Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was just looking at the newest preview for Phoenix Rising and one of the army bonuses makes all Poison Weapons deal +1 damage on a to-wound roll of 6+.

My question is, how would that work against multi-wound models?

For example, let's say I'm firing 10 Splinter Rifles at Primaris Marines (with 2 wounds) in rapid-fire range.
Let's say that the rifles get 16 hits and 8 wounds - including 2 sixes.

Which wounds are resolved first, the ones that deal 1 damage or the ones that deal 2 damage?

It makes a difference because if the Primaris player resolves the 1-damage wounds first, it means it's possible for a Primaris model to be left on just 1 wound (effectively rendering one of the subsequent 2-damage wounds pointless).

 vipoid wrote:
Which wounds are resolved first, the ones that deal 1 damage or the ones that deal 2 damage?

Page 7 40K Battle Primer "3. Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit "

So the person making the saving throws gets to allocate as he sees fit.

Maybe skipping the fast rolling would be advantageous for the attacker in this situation.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Which wounds are resolved first, the ones that deal 1 damage or the ones that deal 2 damage?

Page 7 40K Battle Primer "3. Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit "

So the person making the saving throws gets to allocate as he sees fit.

Maybe skipping the fast rolling would be advantageous for the attacker in this situation.

yeah... good luck with that, the marine player can just sit back and wait for you to time yourself out by rolling several dozen dice per turn 1 by 1.

 Ordana wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Which wounds are resolved first, the ones that deal 1 damage or the ones that deal 2 damage?

Page 7 40K Battle Primer "3. Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit "

So the person making the saving throws gets to allocate as he sees fit.

Maybe skipping the fast rolling would be advantageous for the attacker in this situation.

yeah... good luck with that, the marine player can just sit back and wait for you to time yourself out by rolling several dozen dice per turn 1 by 1.

"time yourself out"?

What are you talking about. there is nothing about time in the 40k Rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Which wounds are resolved first, the ones that deal 1 damage or the ones that deal 2 damage?

Page 7 40K Battle Primer "3. Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit "

So the person making the saving throws gets to allocate as he sees fit.

Maybe skipping the fast rolling would be advantageous for the attacker in this situation.

yeah... good luck with that, the marine player can just sit back and wait for you to time yourself out by rolling several dozen dice per turn 1 by 1.

"time yourself out"?

What are you talking about. there is nothing about time in the 40k Rules.

You should consider the context of what he is talking about. That's your thing, right?

To answer the OP: The defender allocates the wounds, which means they can try and cause damage to be "wasted".

Yeah, roll one die at a time. Fast-rolling needs to be a properly handled rule, not this weird "GW-recommended-everyone-plays-it-that-way"-houserule.

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Yeah, roll one die at a time. Fast-rolling needs to be a properly handled rule, not this weird "GW-recommended-everyone-plays-it-that-way"-houserule.

It is a properly handled rule. The fact that people forget it is optional or use the rule wrongly is not GWs fault.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Which wounds are resolved first, the ones that deal 1 damage or the ones that deal 2 damage?

Page 7 40K Battle Primer "3. Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit "

So the person making the saving throws gets to allocate as he sees fit.

Maybe skipping the fast rolling would be advantageous for the attacker in this situation.

yeah... good luck with that, the marine player can just sit back and wait for you to time yourself out by rolling several dozen dice per turn 1 by 1.

"time yourself out"?

What are you talking about. there is nothing about time in the 40k Rules.

You should consider the context of what he is talking about. That's your thing, right?

To answer the OP: The defender allocates the wounds, which means they can try and cause damage to be "wasted".

Considering he did not give any context...

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Yeah, roll one die at a time. Fast-rolling needs to be a properly handled rule, not this weird "GW-recommended-everyone-plays-it-that-way"-houserule.

It is a properly handled rule. The fact that people forget it is optional or use the rule wrongly is not GWs fault.

Except that this would still be a problem even without fast rolling, because you'll have weapons with multiple shots.

e.g. a rapid-firing Splinter Cannon will shoot 6 times, and with this rule you could easily end up with a combination of 1-damage and 2-damage wounds from that one gun alone.

 vipoid wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Yeah, roll one die at a time. Fast-rolling needs to be a properly handled rule, not this weird "GW-recommended-everyone-plays-it-that-way"-houserule.

It is a properly handled rule. The fact that people forget it is optional or use the rule wrongly is not GWs fault.

Except that this would still be a problem even without fast rolling, because you'll have weapons with multiple shots.

e.g. a rapid-firing Splinter Cannon will shoot 6 times, and with this rule you could easily end up with a combination of 1-damage and 2-damage wounds from that one gun alone.

How is that a problem? The defender allocates them as they would any other wound. The fact that the defender can finagle it so damage is wasted is not a "problem". It's always worked this way, regardless of whether it's from 1 weapon or from multiple. If I shoot 4 lascannons at 3W models, the first one does 1 damage and the second one does 6, I've lost 4 points of damage.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Yeah, roll one die at a time. Fast-rolling needs to be a properly handled rule, not this weird "GW-recommended-everyone-plays-it-that-way"-houserule.

It is a properly handled rule. The fact that people forget it is optional or use the rule wrongly is not GWs fault.

Except that this would still be a problem even without fast rolling, because you'll have weapons with multiple shots.

e.g. a rapid-firing Splinter Cannon will shoot 6 times, and with this rule you could easily end up with a combination of 1-damage and 2-damage wounds from that one gun alone.

How is that a problem? The defender allocates them as they would any other wound. The fact that the defender can finagle it so damage is wasted is not a "problem". It's always worked this way, regardless of whether it's from 1 weapon or from multiple. If I shoot 4 lascannons at 3W models, the first one does 1 damage and the second one does 6, I've lost 4 points of damage.

"The fact that the defender can finagle it so damage is wasted is not a "problem"."

I guess if you don't mind already niche rules being rendered all but worthless by wound allocation rules, sure.

 vipoid wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Yeah, roll one die at a time. Fast-rolling needs to be a properly handled rule, not this weird "GW-recommended-everyone-plays-it-that-way"-houserule.

It is a properly handled rule. The fact that people forget it is optional or use the rule wrongly is not GWs fault.

Except that this would still be a problem even without fast rolling, because you'll have weapons with multiple shots.

e.g. a rapid-firing Splinter Cannon will shoot 6 times, and with this rule you could easily end up with a combination of 1-damage and 2-damage wounds from that one gun alone.

actually the basic rules assume you roll every attack one at a time and fully resolve it before the next.
So a Splinter Cannon with 6 attacks would go through the 'Resolve Attacks' step 6 times.

No one does this because its stupidly slow and Fast Rolling lets you roll the 6 dice at the same time but the rules do allow you to go 1 by 1.

 vipoid wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Hanskrampf wrote:
Yeah, roll one die at a time. Fast-rolling needs to be a properly handled rule, not this weird "GW-recommended-everyone-plays-it-that-way"-houserule.

It is a properly handled rule. The fact that people forget it is optional or use the rule wrongly is not GWs fault.

Except that this would still be a problem even without fast rolling, because you'll have weapons with multiple shots.

e.g. a rapid-firing Splinter Cannon will shoot 6 times, and with this rule you could easily end up with a combination of 1-damage and 2-damage wounds from that one gun alone.

How is that a problem? The defender allocates them as they would any other wound. The fact that the defender can finagle it so damage is wasted is not a "problem". It's always worked this way, regardless of whether it's from 1 weapon or from multiple. If I shoot 4 lascannons at 3W models, the first one does 1 damage and the second one does 6, I've lost 4 points of damage.

"The fact that the defender can finagle it so damage is wasted is not a "problem"."

I guess if you don't mind already niche rules being rendered all but worthless by wound allocation rules, sure.

"I don't like it" is not the same as "it's a problem."

Ideally GW would write good rules, but we've more chance of the moon turning into a pastry.

So there’s no problem with the rules, it’s not optimal for the attacker that some damage is wasted but it is what it is, whichever method you resolve them. But there’s no actual misunderstanding or problem.

Can the sniping stop, then?

I'm still confused as to how this works without slow rolling.

 DeathReaper wrote:


Page 7 40K Battle Primer "3. Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit "

So the person making the saving throws gets to allocate as he sees fit.

This just means that the player commanding the target unit chooses which models wounds are allocated to, not what order the pool of wounds are allocated in.

So, lets say a unit of banshees with the "6's do 2 damage" ability attacks a unit of Primaris that have been jinxed (no saving throws to keep it simple).

The Banshees use fast rolling and inflict 3 one damage wounds, and 3 two damage wounds. What happens?


The marine player will want to allocate a 1 damage wound followed by a 2 damage wound (killing one Primars) and repeat this 3 times, so that only 3 Primaris die despite 9 total damage was rolled.

The Eldar player will want to allocate the 3 two damage wounds first (killing 3 Primaris), then the 3 one damage wounds (killing one more Primaris, and leaving one wounded).



Edit: I think the "fast dice rolling" section gives this to the defending player actually, although it also says you can only use fast dice for attacks with the same damage characteristic.

Without slow rolling your going to waste wounds, thats the trade off for not rolling them 1 by 1.

There is no official way to resolve this situation because the problem doesn't exist if you follow the rules.

Either mail GW and hope they give a FAQ answer in 6 months or talk to your opponent before the game.

Personally I would probably go with letting the opponent pick which group of wounds to apply first and then do a group at a time. (in which case the marine player picks to do the 1 wounds first, killing 1 and wounding a 2nd. Then the 2 wounds kill the wounded and 2 more. 4 dead and 1 wound wasted)

I personally, since it's supposed to be randomly allocated, have the following policy. (I need it due to Plaguebearers, Locus of Nurgle, and Virulent Blessing.)

Always roll the lowest damage first, then move up. Sometimes it benefits me, sometimes it benefits them, but it's consistent at least.

That's obviously not RAW, but it's something that works.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Which wounds are resolved first, the ones that deal 1 damage or the ones that deal 2 damage?

Page 7 40K Battle Primer "3. Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit "

So the person making the saving throws gets to allocate as he sees fit.

Maybe skipping the fast rolling would be advantageous for the attacker in this situation.

yeah... good luck with that, the marine player can just sit back and wait for you to time yourself out by rolling several dozen dice per turn 1 by 1.

"time yourself out"?

What are you talking about. there is nothing about time in the 40k Rules.

You should consider the context of what he is talking about. That's your thing, right?

To answer the OP: The defender allocates the wounds, which means they can try and cause damage to be "wasted".

Considering he did not give any context...

Most tournaments use chess clocks. 1 at a time isn't really a viable solution in the competitive environment. However, it's a fringe scenario that in this case makes the rule worse. That's just how the game works. I'm not sure it's worth griping about.

The way non douche people handle this is you just roll it all at once and you allow the attacking player to declare what order the damage is to be taken in groups.

Example - you get 12 wounds with 2 of the 12 having rolled a 6.

"Take the 2 damage attacks first" or vice versa.

FFS - asinine rules are to be ignored. I'm not rolling 40 dice individually. You can agree with your opponent how to play it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I personally, since it's supposed to be randomly allocated, have the following policy. (I need it due to Plaguebearers, Locus of Nurgle, and Virulent Blessing.)

Always roll the lowest damage first, then move up. Sometimes it benefits me, sometimes it benefits them, but it's consistent at least.

That's obviously not RAW, but it's something that works.

That works too.

Or you could just follow the rules instead of making up house rules for a non-existent problem, but apparently I am in the minority when it comes to following the rules. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Or you could just follow the rules instead of making up house rules for a non-existent problem, but apparently I am in the minority when it comes to following the rules. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Following rules for the sake of following rules is weaksauce. If we can come to agreement to save us a bunch of time without altering the outcome of the game in any significant way - there is no reason no to. Rolling 40 dice 1 at a time is obnoxious. Ofc in a tournament setting if someone is adamant about playing it that way I will not argue. I would suggest ether method that has been suggested above too...even if it worked out against me. Causye screw rolling 40 dice 1 at a time every time you shoot a venom and a kabalite warrior unit. I sometimes bring 9 of those in a DE list.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
I'm still confused as to how this works without slow rolling.

 DeathReaper wrote:


Page 7 40K Battle Primer "3. Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit "

So the person making the saving throws gets to allocate as he sees fit.

This just means that the player commanding the target unit chooses which models wounds are allocated to, not what order the pool of wounds are allocated in.

False.
Because of this:
" it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together...[they give some conditions] If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate."-P.5 40k Battle Primer Fast Dice Rolling sidebar.

In the OP's scenario he was talking about fast rolling dice, so we can see that the defender can allocate the wounds one at a time. Therefore what I said was true.

So, lets say a unit of banshees with the "6's do 2 damage" ability attacks a unit of Primaris that have been jinxed (no saving throws to keep it simple).

The Banshees use fast rolling and inflict 3 one damage wounds, and 3 two damage wounds. What happens?

the defender allocates the wounds one at a time, like it says in the rules.

The marine player will want to allocate a 1 damage wound followed by a 2 damage wound (killing one Primars) and repeat this 3 times, so that only 3 Primaris die despite 9 total damage was rolled.

The Eldar player will want to allocate the 3 two damage wounds first (killing 3 Primaris), then the 3 one damage wounds (killing one more Primaris, and leaving one wounded).

and the unit that was shot at gets to allocate the wounds one at a time, like it says in the rules.

Edit: I think the "fast dice rolling" section gives this to the defending player actually, although it also says you can only use fast dice for attacks with the same damage characteristic.

Yes, the "fast dice rolling" section gives this to the defending player, and at the time the attacks were rolled they all had the same damage characteristic.

 Ordana wrote:
There is no official way to resolve this situation because the problem doesn't exist if you follow the rules.

False, read the fast rolling rules I posted above, there is clearly an official was to handle this exact scenario.

 JNAProductions wrote:
... since it's supposed to be randomly allocated...

Where does it say that it is "supposed to be randomly allocated"?

I love how you yadayada over the bit where it says the attacks must all have the same characteristics to fast roll when the whole discussion is about the characteristics not being the same.

 Ordana wrote:
I love how you yadayada over the bit where it says the attacks must all have the same characteristics to fast roll when the whole discussion is about the characteristics not being the same.

The characteristics were the same before the wound roll. It's the result of rolling 6's on the to wound roll that makes the resulting wounds different. Wound allocation is done one wound at a time.
The whole discussion is about who determines which wounds go first in the allocation, not whether you can fast roll to hit or to wound..

 doctortom wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
I love how you yadayada over the bit where it says the attacks must all have the same characteristics to fast roll when the whole discussion is about the characteristics not being the same.

The characteristics were the same before the wound roll. It's the result of rolling 6's on the to wound roll that makes the resulting wounds different. Wound allocation is done one wound at a time.
The whole discussion is about who determines which wounds go first in the allocation, not whether you can fast roll to hit or to wound..

And the fact that to wound rolls lead to different resulting damage means that you shouldn't be fast rolling. Because the characteristics are no longer the same.

The rulebook doesn't answer which wounds go first in allocation because this situation does't exist while following the rules.

Sorry Ordana, but you are just flat wrong about that. The damage on the weapon is 1. There are special rules that change that damage on particular roles, but the existence of such rules is not a consideration when using the Fast Rolling rules.

Fast Dice Rolling wrote:The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time. However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls. Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate. Remember, if the target unit contains a model that has already lost any wounds, they must allocate further wounds to this model until either it is slain, or all the wounds have been saved or resolved.

This problem is not new. It has existed since 8th Edition Day 1 when they gave many weapons different AP values on a 6+ to wound. In all this time, no one has ever said you can't Fast Roll Eldar Shuriken weapons together because the wounds may have different AP value on them.

No one is saying you can't fast roll, just that there is no rule for dealing with the result and that you and your opponent have to figure out how to do it.

 alextroy wrote:
In all this time, no one has ever said you can't Fast Roll Eldar Shuriken weapons together because the wounds may have different AP value on them.

That's not the same, though, because it doesn't matter what order you resolve attacks with varying AP in. It does matter what order you resolve attacks with varying damage in, as has already been demonstrated in this thread.

I've had the same question, specifically regarding Skitarii Vanguard (same rule, wound roll of 6 does D2), for about a year now. Haven't found an answer. The fastest mechanically-equivalent solution I've thought of has been to use different colored tokens in a grab bag, and have one player draw them randomly to determine the order in which to resolve attacks. But if you let either player choose to resolve an entire group at once, it is not going to be mechanically equivalent.

 Ordana wrote:
No one is saying you can't fast roll, just that there is no rule for dealing with the result and that you and your opponent have to figure out how to do it.

Again, this is false. As per the rules I posted earlier there is a rule on how to deal with this.

"Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate."-P.5 40k Battle Primer Fast Dice Rolling sidebar.

Therefore your opponent can allocate the wounds one at a time. The order is up to your opponent as per RAW.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
No one is saying you can't fast roll, just that there is no rule for dealing with the result and that you and your opponent have to figure out how to do it.

Again, this is false. As per the rules I posted earlier there is a rule on how to deal with this.

"Your opponent can then allocate the wounds one at a time, making the saving throws and suffering damage each time as appropriate."-P.5 40k Battle Primer Fast Dice Rolling sidebar.

Therefore your opponent can allocate the wounds one at a time. The order is up to your opponent as per RAW.

That's not what that section refers to. It refers to WHO is getting wounded, not what order the wounds go in.