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Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Hi,

as stated in the thread about units that lost their role as guard player I find it quite sad that a lot of their tanks don't really find their place as they are in competition to the Leman Russ and Baneblade variants, which bring either the same firepower for cheaper costs or more for almost the same cost. There are a variety of examples but for now I'm mainly looking at the Malcador and Macharius Tanks.

The Malcador tanks all suffer from lacking grinding advance (so -1 to hit for their turret weapons) and having at best a similar (and usually less) firepower than their Leman Russ equivalents, which are much cheaper, can be tank commanders and profit from orders
The Macharius tanks cost only slightly less than a fitting Baneblade variant (which has + 4 wounds and is a dramatically better in CC) and often as much as two fitting Leman Russes (which have +2 wounds and more firepower)


Now I was thinking about possible house rules to give those units a push that might make them a real alternative (competetively). But I don't really like the approach of making everyting even killier cause it seems to me we already are in such a kind of arms race. Therefore I wanted to propose to work on another screw and mike them a bit tougher instead. Adding Invulnerability or FnP saves does not really make sense fluff wise but what about ditching the damage table effect on the BS? I mean: looking at the malcador it does not seem to farfetched to assume, that it is significantly harder to damage its weapon systems than those of a Leman Russ. Both tank variants would not really become harder to kill, but instead of a Baneblade or Leman Russ the enemy would have to really have to dedicate his fire power until the last wound is gone if he wants to stop them from shooting. Also this would reduce a small bit of bookkeeping instead of adding more dice rolls or something.

I think (!) this small change might make both units a small bit more useful making them true alternatives instead of the current situation. What are your thoughts about this?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/25 08:50:12


~1300 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle




In My Lab

It'd help, but I don't think it'd make them viable on anything but the most casual of levels.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





add the same grinding advance, however allow them to double their firepower of all guns if stationary.
That would make them more into the pillboxes they were supposed to be, atleast the macharius.

The Malcador was intended to be a fast Superheavy:
Maybee allow it to double instead it's maingun and ignore -1 to hit penalties thorugh movement?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

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Made in us
Wing Commander





Are Guard players really hurting for effective strategies and units? I get you like these specific tanks, but common. IG already have some of the cheapest, toughest, shootiest tanks in the game.
   
Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





@ Fezzik: I agree with you and I wouldn't even mind downgrading (or "upcosting") the existing units. What I tried to discuss here was less an INTER faction balance issue but more a INTRA faction issue.

My point in this thread is simply that I don't really like the perspective of being given a variety of (tank) units but then making two of those choices so enormously cost effective/shooty that the supposed "middle childs" are just quite pointless (crunch and fluff wise. I mean: why even bother Building a Malcador if it is that inferior while taking up more ressources?). And I think other factions have the same problem with some of their units (but I'm not very versed there).

Here on Dakka I have seen quite some similar house rule propositions popping up but it seems that 90% of the time they just take one of the inferior choices and only try to either upgrade firepower or reduce cost - and in most cases to an extend that just shifts the problem to the new updated unit. Therefore my question should mostly be seen as invitation to discuss if a tank going into the direction of more staying power instead of cheap and/or killy would present a real alternative in competetive games opening up new strategies. I simply lack the experience to make an educated guess if this would add strategic possibilities and complexity or not and thats why I asked for advise from you (which you did, by the way, therefore an honest thank you).


@ Not Online!!! : regarding everything I wrote above: I don't really think this would be a good approach. Increasing the firepower of the Malcador and Macharius would in the end just be the next step in a pointless arms race between the IG tanks. I personally think this would not really add a true alternative to the tank choice, since "alternative" should mean "a truly different approach to the units use".
To get my meaning: compare the Cadian and the Tallarn doctrine. Its really just a little bonus each yet they provide two completely different approaches on using IG units. While Cadia for example can use Sentinels as relatively cheap, stationary plasmaturrets, the Tallarn doctrine makes them the mobile, shooty scouts they were intended to be. That is the kind of "choice" I would like to see more of instead of "Unit A costs twice of Unit B for twice the firepower".

~1300 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Wing Commander





By my VERY hasty BatScribe search, there are over 10 LR variants out there. That's not including the Malcadors or the other FW nonsense tanks. LOOKING AT YOU CARNADON,

I think we need to cut down on the chaff before we start re-vising the rules regarding what could be effective. Now that the new Specialist Detachments are making the old standby of RFBC even more over the top, it further reduced the need for half the tanks in the codex.
   
Made in gb
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




Cardiff

I think the problem with the number of tanks is that FW developed them typically during the early-2000s when they were focused on background more than rules.

The Malcador have never been an exceptional tank, it’s always been quite expensive for not much extra firepower. Often or not, two Leman Russes were better options than a single Malcador.

In terms of buffing it, I think allowing it to move further as an active ability or even just increasing its speed would differentiate it from the Leman Russ. I reckon it should be able to move and fire without penalty, or even get the Leman Russ’ ability to fire twice.

Also the FAQs should allow it to be affected by orders and treat it as a Leman Russ in rules, such as in an Emperors Fist Tank Company, assuming it got Grinding Advance.

It generally is a weird tank anyway.

Please Consider The Environment Before Committing Heresy
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Made in us
Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos





The Wastes of Krieg

I agree with the OP, these are wonderful tanks in design and variance and would give more variety to IG as well as a more robust look. As good as the Leman Russ tanks, they honestly look horrible.

If they weren't resin and incredibly expensive, I would field quite a few of these.
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Are Guard players really hurting for effective strategies and units? I get you like these specific tanks, but common. IG already have some of the cheapest, toughest, shootiest tanks in the game.


Malcadors are not just fielded by IG.
R&H says hi, because this is one of the few tank families we can field.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Not Online!!! : regarding everything I wrote above: I don't really think this would be a good approach. Increasing the firepower of the Malcador and Macharius would in the end just be the next step in a pointless arms race between the IG tanks. I personally think this would not really add a true alternative to the tank choice, since "alternative" should mean "a truly different approach to the units use".
To get my meaning: compare the Cadian and the Tallarn doctrine. Its really just a little bonus each yet they provide two completely different approaches on using IG units. While Cadia for example can use Sentinels as relatively cheap, stationary plasmaturrets, the Tallarn doctrine makes them the mobile, shooty scouts they were intended to be. That is the kind of "choice" I would like to see more of instead of "Unit A costs twice of Unit B for twice the firepower".


Why are knights fielded then, and 90% of older Superheavies are not?
Also a leman russ has twice the firepower of a Malcador allready, due to their grinding advance actually working.
If i pay 2.5 Leman russes for a tank, it should do 2.5x as much work. Else there is no point in fielding them, and durability wise, you ain't going to get anything because the Malcador will never get an invulnerability save.

So what can we do, except ofcourse admitting that the firepower department of malcadors is hillariously low.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/25 15:00:48


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

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(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





@ Fezzik: Yes you are right there are a lot of Leman Russ variants available. But that's a bit misleading since it's just that they all have separate names (and some are even quite redundant). But in the end they only differ in weaponry. The same goes with all the Baneblade variants. Don't get me wrong, I'm aware that these two platforms alone give IG much more to choose from that a lot of other armies have in the vehicle department. But from a fluffy perspective that is quite what guard is all about: Infantry, Tanks and Artillery and if you want to stay really fluffy it should rarely be all three at once. That's the main reason why I, personally would like to see more of the other tank models on the board without that meaning to take the striktly inferior choice. But that's my personal opinion and I don't mind if you disagree.

@ Not Online!!!:
Why are knights fielded then, and 90% of older Superheavies are not?

I'm not completely sure what you mean with this comment you replied to my text, that I would prefer alternatives to be not just "more firepower" or "cheaper firepower". Would you mind to elaborate?

I get what you mean when you say:
If i pay 2.5 Leman russes for a tank, it should do 2.5x as much work.

I'm just not convinced, that "2.5 x as much work" must always mean "2.5 times the damage output". I would really much prefer it, if you would for example have a more expensive version that ist not just "twice as many wounds, twice as many firepower" but adds another dimension.

To give an example (but it only works for Tallarn were heavy weapons don't suffer from moving) compare the Quad Lascannon Carnodon (140 points) with the Hull Lascannon Annihilator (182 points). The Carnodon is objectively weaker (-1 T, -2W, -1 Lascannon shot as long as the LR drives slow, no tank orders, no Emperors Fist tank company) but adds a new strategic component by being significantly faster (M12'' without losing firepower vs. M5'' or M10'' suffering -2 shots) allowing for a completely different tactical use.

@ Thymais: for the same reasoning I (personally) am not really sold for giving grinding advance and doubletapping to even more tanks. This way they would also just feel like bigger Leman Russes



So just to throw some further ideas at the wall to discuss:

Malcador: one option might (!) be to give him the overdrive rule of the Crassus Armoured Transport, so being able to fire its weapons after advancing. They would still suffer -1 to hit for moving and firing, but if they suffer this either way they might as well hit the gaspedal and see what happens. This way you would get a tank which might have an ork BS when moving but races around with average 13.5''. Enough to not fall back behind chimeras etc. and potentially providing them cover.

Macharius: Since I (again: personal opionion) don't think it can compete whith the similar priced Baneblades in firepower or with the much more cost effective Leman Russ one might as well look for another niche and try him as more of a mobile bunker/LOS blocker. I don't see them getting Inv saves (the last thing we need are even more dice rolls) but what about giving him +1 toughness. Just from a bit of quick mathhammering it would make him a wee bit harder to kill with than the Baneblades with conventional S4, S8 and S9 weapons (the numbers are the amount of hits needed to kill a T9 Macharius vs. a T8 Baneblade):
Demolisher (10/-3/D6): 11.3 vs 13.4
Lascannon (9/-3/D6): 15.1 vs 13.4
Missile Launcher (8/-2/D3): 28.3 vs 22.3
Melter (8/-4/Melterdamage): 14.8 vs. 11.6

Edit: This change would also have no effect on killing them whith mortal wounds

Definitly not enough to make them better than Leman Russes and Baneblades, but these are two ways to give them a slight, situational edge over their more popular brethren. What's your opinion?



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/26 07:59:00


~1300 build and painted 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





You can't give the malcador the durability it would need because it is stuck as a tank without shieldgenerator and not big enough to gain steel behemoth.

This leaves you with firepower.
I pay a small knight in this tank, it should out shoot said knight, which i dosen't, because i can't outtank it.

So the defensive is bad, and can't be buffed appropriately.
The offensive is terrible but could be buffed.

As for the macharius, it needs steel behemoth.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





As far as I now the Macharius has "Steel Behemoth", hasn't it?


And regarding the Malcador: ist still cheaper than a Knight, isn't it? I mean the most expensive Malcador should be the Annihilator + Lascannon sponsons for 280 Points which is something like one of the smaller knights before you add weapons.

But regardless: I don't think it is that good of an idea to compare the Malcador and Macharius to Knights, which again would be INTER faction Balance (and hard due to knights being really good). I think (!) it makes more sense to compare them INTRA faction wise, so for example the LR Battletank, the Malcador Battletank, the Macharius Battletank and the Vanilla Baneblade. My whole point is more: what should happen to give them some reason - as situational as it might be - to be taken instead of LR or BB?
As I said: I don't think it makes much sense to try on the firepower, CC or cheapness front, since that ship has sailed (they would need insane buffs to compete with LR/BB). Therefore I would argument to look for other ways which might be: speed, durability (without Inv. or FnP), non decreasing stats or maybe some fluffy special effect that is not overpowered but merely adds a bit of strategic depth.

~1300 build and painted 
   
Made in ch
Anointed Dark Priest of Chaos





It (malcador) doesn't even perform against a Leman russ.
Also it get's outperformed by amirigers / wardogs allready which are cheaper then it again.

Sure if you want to turn it not into a huge gaping handicap, just into a massive hadnicap, this would need to happen:

-No more detiroration.

-No -1 to hit for any movement at all.

- Same grinding advance for the turret gun/ demolisher, in order to achieve atleast firepower parity, (also hillarious because it has A form of grinding advance, just not the actual usefull one.)

- A command tank version at BS 3+ and capable of ordering other tanks.
Alternatively, command version as inf support, may order infantry around, and or carry a squad with it. (tankriding)

- Can fire even within 1".

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in gb
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




Cardiff

Allowing the Malcador to move at full speed and not suffering a penalty to hit and giving it the Battle Speed ability of moving and firing all (or one?) weapons after Advancing with a -1 penalty seems like an interesting concept. It is an Assault tank after all.

Please Consider The Environment Before Committing Heresy
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Emperor's Children - 2,000 points 
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Collabirator






If I recall the lore correctly, the Malcador used to be a fast battle tank during the great crusade, but by M41 current Malcadors are no faster than a LR. The Macharius, meanwhile, is a discount Baneblade. Practically speaking, both of these are designed to fill the gap between a 170 pt LR and a 500 pt Baneblade, and their current point values reflect that.

Not Online!!! wrote:add the same grinding advance, however allow them to double their firepower of all guns if stationary.
That would make them more into the pillboxes they were supposed to be, atleast the macharius.

The Malcador was intended to be a fast Superheavy:
Maybee allow it to double instead it's maingun and ignore -1 to hit penalties thorugh movement?

Letting the Malcador ignore penalties to shooting while moving is a given (and then shoot when it advances when it has tallarn doctrine, like a titanic vehicle). After all, the tank is almost the size of a land raider. A simple buff to its battle cannon, d6 damage instead of d3, should round it out. This is what the Marcarius has, and their guns look the same.

That doesn't help the other variants, but they just need a points drop. They're almost double the price of a russ. Make the chassis of all Malcador variants be 187 points, putting it almost in proption to a russ wound wise; increase the cost of the main gun on the heavy tank to 25 points, keeping it the same price while giving the defender and annihilator a 13 point drop; and dropping the hidden cost of the Infernus's inferno gun from 112 points to 92, for a total drop of 33 points which means it costs just as much as 3 hellhounds when ignoring secondary weapons.

Giving the Marcharius the ability to double the attack characteristic of all of it's weapons twice would be a nice ability (a shoot twice but each gun must target same unit, like on the russ). Exchanging a movement phase for an additional shooting phase is a big price, but valuable in a gunline army. The Vulkan already has a similar ability, so it's main gun should lose that ability and be changed to heavy 20

I don't think these buffs will make them better than the LR/BB in competitive play, but it should put them in line with other ig tanks for casual games. The Malcador will only have a little bit more firepower than a LR for 40% more points while the Marcharius will be comparable to a BB's shooting for ~100 few points at the cost of it's movement phase. Considering how important movement is 8th, I think that's a fair trade.

Pyroalchi wrote:As far as I now the Macharius has "Steel Behemoth", hasn't it?

And regarding the Malcador: ist still cheaper than a Knight, isn't it? I mean the most expensive Malcador should be the Annihilator + Lascannon sponsons for 280 Points which is something like one of the smaller knights before you add weapons.

But regardless: I don't think it is that good of an idea to compare the Malcador and Macharius to Knights, which again would be INTER faction Balance (and hard due to knights being really good). I think (!) it makes more sense to compare them INTRA faction wise, so for example the LR Battletank, the Malcador Battletank, the Macharius Battletank and the Vanilla Baneblade. My whole point is more: what should happen to give them some reason - as situational as it might be - to be taken instead of LR or BB?
As I said: I don't think it makes much sense to try on the firepower, CC or cheapness front, since that ship has sailed (they would need insane buffs to compete with LR/BB). Therefore I would argument to look for other ways which might be: speed, durability (without Inv. or FnP), non decreasing stats or maybe some fluffy special effect that is not overpowered but merely adds a bit of strategic depth.

He's comparing it to an Armiger knight. But knights move faster and are capable of fighting in melee, while tanks are not, thus I don't think they are really comparable. Still, durability is not the biggest problem these tanks have, a Malcador is proportionally just as tough as a LR. I think shoring up their weaknesses is the best option, namely firepower.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/30 04:02:15


 
   
Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





@ Eipi10: you make some quite compelling arguments, thank you.

regarding the point values I would like to put your proposed changes in an example to get a better view if you don't mind: Due to all the options it is not that easy to get a fair comparison, but to try it lets compare all "Battle Canon" variants with Bolters as secondary weapons:

rules as they are:
Leman Russ Battle Tank + Hull and Sponson HB: 168 points (2d6 x 8/-2/D3, 9 x 5/-1/1, 12 wounds)
Malcador Battle Tank + Hull and Sponson HBs: 236 points (1d6 x 8/-2/D3, 9 x 5/-1/1, 18 wounds)
Macharius Heavy Tank + Sponson HBs: 368 points (2D6 x 8/-2/D6, 6 x 5/-1/1, 6 x 4/0/1, 22 wounds)
Baneblade 434 points (3D6 x 8/-2/3, 6 x 5/-1/1, D6 x 8/-3/D6, 26 wounds)

With your proposed changes
Malcador Battle Tank + Hull and Sponson HBs: 236 points (1d6 x 8/-2/D6, 9 x 5/-1/1, 18 wounds)
Macharius Heavy Tank + Sponson HBs: 368 points (moving: 2D6 x 8/-2/D6, 6 x 5/-1/1, 6 x 4/0/1, 22 wounds)
Macharius standing still: 4D6 x 8/-2/D6, 12 x 5/-1/1, 12x 4/0/1


Hmm. I must say, the changes to the Malcador lool really compelling. The increased damage on the main gun and the option to shoot after advancing with -1 (and without penalty on the normal move) would make it a good alternative to a heavy Russ. Not really more firepower and still limited by not being a tank commander or able to get orders, but it would allow for a faster playstyle with a heavy tank.

Regarding the Macharius I'm a bit conflicted. On the one hand it makes sense, that needing to stand still for the doubletap is a huge price, but on the other hand, the doubletapped damage profile looks really mean. But if I understand you right it would be only allowed to doubletap, if ALL weapons fire at the same target? So this way you would then either waste the 4D6 Battlecannon shots on Infantry or glance of the huge load of Bolter and Stubber shots on a heavy vehicle. Hmm... Might be worth a try?



But summing up: great contribution and it looks as if you put a lot of thought in it. Thanks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/30 07:05:27


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Pragmatic Collabirator






I've always wanted to get a Malcador. I love the WW1 tank aesthetic, but I couldn't justify it with their current rules. I've been mulling over some simple house rules for a few weeks. So do you think these will pass as good rules?
Keep in mind you only get the advance bonus if you have a Tallarn tank. I don't want to give the Malcador the titanic keyword, so the Tallarn doctrine will need to be changed to include it (titanic vehicle or Malcador). I don't think this will unseat the LR in competitive play once you factor in all its tricks, but the base stats should be close now.



I have little experience with the Marcharius. I was thinking each gun would effectively double its shots against its own targeted unit. They don't need to all target the same unit, rather each HB effectively becomes heavy 6.

I know that attack profile looks mean, but compared to a BB with sponsons:

3d6 x 9/-3/3, 1d6 x 10/-3/d6, 2 x 9/-3/d6, 2 x 7/-1/2, 18 x 5/-1/1

It's still worse and still costs about 73% as much. A quick glance tells me it probably shoots at 85% of a BB's level when stationary, so 43% when it moves. Averaging it out, the Marcharius need to move twice each game to stay inline with a BB's shooting. Do you think it would do that each game? I know it's not uncommon for a unit to only move once in a game. And considering how powerful a Marachius is, it should be a priority to avoid and so will have to move more.

In the event the Marcharius moves every turn or every other turn, it will hardly be comparable to a BB. I've never tested this or anything like it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/30 23:10:13


 
   
Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





@ Eipi: I think your proposed Malcador rules look quite good now. It becomes usable without really surpassing the LR/BB. I will definitly keep them in mind and propose them as potential house rule to my opponent - when I finally have finished building and painting my army What I especially like about them is, that it gives the Malcador a different approach to usage compared to the LR by focussing a bit more on its mobility.


Regarding the Macharius: as I said before: I'm undecided. On first sight it looks like really a lot of firepower, but of course you have to stand still. Yet coupled with the long range of the Macharius that would likely not really be a drawback. On the other side as you mentioned, it would still roughly be in the price/firepower range of the Baneblade. I think one would have to test it a bit. Regarding background it would also somehow make sense. As I recall the Macharius was build as kind of a budget Baneblade. With your proposed rules it would get a scaling amount of firepower for fewer costs, but the Baneblade would still have a lot of advantages explaining why the Macharius remained the less popular option (firing decks, Anti-Titan weapons, option to more sponsons, more wounds, mobility without degrading firepower, better CC ability).

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Pragmatic Collabirator






Running the shooting number on the Malcador again, assuming non-turret guns account for 1/3 of it's shooting potential, it would only have 8% more shooting than a LR when it is 43% move expensive. I don't know if that's enough to balance out the movement advantage.

The only lore problem is that this makes the Marcharius into a mobile pillbox; not a true discount Baneblade, which is what the Marcharius really is. Having only 20" of movement is pretty limiting, too. Especially since it would be a priority to avoid, a few inches of positioning movement would help it get as much out of its double shooting as a Baneblade gets out of its normal shooting. Of course, there are times when the Baneblade doesn't move at all or only moves a little bit. That eliminates a grinding advance ability, where it can shoot all of its guns twice as long as it moves under half its maximum distance. I would like to give it something like that to keep it from exclusively pillboxing, but I don't see that rule being balanced unless you reduce the movement to something like 1/3rd instead of 1/2, maybe subtract one for the movement value and then divide by 3 to get an even number. But then you will have to do something about the Tallarn doctrine.
   
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I think the Malcador would be OK that way. About 8% more firepower than a Russ together with its +6 wounds are a fair deal for the additional points paid. I think the Malcador was not really intended as a Baneblade alternative, more as a "Heavy Russ".

Regarding the Macharius: I think one should try to not make it too complicated. And decide what it is intended to be.
A pillbox prefering to stand still? => somehow increase firepower for remaining static
A sturdier alternative designed to take more punishment? => increase toughness and/or wounds and/or save or drop parts of the damge table
A real budget Baneblade? => recalculate the cost so that it fits in the firepower to price range between the Leman Russ and die Baneblade (which it does not at the moment in my opinion)

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Pragmatic Collabirator






For 43% more points? I would think it would need to have about 20% more dakka than a Russ to be viable. For that to happen, the main gun would only need to have slightly more firepower than to Russ's main gun. If you want to make a Heavy Russ, giving it grinding advance (reroll hits on the main gun instead of double shots) should put it inline with the Russ variants. It would lose the movement advantage, but will have 37.5% more firepower.

Reading the wikis, the Marcharius is a budget Baneblade that fills the gap between the Russ and the Baneblade. That's why I thought a double shooting ability would be good. It's just that a half move would give it too much shooting and remaining stationary would change its purpose. Would giving it grinding advance rule (double shooting on all guns) and a 30 point hick fix it? 80% of the price for 85% of the shooting and 50% of the movement.
   
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Macharius is supposed to be a budget baneblade but on the other hand it suits a single purpose better, Baneblade varients are like Swiss army knives. Malcador is a pillbox in 40k and fast tank in 30k.
(sorta psycotic, but they forgot to make the engines proppa, and then apparently remembered to in 8th but it wasn't fast anymore)

I don't put rules forwards here, but I do suggest areas where they could be imposed.

Malcador Prognosis
Spoiler:
Malcador would greatly benefit from being stronger, slightly better armour than a russ(I'm thinking) and more wounds (it's a less compact tank so any incoming round has less chance of doing bad damage so perhaps it degrades slower?) I think giving it grinding advance/beating grinding advance on the back of the head and throwing it into a multcher because tanks ain't got no right to fire a primary twice in a turn.
Also this tank is designed to be a fast tank(in 30k at least( really leaves questions about that casemate in my view), so perhaps it can fire it's ordinance at full speed?(because the engine might have been clapped that tech is still working)

Hell you could bring back fast tank, give it a decent ram/access to close up wargear and have it scooting up the board the case-mate sorta balances against the fast tank rule if your house rules include pointing model's guns at their targets. (not as well as it would if it had armour values for all sides but meh that's 8th, while I'm here: templates)

Perhaps the Malcador could take specialized ammo types to edge out over the russ and give it extra utility. Could be that it has larger storage capacity for ammo, or simply that it's a higher prestige tank and given access to the good stuff. Perhaps it's a more stable firing platform and therefore the vehicle's accuracy is better than a russ.


Macharius Prognosis
Spoiler:
The Macharius should be a cheap super heavy, double the fire-power of a russ, if russ gets grinding advance this thing should too. Otherwise it's just silly. (I mean it has an identical gun, just 2 of them and a bigger turret and heavier platform that seemingly should have better weight distribution, should lend itself to this) Hell it's a more stable firing platform so hitting on +3s instead of 4s shouldn't be out of the question stock. I mean the russ is a very tall tank, platform stability would be an issue for accuracy especially with ordinance weapons.

The Macharius Vanquisher should be a very scary tank hunter(vanquisher should be at least a capable tank hunter(and IMHO should be the best of the russes for general duties at long distance(I mean, it's a high velocity cannon) so there's a bit of rule changing needed there lol), It's got 2x giant cannons giving it a leg up on the original baneblade at long range AT wise(not having to worry about getting into demolisher range, but missing out on 2x las-cannons and an auto-cannon) Possibly less armour, less all round clouting ability. It's a tank killer not a land battleship/battlefortress.


The Vulcan is like a stormlord but has a turret and is not a confused SPG/APC/suppression tank.
(yeah not an issue in 8th apparently because self propelled guns work just like tanks)

It's a tank that gets in close and kills everything that does not have sufficient armour and is in a 45' arc of it's barrels
I mean if its a bit tougher I'd still be balanced by the fact it needs AT support

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2019/10/04 12:24:48


If the GS cult rock drill is a piece of standard imperial mining kit why does it have 3 handles?
Basing-
Buy a pack of earth and fleshtone dry pastels. Scrape it with a knife, sprinkle dust to PVA glue on base.
Conflict on Ardus fiction 40k

Oldmate's Alternate Aeronautica- Cobbled together pilots and 1st gen British Jets

 
   
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Pragmatic Collabirator






 OldMate wrote:
Spoiler:
Macharius is supposed to be a budget baneblade but on the other hand it suits a single purpose better, Baneblade varients are like Swiss army knives. Malcador is a pillbox in 40k and fast tank in 30k.
(sorta psycotic, but they forgot to make the engines proppa, and then apparently remembered to in 8th but it wasn't fast anymore)

I don't put rules forwards here, but I do suggest areas where they could be imposed.

Malcador Prognosis
[spoiler]Malcador would greatly benefit from being stronger, slightly better armour than a russ(I'm thinking) and more wounds (it's a less compact tank so any incoming round has less chance of doing bad damage so perhaps it degrades slower?) I think giving it grinding advance/beating grinding advance on the back of the head and throwing it into a multcher because tanks ain't got no right to fire a primary twice in a turn.
Also this tank is designed to be a fast tank(in 30k at least( really leaves questions about that casemate in my view), so perhaps it can fire it's ordinance at full speed?(because the engine might have been clapped that tech is still working)

Hell you could bring back fast tank, give it a decent ram/access to close up wargear and have it scooting up the board the case-mate sorta balances against the fast tank rule if your house rules include pointing model's guns at their targets. (not as well as it would if it had armour values for all sides but meh that's 8th, while I'm here: templates)

Perhaps the Malcador could take specialized ammo types to edge out over the russ and give it extra utility. Could be that it has larger storage capacity for ammo, or simply that it's a higher prestige tank and given access to the good stuff. Perhaps it's a more stable firing platform and therefore the vehicle's accuracy is better than a russ.


Macharius Prognosis
Spoiler:
The Macharius should be a cheap super heavy, double the fire-power of a russ, if russ gets grinding advance this thing should too. Otherwise it's just silly. (I mean it has an identical gun, just 2 of them and a bigger turret and heavier platform that seemingly should have better weight distribution, should lend itself to this) Hell it's a more stable firing platform so hitting on +3s instead of 4s shouldn't be out of the question stock. I mean the russ is a very tall tank, platform stability would be an issue for accuracy especially with ordinance weapons.

The Macharius Vanquisher should be a very scary tank hunter(vanquisher should be at least a capable tank hunter(and IMHO should be the best of the russes for general duties at long distance(I mean, it's a high velocity cannon) so there's a bit of rule changing needed there lol), It's got 2x giant cannons giving it a leg up on the original baneblade at long range AT wise(not having to worry about getting into demolisher range, but missing out on 2x las-cannons and an auto-cannon) Possibly less armour, less all round clouting ability. It's a tank killer not a land battleship/battlefortress.


The Vulcan is like a stormlord but has a turret and is not a confused SPG/APC/suppression tank.
(yeah not an issue in 8th apparently because self propelled guns work just like tanks)

It's a tank that gets in close and kills everything that does not have sufficient armour and is in a 45' arc of it's barrels
I mean if its a bit tougher I'd still be balanced by the fact it needs AT support
[/spoiler]


Sounds like you know your tanks. And it sounds like FW didn't know what they were doing with the Malador's movement. So right now the rules changes are giving the Malcador 50% more wounds than the Russ; giving it equivalent - if not slightly inferior - shooting power, but 50% more accurate shooting; and giving it the same movement stats as a Russ. That seems to be in line with what you said about the tank.

The Marcharius is a bit tougher to write rules for since it is basically an oversized Russ that's meant to compete with the land-ship that is the Baneblade, at least that's what I get from your description. It simply doesn't have the firepower to really fulfill that role without some special rules writing, not that that is impossible. The current rule change is to give it a Grinding Advance ability that lets every gun shoot twice. A points hike might be in order, too.

To take the basic heavy tank variant, the rules we have now give it 75% more firepower for each battle cannon (d6 damage instead of d3), so 3.5 times the firepower of a Russ on the main gun system. If you bought that in individual Russes, you would equal a Baneblade in cost. Now the Marcharius does not equal a Baneblade in cost because it lacks the same number of secondary weapons and sponson weapons. I think Grinding Advance ability should affect the guns it has, unlike on a Russ, just to give it some boost in secondary firepower. Really I don't think this is a problem because it's not meant to have 11 guns like a Baneblade, just have one good gun as you said. This should give it about 75% of a Baneblade's firepower (my original calculations didn't put enough emphasis on T8 enemies, which the Baneblade is much better against). So with that in mind, the current points cost is probably good, being slightly more than 2 Russes. I think these rules would make it play like the oversized Russ it's meant to be.

The next question is evaluating the main guns themselves:
Each vanquisher cannon is essentially a meltagun/lascannon hybrid. I don't want it to have the same problem as the LR vanquisher, so making each gun have d3 hits might be enough to balance it in relation to the normal battle cannon variant. In fact, the LR vanquisher probably needs that rule change too. It still fires an explosive shell after all, just of a different type.

If the Vulcan will get easier access to double shooting now with GA then keeping its's main gun as heavy 15 is ok. On the move, it will shoot slightly less than a Stormlord, but when it slows down it has even more firepower. I think this is a fair balance considering it is a titan weapon strapped to a heavy tank, even if it is it's the primary weapon for which to while the tank is designed around and it can't do anything else but shoot that gun (no troop transport).

There is one tank you didn't mention, the Marchaius Omega. It has a plasma gun that is not even equal in strength to the heavy plasma guns used by hellblasters. It's supposed to rival a titan plasma gun, like the Vulcan. I would stay just giving it +1 damage on both profiles would fix this. It would be identical to a normal titan plasma gun when shooting normally, but with less overcharge capability. But this would be way better than any other Marcharius variant with its double shooting ability. Maybe it needs a points hick in relation to the other tanks, say +20 points so it will cost more than the vanquister instead of being equal to the Vulcan.

Edit: spelling

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/11 04:42:42


 
   
Made in au
Hardened Veteran Guardsman







Nice Eipi, suits the feel of the tanks, or the feel forgeworld was trying for anyhow, and your changes seem reasonably balanced.

If the GS cult rock drill is a piece of standard imperial mining kit why does it have 3 handles?
Basing-
Buy a pack of earth and fleshtone dry pastels. Scrape it with a knife, sprinkle dust to PVA glue on base.
Conflict on Ardus fiction 40k

Oldmate's Alternate Aeronautica- Cobbled together pilots and 1st gen British Jets

 
   
Made in us
Pragmatic Collabirator






Glad you like the changes. Hopefully others like them too. I wish GW would give them a proper boost though, the guard range needs more diversity. I can't imagine them balking at more FW sales.
   
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The Wastes of Krieg

Probably a moot point about the Omega, you'll be hard-pressed to find one of those. I dare say they are rarer than Gorgons nowadays.
   
Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





@ OldMate and Eipi10: very good ideas indeed. And I also think more diversity would be nice for guard.

Regarding Vanquishers (on whatever platform) I also sometimes think: when it was a much longer barrel shooting a much faster projectile and taking 3.5x as much time to aim and fire, shouldn't it be much more precise?

Just from some quick and dirty mathhammering a +1 to hit would put the LR Vanquisher slightly above the Standard BC on a normal Russ. The Macharius Vanquisher would need more love to get better than the BC Macharius in anti tank duty (+2 to hit makes it better against T8 3+, but still worse against T7 3+)

Either way this increased precision would also make the Vanquisher more reliable.

But again that's just an idea open to discussion

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/14 07:00:19


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DeathKorp_Rider wrote:Probably a moot point about the Omega, you'll be hard-pressed to find one of those. I dare say they are rarer than Gorgons nowadays.

The Omega would receive more benefit from double shooting than the other variants after it's +1 damage. Do you think this isn't enough to warrant a points change?

Pyroalchi wrote:@ OldMate and Eipi10: very good ideas indeed. And I also think more diversity would be nice for guard.

Regarding Vanquishers (on whatever platform) I also sometimes think: when it was a much longer barrel shooting a much faster projectile and taking 3.5x as much time to aim and fire, shouldn't it be much more precise?

Just from some quick and dirty mathhammering a +1 to hit would put the LR Vanquisher slightly above the Standard BC on a normal Russ. The Macharius Vanquisher would need more love to get better than the BC Macharius in anti tank duty (+2 to hit makes it better against T8 3+, but still worse against T7 3+)

Either way this increased precision would also make the Vanquisher more reliable.

But again that's just an idea open to discussion
I never pictured a battlecannon shooting d6 shots myself. I always saw the d6 as a stand-in for templates, the aoe of the cannon shot. But would this be in addition to or instead of the d3 shots? It's an interesting idea. If you're going for realism, I don't know if +250m/s on the shell would take a tank from shooting like a guardsman to shooting like space marine.
   
Made in de
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





@ Eipi: ah, yes that makes a lot more sense (I mean D6 representing the blast template and not really actual shots).
In this line of thought: I always imagined (without any source) that the Vanquisher shells were something like that:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuchtgeschoss#/media/Datei:Obus_501556_fh000022.jpg
having no relevant explosives and only relying on kinetic energy.

Thus the 1 shot of the vanquisher would even make sense, as much as it sucks mathematically.


At the risk of diverting from the original topic: I would not even mind, If they kept the very low shot volume of the Vanquisher, as long as it would finally be able to fullfill its anti-tank role adequatly. So if it is the only "cannon" that does not have a blast template (therefore no D[anything] shots) it might have one or more of the following:
1. better BS (at least against vehicles?)
2. ignores at least one layer of enemies defense (Sv, ISv, FNP, Void shields, Bodyguard abilities can not intercept Vanquisher shells)
=> the last two might give them a situational advantage against shielddrone spamming Tau or Knights, but I'm unsure if it is to strong
3. wounds vehicles on 2+ (similar to the Banewolf vs. Non vehicles)
4. Chance of catastrophic hit for example through the Laser Destroyer damage rule
=> "Throw a dice after causing damage: 1-2: 1D6, on 3-5: 2D6, on 6: 3D6"



Some mathhammering what that would mean in comparison:
for BS 4 Leman Russ vs. a T8, Sv3+ target
Spoiler:
Standard BC: 1.167
Standard Vanquisher: 0.931
BS 3 Vanquisher: 1.242
Vanquisher wounds on 2+: 1.552
Laser destroyer Vanquisher: 1.337 damage with large spike damage


Spoiler:
the same vs. a T5-T7, 3+ target
Standard BC: 1.556
Standard Vanquisher: 1.242
BS 3 Vanquisher: 1.656
Vanquisher wounds on 2+: 1.552
Laser destroyer Vanquisher: 1.782 damage with large spike damage



For BS4 Macharius Battlecannons vs. Macharius Vanquishers vs a T8, Sv3+ target
Spoiler:
Standard BC: 2.333
Standard Vanquisher: .2.483
BS 3 Vanquisher: 3.311
Vanquisher wounds on 2+: 3.104
Laser destroyer Vanquisher: 3.565 damage with large spike damage



For BS4 Macharius Battlecannons vs. Macharius Vanquishers vs a T5 -T7, Sv3+ target
Spoiler:
Standard BC: 3.111
Standard Vanquisher: 2.483
BS 3 Vanquisher: 3.311
Vanquisher wounds on 2+: 3.104
Laser destroyer Vanquisher: 3.565 damage with large spike damage

=> each of those changes would make the Vanquisher significantly better than the BC against heavily armoured targets while being less dominant against lighter vehicles and inferior against infantry etc. The "laser destructor" variant is somehow the most freaky due to its potentially enormous spike damage paired with a good chance to miss or only do minor damage. But this might even be an adequate representation of a relatively small, high penetrating AP shell making a hole into a vehicle. It might miss all vital parts and do only minor damage, but it might as well travel right through the engine block, fuel tank, ammo storage and Crew.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/15 08:10:43


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Pragmatic Collabirator






@Pyroalchi

I always thought vanquishers fired HEAT rounds. I wonder if GW has ever thought about this before. The wiki says it can shoot both, for what its worth.

I'm not sure about your math hammer on the standard vanquisher. I get much lower numbers than you (~.7 for the first one and .97 for the second). You do make a good point that doubling the number of shots would make it much better than a normal LR without any good scaling.

As far as your suggestions go, BS 3 doesn't seem like a good enough improvement, it's still weaker than a BC. 2+ wounding removes the value of weapon strength. I would say rerolling all failed wound rolls would do much the same thing, mathematically, but I know a lot of people think the game has too many rerolls. Catastrophic damage is simply too unreliable for competitive play, but I do think you are on to something, a damage boost is probably the way to go. Melta damage might be the best option, the highest of two dice for a normal LR vanquisher. Unfortunately, it only does .94 wounds on a Repulsor, not enough. 2d6 damage would be too much, I think 6 damage on average would be just about perfect, dealing 1.25 damage on average. The Marcharius, meanwhile, needs to do about 8 damage to do 2.25 damage, over the 2.04 damage of the BC. I'm not sure what the best way to reach those averages with dice is.
   
 
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