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Hi Guys

I recently watched a bat rep in which they stated that if multiple things can happen at the end of "xxx phase" the controlling player picks the order of operation in which they happen.

Strategem: Spirit Shield - Use this stratagem at the end of your movement phase

Webway strike: A unit in the webway can emerge at the end of any of your Movement phases

I have always understood this to play that as the unit is deployed at the end of the movement phase. it cannot also have spirit shield applied to it as that needs to be activated also at the end of the movement phase. However the recent thing I watch kind of makes it obvious that both should be able to apply.. Unit deploys first, then spirirt shield is applied. then end of turn.

I cant put my finger on this but I have a feeling this was covered by an FAQ but cant find it..

Anyone able to offer some insight ?

BRB FAQ, Page 9, Bottom Left

Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the end of my Movement phase, can I then use any Stratagems that are used ‘during your Movement phase’? A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.

That is not the same question

My interpretation is that the second stratagem does not state "during the movement phase" but "at the end of the movement phase"

The strategem specifically states it is used at the end of the movement phase therefore the question does not apply(because we are not asking about strategems using "during the movement phase" wording)

And even if we did, the "unless the startegem specifically says otherwise" kicks in because the wording used is not "during the movement phase"

Sequencing is used to order things that need to happen at the same time. You cannot use Spirit Shield on a unit that is not on the battlefield. You therefore cannot state you want to use Spirit Shield on a unit that is being deployed via Webway Strike because it is not on the battlefield before the End of Your Movement Phase. Basically, a set of Sequenced actions should be able to happen in any order. If any item is depended on a different one happening first, it isn't an action you are trying to do at the same time.

GW has only allowed exceptions to this for rules that key off an event that happens at the End of a Phase. For example, you can use Auspex Scan to shoot at a unit deployed at the End of a Phase.

What about when you use a stratagems at the end of the fight phase to fight again and you pile in / consolidate into another unit. That stops the end of the fight phase from even happening as the unit you moved into gets to fight back ...

I bring this up because I think it may be relevant,,, not sure how,,, but it could be XD.

Another question. What happens if one player says "I will play this stratagem thet lets give X ability to a unit at the end of the movement phase" are they allowed to use it against an oponents unit that deep striked... I was under the impression that the answer to that would be yes, because its not a during the movement phase stratagem its an "end" of the movement phase one ?

i.e. this is the way I see it.

You declare you will use the stratagem at the end of the movement phase. You do not need to declare the target until the stratagem triggers.

You then decide to deploy your deepstrikers first (because of sequencing)

Then you trigger the stratagem you already declared targeting the now very existing unit that deep striked...

Whats wrong with that ?


I don't know, I am just throwing out thoughts here.

 Type40 wrote:
What about when you use a stratagems at the end of the fight phase to fight again and you pile in / consolidate into another unit. That stops the end of the fight phase from even happening as the unit you moved into gets to fight back ...

The other unit fighting back is a reaction triggered by the End of Phase action, which GW allows. Otherwise, if the unit could have fight earlier, it would have to before the End of the Fight Phase.

Another question. What happens if one player says "I will play this stratagem thet lets give X ability to a unit at the end of the movement phase" are they allowed to use it against an oponents unit that deep striked... I was under the impression that the answer to that would be yes, because its not a during the movement phase stratagem its an "end" of the movement phase one ?

i.e. this is the way I see it.

You declare you will use the stratagem at the end of the movement phase. You do not need to declare the target until the stratagem triggers.

You then decide to deploy your deepstrikers first (because of sequencing)

Then you trigger the stratagem you already declared targeting the now very existing unit that deep striked...

Whats wrong with that ?


I don't know, I am just throwing out thoughts here.

This quickly runs into gaminess. I would think anything you couldn't have done if only one action was happening should be allowed because of Sequencing. It is not intended on being a way to do things you couldn't do, just a way to resolve how to do two or more things that are supposed to happen at the same time.

This quickly runs into gaminess. I would think anything you couldn't have done if only one action was happening should be allowed because of Sequencing. It is not intended on being a way to do things you couldn't do, just a way to resolve how to do two or more things that are supposed to happen at the same time.

That is a fair point. However, as a long time player of magic and other board games, I think I would allow it if someone did this against me. Taking advantage of sequencing is pretty common in a lot of games. It's a bit gamy yes, but it also seems fair. To some extent, we all do some gamey things in 40k,,, it is a game after all. most of us do like to find obtuse interactions and cool abilities. I honestly find this use of rules less gamey then a Harlies player who uses coat of hidden knives and then gives their opponent -3 to hit the guy, but as infuriating as that is, it is a part of the game.

There is precedence from other rules in the game (i.e. not needing to declare the target of a psychic ability until after it is fully manifested).
I guess what I'd like to know is if GW says you have to choose the targets of a stratagem when you pay for it / declare it or whether or not you can wait on it.
For now, i'll just leave it up to my opponent.

 alextroy wrote:
Sequencing is used to order things that need to happen at the same time. You cannot use Spirit Shield on a unit that is not on the battlefield. You therefore cannot state you want to use Spirit Shield on a unit that is being deployed via Webway Strike because it is not on the battlefield before the End of Your Movement Phase. Basically, a set of Sequenced actions should be able to happen in any order. If any item is depended on a different one happening first, it isn't an action you are trying to do at the same time.

GW has only allowed exceptions to this for rules that key off an event that happens at the End of a Phase. For example, you can use Auspex Scan to shoot at a unit deployed at the End of a Phase.

Okay, lets take that and apply it to the following example:

I use webway strike to deploy a unit of wraiths.
The next thing I do is deploy the spirit seer using the relic(forget the name)

Now I have a valid target for the spirit link strat correct??

Maybe because I have also played magic it seems the "end of phase" lasts for as long as there are valid things you can do.
I think the FAQ is tackling an issue where some strategems let you move egain etc in your movement phase to stop things DS and than moving/deploying. The focus of the wording in the faw seems to disallow stratagems which can be performed "in your movement phase".

It feels like it should work.

Im being a devils advocate here a little bit. As explained I have always accepted this to mean you cannot DS and spirit link but looking at it from a different perspective I have changed my mind and feel it should work.

I am with you on this,
When I read the FAQ related to this I immediately thought "of course, the end of phase step is not the same as the during the phase step, wasn't that obvious " XD.

I.e. if it says do it at the end of the phase, sequence it in the order you want. If it says during the phase... too late.

If it didn't work like that. The harlies stratagem "Heroes Path" which lets you deploy units at the end of your opponents movement phase wouldn't work. You have to make a decision about where to deploy them at the end of your opponents movement phase. If they are also deep-striking, that would mean they would have to declare where they are deepstriking before me if they chose to go second... and thats just a complicated mess, my decisions on targets/locations/effects of an ability or stratagem happen when its triggered... I think that's really the only way it makes sense. And what happens if my opponent wants to play an end of phase stratagem after that ? do I tell them they arn't allowed... they pick sequencing order ... I guess they could then decide to do it before me when I declare it ,,, so at that point can they do something to react to me deploying,,, like i don't know deny me an objective by deploying their own deep strikes... this seems reasonable to me... it is not happening at the same time, decisions are being made about target locations when the stratagems./abilities are being triggered ... people can react and use their own end of phase abilities against each other... why not sequence your own...

what happens if two people play a "fight again" stratagem... are you going to tell the other player they cant because you already played yours at the end of the phase?? I think my oponent would be pretty pissed off if I was like "now that I got to fight you, you are too late to use a stratagem to fight again with your bezerkers." and if we made them declare there target before hand,,, id obviously fight the unit they declared... that also doesn't seem fair.

I think it only makes sense that it should be ok to do this.

There is already precedence that the end of a phase can be extended for various reasons (i.e. a lot of stratagems themselves). so I do not see why not.

But again, if a play group finds this too gamey , i'd refrain from it... i know my play group would be fine with it though,,, cuz after 40k we usually go play some other game,,, often magic which is literally a game about manipulating the sequencing rules XD.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
p.s. split second for the win XD

Nothing in the sequencing rule says that multiple rules happening at the same time, still happen at the same time when the player whose turn it is decides the order. The word sequence means something happens first, and something else later. So yes, its possible to use a stratagem which is used at the end of phase X, on a unit which arrives at the end of phase X, because i, as the player whose turn it is, decide the order of operations.

 p5freak wrote:
Nothing in the sequencing rule says that multiple rules happening at the same time, still happen at the same time when the player whose turn it is decides the order. The word sequence means something happens first, and something else later. So yes, its possible to use a stratagem which is used at the end of phase X, on a unit which arrives at the end of phase X, because i, as the player whose turn it is, decide the order of operations.

Agreed, this is how it works.

Caveat. Yo would be paying 4 CP in order to do this fyi. 1 cp for spirit host detatchement, 1 cp for webway strike and 2 cp for spirit link.

I think thats a fair price and is not a game braking ability. Its not like you can turn up T1 move with quicken and the charge.