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Bringing the power level just a nudge down and trying to level things out. Some successor chapter buffs and changes snuck in as well.

Space Marines
Space Marines Stratagem - Chapter Master: 2CP -> 3CP

Space Marines Stratagem - Duty Eternal: 1CP -> 1/2CP If the target of this Stratagem has a ten or more wounds remaining when this Stratagem is used it costs 2CP.

Space Marines Stratagem - Suppression Fire: 2CP -> 3CP

Salamanders
Salamanders Stratagem - Self Sacrifice: 2CP 1CP

Imperial Fists
Imperial Fists - Legacy of Dorn: Whilst the Devastator Doctrine is active, when resolving an attack made with a Heavy weapon by a model with this ability against a VEHICLE or BUILDING unit, add 1 to the Damage characteristic of that weapon add +1 to Wound rolls for that attack.

Iron Hands
Iron Hands - Calculated Fury: Whilst the Devastator Doctrine is active, models with this ability do not suffer the penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons. In addition, whilst the Devastator Doctrine is active, when resolving an attack made with a Heavy weapon by a model with this ability, re-roll a hit roll of 1. when resolving an Overwatch attack made by a model with this tactic, a hit roll of 5 or 6 scores a hit.

Iron Hands - The Flesh is Weak: When a model with this tactic would lose a wound, roll one D6; on a 6 that wound is not lost. When resolving an Overwatch attack made by a model with this tactic, a hit roll of 5 or 6 scores a hit. In addition, models with this tactic that have a damage table are considered to have double the number of wounds remaining for the purposes of determining what row to use on that damage table.

Ultramarines
Ultramarines Relic - Seal of Oath: At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins, select one enemy unit. You can re-roll hit rolls and wound rolls for attacks made by models in friendly <CHAPTER> units against that enemy unit, whilst that friendly unit is within 6" of a model with this Relic.

Raven Guard
Raven Guard Stratagem - False Flight: 2CP -> 3CP

Raven Guard Warlord Trait - Master of Ambush: At the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins, if this Warlord is on the battlefield you can select one other friendly RAVEN GUARD INFANTRY unit on the battlefield. Remove that unit and this Warlord from the battlefield, and set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" from the enemy deployment zone and more than 9" from any enemy models (if both players have abilities that redeploy units before the first turn begins, roll off; the winner chooses who redeploys their units first). Units redeployed this way cannot charge on the first battle round.

White Scars
White Scars Stratagem - Fierce Rivalries: 1CP -> 2CP

White Scars Warlord Trait - Master of Snares: When an enemy INFANTRY or BEAST unit within 1" of this Warlord is chosen to Fall Back, you can roll one D6; on a 4+ that unit cannot Fall Back this turn.

Successor Chapters
Master Artisans
When a unit with this tactic fires Overwatch or is chosen to shoot or fight with, you can re-roll a single hit roll and you can re-roll a single wound roll. Once per phase you can re-roll a single wound roll for this unit.

Long-range Marksmen
Add 3" to the Range characteristic of ranged weapons models with this tactic are equipped with.
Add 6" to the range of Rapid-Fire and Heavy Weapons.

Rapid Assault
Models with this tactic do not suffer the penalty for Advancing and firing Assault weapons.
Add 3" to the range of all Assault weapons. Re-roll Advance rolls of 1.

So, just curbstomp Iron Hands then? I understand nerfing some abilities, but nerfing all of the best tools between the two books is massively overkill.

Also, Chapter Master is fine at 2cp. Consider how many chapters have access to a named character that provides the Chapter Master benefit for free, as well as getting a relic and some other special ability on top of that. (Some, like Guilliman, even *give extra* Command Points instead.) At 3CP, it's just too expensive to be useful.

Other than that, the rules for successor chapters just seem confusing and unnecessarily complicated. I get what you're going for, but it's way over the top and unnecessarily messy.

EDIT: There are a couple changes I think are good here. Making Duty Eternal cost extra for 10+ wound dreads is a good change, though I think it could just be if it has a starting wounds characteristic of 10+ to avoid unnecessary complications.

Waaaghpower wrote:
So, just curbstomp Iron Hands then? I understand nerfing some abilities, but nerfing all of the best tools between the two books is massively overkill.

Also, Chapter Master is fine at 2cp. Consider how many chapters have access to a named character that provides the Chapter Master benefit for free, as well as getting a relic and some other special ability on top of that. (Some, like Guilliman, even *give extra* Command Points instead.) At 3CP, it's just too expensive to be useful.

Other than that, the rules for successor chapters just seem confusing and unnecessarily complicated. I get what you're going for, but it's way over the top and unnecessarily messy.

EDIT: There are a couple changes I think are good here. Making Duty Eternal cost extra for 10+ wound dreads is a good change, though I think it could just be if it has a starting wounds characteristic of 10+ to avoid unnecessary complications.

It's not really a curb stomp is it? Iron Hands lose the re-roll 1s for heavy weapons and if they were to ever go out of Devastator Doctrine they'll lose the Overwatch on 5s, but they can get re-roll 1s back by taking Captains which are quite good and they should be staying in Dev Doctrine all game if you are playing them "right".

I really love nerfs, sorry if you hate them but there are very few factions with free rules this good, I have suggested nerfs for those as well. SM are overperforming they need to be reined in. At the end of the day any OP rules will just have to be shown through pts on other units, which hurts people that want to use those units but not necessarily the OP free rules. Like Assault Centurions, good or nah? T1 charge = amazing, T3 charge = amazing because they have an insane amount of dakka, but more fair. In case you play SM I really urge you to try out 18 Assault Centurions, proxy if you can find an opponent that'll let you. The math on these boys is very, very good.

I think most people would jump at a relic that improves the durability of nearby vehicles by 25%, the Iron Stone is still quite good, the only one that might be too big a nerf is the Master of Snares, but engaging two units and with a re-roll you have a 70% chance to keep one or more units locked. I'd rather over nerf one tiny little WL trait than have one that is OP, you still have 11 other WL traits.

Chapter Master is absolutely insane, it not only works against negative hit modifiers now it also got vastly cheaper and it was one of the best Codex SM Stratagems in the previous codex (low bar I know). I am not responsible for any Unique characters being underpriced, the nerfs required would be for another thread (15-20 as a start for RG and IH). You are getting 14% more shots relative to re-roll 1s when you re-roll 1s and 2s and much more against units with hit modifiers. With the exception of Iron Hands and Salamanders you should always bring a chapter master.

I'd appreciate a list of exactly what you think is fair and what you think is unfair, is the Duty Eternal nerf the only thing you think is needed to make SM fair or do you think that nerfs are required, but they should be smaller?

I can understand some of them but some of them feel more about preventing feel bads for the opponent over actually resolving an actual balance problem.

The Chapter Master Strategum I think is priced right given the premium Marinea pay for weapons they just can't afford to see 50% failure to hit rates and be playable.

Duty Eternal i really thibk it's been blown into a boogy man by the IronHands Supliment, without that it's not really been a massive issue, but I'm willing to be proven wrong with some actual comparable units not codex suckfest dreadnaughts.

The IronHands changes seem to tone down the utter nonsense that GW produced to a manageable level.
The only one that's maybe a bit over nerfed is the student of history but it's a wonky rule that breaks so much of the base mechanics it might be easier to nerf it to unplayable than spend months trying to finess a solution.

The master of abuse nerf seems uncalled for, if its really an issue set a maximum number of wounds in the unit.

The whitescars warlord trait while annoying should probably just be keyworded to infantry or such, snaring a flyer, tank, monster, dreadnaught is a but WTF.

The sucessor chapters thing is just way to complex it's too much wall of text.

Ice_can wrote:
I can understand some of them but some of them feel more about preventing feel bads for the opponent over actually resolving an actual balance problem.

The Chapter Master Strategum I think is priced right given the premium Marinea pay for weapons they just can't afford to see 50% failure to hit rates and be playable.

Duty Eternal i really thibk it's been blown into a boogy man by the IronHands Supliment, without that it's not really been a massive issue, but I'm willing to be proven wrong with some actual comparable units not codex suckfest dreadnaughts.

The IronHands changes seem to tone down the utter nonsense that GW produced to a manageable level.
The only one that's maybe a bit over nerfed is the student of history but it's a wonky rule that breaks so much of the base mechanics it might be easier to nerf it to unplayable than spend months trying to finess a solution.

The master of abuse nerf seems uncalled for, if its really an issue set a maximum number of wounds in the unit.

The whitescars warlord trait while annoying should probably just be keyworded to infantry or such, snaring a flyer, tank, monster, dreadnaught is a but WTF.

The sucessor chapters thing is just way to complex it's too much wall of text.

To a degree you're right I am mostly informed by internet rumours ATM because of the newness of the codex and supplements.

What premium do Space Marines pay for their weapons? If it only affected Tacticals and Assault Marines you'd have a point, but with the increased AP on most weapons you'll be using most of the AP-0/-1/-2 weapons are actually undercosted.

It's not just Iron Hands, the math on the Stratagem is really strong, regardless of what Chapter you play, especially against flat 2 damage weapons. It's also in part the feels bad and it being a gotcha Stratagem which I hate. I should probably go back and suggest a nerf or change Necron Quantum Deflection Stratagem as well. I always tell my opponents my Stratagems, but there are just so goddamn many with this release, I don't think it's fair to "get" your opponents with one of your 40 Stratagems. In terms of CP effectiveness, it shouldn't really save you from more than 3 wounds at most when it's only 1 CP, so you can wait till your Dreadnought is down to 10 wounds to use it and it'll still be a decently effective Stratagem. It just won't be a blow-out when you spend 1 measly CP and negate the shooting from a Knight.

Student of History still lets you get out of combat without taking damage, it still lets you move 3" around models even in base contact to get in and smash a character, I don't think it's useless.

I changed Master of Snares to 4+ but it only works against BEASTS and INFANTRY instead of 5+ against all units from the previous iteration and 4+ against everything in the supplement.

Marine lascannons 25 points guard lascannon,
20.
Marine missile Launcher 20 points, Guard 15 points

Marines pay a 25% avarage points premium and get a 16% increase in hit rate base you still have to wound and they still get a save. GW's logic here is dubious at best.

The strategum should probably be changed to the iron stone effect of -1 damage instead of half damage.

I would have rather they actually fixed the base rules of codex dreadnaughts with say 2+ armour save but they did what they did

Ice_can wrote:
Marine lascannons 25 points guard lascannon,
20.
Marine missile Launcher 20 points, Guard 15 points

Marines pay a 25% avarage points premium and get a 16% increase in hit rate base you still have to wound and they still get a save. GW's logic here is dubious at best.

The strategum should probably be changed to the iron stone effect of -1 damage instead of half damage.

I would have rather they actually fixed the base rules of codex dreadnaughts with say 2+ armour save but they did what they did

Marines hit 4/6 times, so for every 120 pts of lascannons they get 6 shots which results in 4 hits. Astra Militarum hit 3/6 times, so for every 120 pts they get 8 shots which results in 4 hits. The premium is equal to the benefit of having 33% more hits. 17% of your dice rolls will result in hits, but it's the relative not the absolute number of hits that matters. Knowing that do you agree that Marines should not get an OP re-roll Stratagem?

The Iron Stone is 5+ FNP now I don't want to confuse the two effects, it's okay that it's good Dreadnoughts are cool. I don't want to kill the things I'm suggesting changes for, just increase external and external balance.

I removed my suggestion of being able to take three Successor Traits, even if one of them needed to be a subsidiary one that didn't jell with the other two it was too wordy and I'd rather just improve the bad rules and make them all more or less on par with eachother instead of buffing combinations even a little when they seem to be alright already.

 vict0988 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Marine lascannons 25 points guard lascannon,
20.
Marine missile Launcher 20 points, Guard 15 points

Marines pay a 25% avarage points premium and get a 16% increase in hit rate base you still have to wound and they still get a save. GW's logic here is dubious at best.

The strategum should probably be changed to the iron stone effect of -1 damage instead of half damage.

I would have rather they actually fixed the base rules of codex dreadnaughts with say 2+ armour save but they did what they did

Marines hit 4/6 times, so for every 120 pts of lascannons they get 6 shots which results in 4 hits. Astra Militarum hit 3/6 times, so for every 120 pts they get 8 shots which results in 4 hits. The premium is equal to the benefit of having 33% more hits. 17% of your dice rolls will result in hits, but it's the relative not the absolute number of hits that matters. Knowing that do you agree that Marines should not get an OP re-roll Stratagem?

The Iron Stone is 5+ FNP now I don't want to confuse the two effects, it's okay that it's good Dreadnoughts are cool. I don't want to kill the things I'm suggesting changes for, just increase external and external balance.

I removed my suggestion of being able to take three Successor Traits, even if one of them needed to be a subsidiary one that didn't jell with the other two it was too wordy and I'd rather just improve the bad rules and make them all more or less on par with eachother instead of buffing combinations even a little when they seem to be alright already.

If it's 2CP or 3CP it's still going to be a thing with -2 to hit in the game alitoc flyers kinda make it mandatory.

It was Duty eternal could have been reduced to -1 damage instead of half damage as it weirdly seems to affect anti-tank weapons worse than the already spammed D2 weapons.

IMHO Seal of Oath is fine. remember it's a relic. and at the end of the day it allows you to re-roll to hits and wounds against a SINGLE TARGET. this is only an issue if the person playing against the space marine has a "all my eggs in one basket" approuch

I suggest ultramarines should re roll ones in all doctrines for their given weapons. So, re roll 1 to hit and +1 to armor piercing in each doctrine.

It would be called ultra doctrine or ultimate doctrine! (Or just be the third faction trait)


This would be in addition to their currrent one.

BrianDavion wrote:
IMHO Seal of Oath is fine. remember it's a relic. and at the end of the day it allows you to re-roll to hits and wounds against a SINGLE TARGET. this is only an issue if the person playing against the space marine has a "all my eggs in one basket" approuch

What does it matter whether it's a relic? If anything relics are easier to spam so it should be worse than a WL trait, the Astra Militarum Old Grudges does the exact same thing as Seal of Oath, except only for wound rolls and that's the best or second best AM WL trait. Seal of Oath is absolutely insane, if you are playing UM you should be bringing this relic. It's not about all eggs in one basket, even just a 200 pt unit it's amazing against. Maybe if it was locked to characters it'd be fine, but as it is officially it's way too good. With re-rolls for both hits and wounds it would be fine if it was exclusively for the relic bearer instead of an aura.

when Raven Guard are out there winning events, sure offer a nerf, but currently....no.
Yes, a first turn charge is possible, but it's not that difficult to negate. Not to mention, if they get seized on....bye bye infiltrating unit.

 bullyboy wrote:
when Raven Guard are out there winning events, sure offer a nerf, but currently....no.
Yes, a first turn charge is possible, but it's not that difficult to negate. Not to mention, if they get seized on....bye bye infiltrating unit.

How do you negate a 4" charge? Bye infiltrating unit? When they are 24 T5 wounds at -1 to hit, 1+ sv? They might even start out of LOS and they can walk through walls. When getting charged gives them the equivalent of 48 thunder hammer attacks? When they fire a bazillion shots in overwatch and possibly have flamers? RG came second and third after one and two IH lists respectively.

Edit: Assault Cents aren't infantry which makes them way worse, it's still far too crazy a WL trait, top 10 in the game.

 vict0988 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
when Raven Guard are out there winning events, sure offer a nerf, but currently....no.
Yes, a first turn charge is possible, but it's not that difficult to negate. Not to mention, if they get seized on....bye bye infiltrating unit.

How do you negate a 4" charge? Bye infiltrating unit? When they are 24 T5 wounds at -1 to hit, 1+ sv? They might even start out of LOS and they can walk through walls. When getting charged gives them the equivalent of 48 thunder hammer attacks? When they fire a bazillion shots in overwatch and possibly have flamers? RG came second and third after one and two IH lists respectively.

Edit: Assault Cents aren't infantry which makes them way worse, it's still far too crazy a WL trait, top 10 in the game.

lol, by screening with cheap units, or maybe not deploying at front of deployment zone?
The WL trait is fine, yes it's really good, but it basically makes the RG what they are....what they need to do, if anything, is change Centurions to Monster or Dreadnought. They are NOT Infantry and should not get the benefit of that keyword. Aggressors are pushing it too, but not as obnoxious as Cents. You don't kill the trait because of one offending unit, you nerf the ability of the unit to use the trait.

You could just modify the trait by making it Infantry with no more than 3 wounds per model (or 2 if you are really concerned about Aggressors too, but i think that would be taking it too far). Simple fix without having to fully nerf the trait.

 bullyboy wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
when Raven Guard are out there winning events, sure offer a nerf, but currently....no.
Yes, a first turn charge is possible, but it's not that difficult to negate. Not to mention, if they get seized on....bye bye infiltrating unit.

How do you negate a 4" charge? Bye infiltrating unit? When they are 24 T5 wounds at -1 to hit, 1+ sv? They might even start out of LOS and they can walk through walls. When getting charged gives them the equivalent of 48 thunder hammer attacks? When they fire a bazillion shots in overwatch and possibly have flamers? RG came second and third after one and two IH lists respectively.

Edit: Assault Cents aren't infantry which makes them way worse, it's still far too crazy a WL trait, top 10 in the game.

lol, by screening with cheap units, or maybe not deploying at front of deployment zone?
The WL trait is fine, yes it's really good, but it basically makes the RG what they are....what they need to do, if anything, is change Centurions to Monster or Dreadnought. They are NOT Infantry and should not get the benefit of that keyword. Aggressors are pushing it too, but not as obnoxious as Cents. You don't kill the trait because of one offending unit, you nerf the ability of the unit to use the trait.

You could just modify the trait by making it Infantry with no more than 3 wounds per model (or 2 if you are really concerned about Aggressors too, but i think that would be taking it too far). Simple fix without having to fully nerf the trait.

I'm sorry I don't play AM otherwise your suggestion was great. My 220 pt character relocates d3 units but they cannot charge, similar WL traits don't allow you to move more than the HQ and not outside the deployment zone. It's fantastically busted. It's a 2 CP strat that got nerfed. should all WL traits cost 1cp and be worth 3 or just SM?