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pm713 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

It's more that Cawl spent 10k years to finish what the Emperor did not because the Big E was rushing to get everything set up for his win condition while the gods where dealing with the upheaval of Slaanesh's birth.

Which is weird in itself. Cawl who (at least to my knowledge) lacked any significant influence managed to make Marines +1. Fabulous Bile worked for longer, had access to as many samples as he needed, had significant pull with a massive amount of military forces and got nowhere near as close.

I feel like the controversy only exists because the community largely misrepresents what what was changed and secondly has pre-assumed that what Cawl is doing is an improvement beyond the Emperor's work.

What Cawl added:

Sinew Coils - literally lacing a space marine's muscles with metallic coils which magnify their muscles natural strength while also slightly reinforcing the muscle against damage

Magnificant - half of an organ originally found the the primarchs genetic template (literally copy+pasted from the primarch genetic blueprint), increases marine growth and amplifies function of other marine implants

Belisarian Furnace - organ that produces chemicals like combat stims which are injected directly into a marines heart during moments of extreme trauma

Fresh Geneseed

Out of 4 additions, 2 are literally just copies of the Emperor's work and the other two are not nearly as complex.

Regarding the second point, a lot of the community has concluded that the marines were made perfect by the Emperor and for a random Magos to improve them is rediculous, but that line of thinking is presupposing that the marines were actually made to the highest potential possible by the Emperor. However we already know that isn't true given that the Custodes are well beyond the ability of basic marines who are themselves lesser than the primarchs, so the idea that marines were the Emperor's best work is nonsense.

Additionally, with the more recent Horus Heresy lore regarding the Emperor intending to largely erase the legions after the Great Crusade and the Human Webway Project were complete (personally not a fan of this lore, but it exists), it's not unreasonable that the marines were intentionally made lesser to avoid the same problem which occurred with the Thunder Warriors given that they proved to be resource intensive to eliminate. The last thing you want are entire legions of roided up Thunder Warriors+ that you need to clean up.

 Crimson wrote:



The old marines are being phased out. They're getting the upgrade. The codex literally says this. The only old marines remaining are those who are too cowardly to face the Rubicon.

That's a pretty loaded/inaccurate way of describing it.

All the lore surrounding the Rubicon upgrade make the process out to still be somewhat high risk and labor intensive, requiring extensive surgery and a long recovery period.
It makes no sense for a chapter to upgrade anyone below their most vaunted members as doing so risks not just a temporary loss of manpower but, more importantly, the potential to permanently lose seasoned warriors should they not come out of the process alive.

Now obviously out of setting it's an excuse for GW to pick and choose who they release updated Primaris kits for, while also throwing a bone to Firstborn players

BrianDavion wrote:ohh of course that pic is rediculas it's why I never dignify crimson with a response when he posts it.

The pic isn't really ridiculous though, just Crimson's interpretation of it. The quote is clearly meant to foreshadow that there will come a time when all marines will be Primaris, either due to the replacement of casualties with new Primaris battle brothers or due to existing veterans being upgraded.

Calgar's words ring 100% true in setting as it's not in the nature of space marines to embrace weakness and the tabletop advantages of Firstborn (wargear flexibility, access to existing armored support, etc) don't seem to align with the in setting view of Primaris as being equally flexible through different application. The in setting view post-"ugrading is a possibility" seems to treat Primaris almost like a new mark of armor rather than an executioners of the old ways.

Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
ohh of course that pic is rediculas it's why I never dignify crimson with a response when he posts it.

Stellar argumentation, mate!

Your stance is that there is no evidence for the old marines being phased out... providing you bury your head in the sand and ignore the evidence!

It's in the codex, it is the what the codex tells us. In the fluff it is perfectly clear that old marines are either dying or being upgraded. They're going away, there really is no ambiguity about it. The only question is how long it will take for this to affect the rules and the models being sold.

My issue with your treatment of the quote is that it doesn't imply weakness/failure on the part of remaining Firstborn, nor does it imply this change to full Primaris is happening any time soon.

Do I agree that it will happen? Yes, but only after GW decide that Firstborn don't cover their asociated sales costs, the overall GW SKU count needs to be decreased, and the Primaris range is in a state where the majority of marine players will be accepting of the change.
I don't know when that'll occur but I think we have a couple more Primaris range expansions (Gravis variants, Techmarines, and non-compliant chapter units in particular) before we see all Firstborn go away.