Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

As we all know, marines currently are dominating the meta, and one of the biggest culprits is grey knights. I would like to suggest a series of reasonable fixes that should bring their power level down to acceptable levels. It is astonishing that after years of nerfs and constant knee caps, the army still is able to operate at all, but I am going to suggest some band-aids that should bring them in line with the meta.

For those of you who are not aware, purifiers are absolute rules abominations. 21 points for a free force weapon, 4 heavy weapons slots, and a psyker is insane. They also get an absolutely broken 1d6 smite regardless of the roll. This unit is an absolute abomination. I'd like to suggest we lower the smite to 1d3 wounds only, lower their number of attacks by 1, and raise their price slightly. Why anyone would ever run strike teams or interceptors, which are worse than purifiers in every way, is beyond me.

Next, we have venerable dreadnaughts. Venerable dreads in grey knights get psychic powers for free, and are even better at casting them. It's a free librarian dread essentially. This is disgusting. Compared to say, iron hands or raven guard, who get nothing of any value with dreads, grey knights get the ability to have their dread shoot through walls. I'd suggest raising the price substantially, maybe 50 points for grey knights. It's a dreadnaught that can redeploy, smite, and shoot through walls, It is insane.

Land raiders with grey knights are also bonkers. The ability to essentially deep strike a land raider is obtuse. Compare it to a drop pod which is absolute trash. You get more guns, tankier stats, and can carry more terminators. It's broken. i'd suggest raising the price heavily and lowering it's BS.

Next is grey knight paladins. While normal grey knight terminators are insane, with free psychic powers and smite, paladins are basically cheaper custodes with 0 downsides compared to custodians. Why anyone would play custodes where these bad boys exist is beyond me. Sure they only have marginally less survivability and dmg in melee, they come with storm bolters, which due to the new bolter doctorine are insane. The extra attack and melee really pushed these guys. They also can shoot through walls, wound with +1, and even redeploy on the board, all for free. I'd say they reasonably should be brought down to size. I'd lower their wounds and attacks by 1.

Lastly, I feel to compensate for this, the weakest unit in the codex, the grandmaster dreadknight should be fixed. Nobody ever brings these for a reason. Low toughness, a meager invuln save, and lacking dmg output hampers it greatly. I feel like a 50 points decrease miiiight be just able to make it a viable pick, but it also might be worth allowing it to also reroll ones to wound with it's aura as well.

With these changes, I suspect we might see less marines at competitive play. The fact 50% of all grey knight lists have half their space marine infantry with a 3+ invuln might also need to be addressed, but as of right now I think these measures would be good to curbing at least some of the bigger problems.

.......... this is satire right?

 Jaxler wrote:
Lastly, I feel to compensate for this, the weakest unit in the codex, the grandmaster dreadknight should be fixed. Nobody ever brings these for a reason. Low toughness, a meager invuln save, and lacking dmg output hampers it greatly. I feel like a 50 points decrease miiiight be just able to make it a viable pick, but it also might be worth allowing it to also reroll ones to wound with it's aura as well.

Now, be careful here.

Aside from this change, I agree completely, but right after fixing Grey Knights you're proposing a change which would bring their power level right back up to OP. 50 points less, sure, I think we can all agree on that. But don't allow the Grandmaster Dreadknight's aura to allow for rerolling wound rolls of 1 - that would affect other units, which is (IMHO) unacceptable. Just make it so that the GMDK can reroll failed wound rolls.

LOL

I must admit when i read the first sentence I checked the poster to see if it was a new troll account.

I agree with all points above. While we're at it, nerf Necrons too - the ability to just bring back models for zero matched play points is just beyond broken

 MinMax wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
Lastly, I feel to compensate for this, the weakest unit in the codex, the grandmaster dreadknight should be fixed. Nobody ever brings these for a reason. Low toughness, a meager invuln save, and lacking dmg output hampers it greatly. I feel like a 50 points decrease miiiight be just able to make it a viable pick, but it also might be worth allowing it to also reroll ones to wound with it's aura as well.

Now, be careful here.

Aside from this change, I agree completely, but right after fixing Grey Knights you're proposing a change which would bring their power level right back up to OP. 50 points less, sure, I think we can all agree on that. But don't allow the Grandmaster Dreadknight's aura to allow for rerolling wound rolls of 1 - that would affect other units, which is (IMHO) unacceptable. Just make it so that the GMDK can reroll failed wound rolls.

Good point. How about he rolls all to hit and wound with 0 aura? Seems like a solid fix.

I think that GK are now simply viewed by GW as a 'bolt on' to other Imperium armies. They are not viable as a stand-alone force and I don't think they are meant to be. They are expected to act as an elite detachment within a wider Imperial force such as IG or AM, or provide some specialist add-ons to standard marine forces. I think the same is true of the Harlequins who work best as a bolt-on to Craftworld or Drukhari forces. Just my view - they want the game played by composite forces of different units and dexes.

If GW is going to do something like doctrins for marines, which imperial army is going to lose their version of them to take up Grey Knights. Specially when they don't really have a speciality. Melee brawlers are done better with something like a BA captins or custodes. And Stormbolters in the DW version are superior for the same point cost.

I could imagine them being a tax to punish imperial players in narrative games. If opponent has more then 25% points in stuff that is demonic in nature, the imperial player has to take a GK patrol detachment worth at least 25% points of the imperial army.

I didn't know what to expect from this thread, but I do know that I am not disappointed.

I'm so confused. I thought GK were considered one of the lowest tier factions in all of 8th ed. So why is the OP trying to nerf them more?
Seriously, when I clicked on this thread I was expecting to see BUFFs because GKs are virtually unplayable atm compared to other factions

-

 Galef wrote:
I'm so confused. I thought GK were considered one of the lowest tier factions in all of 8th ed. So why is the OP trying to nerf them more.

Seriously, when I clicked on this thread I was expecting to see BUFFs because GKs are virtually unplayable atm compared to other factions

-

I think you need to know a bit about the army and how it compares with similar units in other armies to understand the jokes being made here.

I like the joke with the Purifiers personally because nerfing them to A1 is actually what was done this last edition!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I like the joke with the Purifiers personally because nerfing them to A1 is actually what was done this last edition!

It still boggles my mind that they got nerfed like that. GK are supposed to be super elite warriors, but they have the same Attack stat as Grots.

 Orodhen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I like the joke with the Purifiers personally because nerfing them to A1 is actually what was done this last edition!

It still boggles my mind that they got nerfed like that. GK are supposed to be super elite warriors, but they have the same Attack stat as Grots.

With new space marines, we cannot have old ones to close. Ruins the immersive buff the imperium got for them. ;p

 Orodhen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I like the joke with the Purifiers personally because nerfing them to A1 is actually what was done this last edition!

It still boggles my mind that they got nerfed like that. GK are supposed to be super elite warriors, but they have the same Attack stat as Grots.

This is “The edition we asked for.”

One thing that bothers me a lot is that GK champions don't cost more pts, you're not getting more psychic powers from taking more models and he has an extra attack. They really should cost at least 5 more pts, probably 10 or maybe even 30 more pts.

Giving GK the normal smite. Maybe.

 vict0988 wrote:
One thing that bothers me a lot is that GK champions don't cost more pts, you're not getting more psychic powers from taking more models and he has an extra attack. They really should cost at least 5 more pts, probably 10 or maybe even 30 more pts.

Absolutely not. Unit champions almost never cost points and often bring a lot to their unit. There is no reason to punish GKs because they get something just about every other factions also gets for free.

-

 Galef wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
One thing that bothers me a lot is that GK champions don't cost more pts, you're not getting more psychic powers from taking more models and he has an extra attack. They really should cost at least 5 more pts, probably 10 or maybe even 30 more pts.

Absolutely not. Unit champions almost never cost points and often bring a lot to their unit. There is no reason to punish GKs because they get something just about every other factions also gets for free.

-

Grey Knights get psychic powers for free, how is that fair? Necrons don't get champions for free, they don't even get psychic powers.

 vict0988 wrote:

Spoiler:

Did you read OP?

Yes and I got the joke. I just don't think it's really funny at all.

-

 Galef wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Spoiler:

Did you read OP?

Yes and I got the joke. I just don't think it's really funny at all.

-

I thought it was funny because it shows how little thought was put into writing the codex.

I actually do believe the incentive to run min-squads is too large, the basic guys could be 3 pts cheaper and the champion could be 2 pts more expensive. Min squads get 10 pts cheaper, max squads 25 pts cheaper. Same is true for Craftworld Exarchs, I think it's one of the later things GW needs to worry about and psychic powers and Stratagems help promote big squads, maybe big Strike Squads are more pts efficient than small squads already?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I thought it was funny because it shows how little thought was put into writing the codex.

I mean, yeah, the CODEX is a joke. I just don't really find humor in suggesting further nerfs by pretending the codex is OP.

-

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I thought it was funny because it shows how little thought was put into writing the codex.

I mean, yeah, the CODEX is a joke. I just don't really find humor in suggesting further nerfs by pretending the codex is OP.

-

I do, heck, i bully my own army