinLarson**

Nurglitch wrote:
In a universe where things literally have souls it's important that your technology has a human soul. It's also dualistic, in that there's the material part and the immaterial part, the machine and the spirit. Heck, even weapons have souls. It's a complicated universe, even when you try to separate it from the theologies of the people in the universe.

I can imagine sticking an organic computer into a (complex) weapon, that could potentially give it a soul. Appeasing that soul, and even easing its suffering by soothing and repairing it and maintaining it might go a long way to it cooperating. I guess these could be more instinctive intelligences, like if I stroke and talk to my dog it behaves better than if I ignore it and then demand it fetch my slippers. Imagine having to do that with your car or your toaster.

I don't know how the organic brain would be fed or powered though, never seen any hint of that anywhere so that's a serious flaw in my idea... but I can understand how it would happen in larger machines such as landraiders, but it would be less necessary for rhinos

**A Town Called Malus**

beast_gts wrote:

Tau use very basic AI, but some of the AdMech think they're heading for their own Dark Age. Generally the AdMech despise Xenos tech as heretical - but factions such as the Xenarites cross that line.

Tau AI tech is very advanced by this point. They use more AIs than just drones. There is Ob'lotai 9-0 who is an AI engram of Farsights old battlesuit teacher, the Puretide engram which still teaches the best Fire Caste trainees, and the Aun'Va AI engram.

**Andykp**

Nurglitch wrote:
In a universe where things literally have souls it's important that your technology has a human soul. It's also dualistic, in that there's the material part and the immaterial part, the machine and the spirit. Heck, even weapons have souls. It's a complicated universe, even when you try to separate it from the theologies of the people in the universe.

And this is the nuance gone missing in a nutshell.

**BrianDavion**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
beast_gts wrote:

Tau use very basic AI, but some of the AdMech think they're heading for their own Dark Age. Generally the AdMech despise Xenos tech as heretical - but factions such as the Xenarites cross that line.

Tau AI tech is very advanced by this point. They use more AIs than just drones. There is Ob'lotai 9-0 who is an AI engram of Farsights old battlesuit teacher, the Puretide engram which still teaches the best Fire Caste trainees, and the Aun'Va AI engram.

It'd proably never happen but it'd be intreasting to see what GW could do if they decided to in a story event have the Tau Suffer an AI revolt and create a "post revolt" tau faction and a "free AI" faction

**pm713**

BrianDavion wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
beast_gts wrote:

Tau use very basic AI, but some of the AdMech think they're heading for their own Dark Age. Generally the AdMech despise Xenos tech as heretical - but factions such as the Xenarites cross that line.

Tau AI tech is very advanced by this point. They use more AIs than just drones. There is Ob'lotai 9-0 who is an AI engram of Farsights old battlesuit teacher, the Puretide engram which still teaches the best Fire Caste trainees, and the Aun'Va AI engram.

It'd proably never happen but it'd be intreasting to see what GW could do if they decided to in a story event have the Tau Suffer an AI revolt and create a "post revolt" tau faction and a "free AI" faction

I think they should just have the AI be integrated into the Tau as citizens rather than the whole revolt thing. It would be a nice change from every sci fi story ever.