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2019/10/26 23:51:55
Subject: Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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So I kind of just noticed.
The newish wording to the fly keyword is,
If the datasheet for a model says it can Fly, then during
the Movement phase it can move across models as if they
were not there, and when moving across terrain features,
vertical distance is not counted against the total it can
move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in
the Movement phase). If the datasheet for a model says
it can Fly, then during the Charge phase it can move
across models (other than Buildings) as if they were
not there.’
It no longer says a flying unit ignores terrain... so does this mean when my super sonic flying unit goes over tank trap obstacles it needs to half the advance roll ? or what about some unit with a jump pack, do they get slowed by razor wire ?
I like to think that a part of ignoring vertical movement is just saying ,, ok, the model moves up vertically 30" skips over the obstacle and then moves on. . . do people think that is valid logic ? or was the intent of the rules change meant to cause this interaction with the terrain rules?
I don't really have any other argument for why a flying unit should skip over terrain effects now except for the above argument.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/27 00:00:47
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/10/27 06:04:12
Subject: Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Fresh-Faced New User
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The rule change was to stop people deploying 9 inchs vertically from enemy models and then making a 1 inch charge. It remains a battle between GW and what rules lawyers can abuse to gain advantage. It doesn't help that GW gave almost no examples in the rule book.
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2019/10/27 06:20:51
Subject: Re:Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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The movement rules say that a model has to move up terrain vertically, then move across it horizontally, move down vertically. And move its base size in inches, to get across it. Lets say our pilot Joe, with his stormtalon gunship, with a 4.7" base at its longest diameter, wants to move across a 3x3" container, which he touches. He ignores vertical distances, so its only 7.7" to get over it. If Joe would hover his gunship he would need to move 13.7" (two times 3" vertical movement) to get over it.
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2019/10/27 07:38:03
Subject: Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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That’s spot on.
As p5freak says, you normally count movement for up, across and down terrain. FLY ignores the up and down parts, so you just measure across. Functionally, in the Movement Phase there’s no change, though it clarifies how it works for those who used to claim you had to count vertical despite what the rules said. The big change is it doesn’t work in the Charge Phase or Fight Phase.
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 Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
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2019/10/27 19:22:50
Subject: Re:Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I think you guys missed what I was talking about.
I am not talking about moving over regular ruins, craters or forests. I am talking about terrain with the "Obstacle" rules.
i.e.
Obstacles
The advance of many armies has been thwarted by obstacles.
There are two kinds of obstacles: tank traps, which are obstacles to VEHICLES and MONSTERS, and tanglewire, which is an obstacle to everything else. Units are slowed when they attempt to move over obstacles. If, when a unit Advances or charges, one or more of its models have to move over an obstacle, you must halve the unit’s Advance or charge distance, as appropriate (rounding up). TITANIC models are not slowed by obstacles.
Fly used to say it ignored terrain,
now it says
when moving across terrain features,
vertical distance is not counted against the total it can
move (i.e. moving vertically is free for this model in
the Movement phase)
This means that when a infantry unit advances over tanglewire, even when it has fly, it no longer ignores the effect which gives half distance to the roll.
The same would be true for a vehicle flyer going over tank traps.
In fact, based on the current wording, a flying unit would have to calculate vertical distance when moving over hills.
As hills are not considered a terrain feature
[quoteHills
]Hills and elevated positions are often key tactical locations.
Hills, whether free-standing or modelled into the battlefield itself, are raised areas that offer troops on top of them commanding views and fields of fire. Hills are always considered to be part of the battlefield rather than a terrain feature, and so models on top of them do not receive the benefits of cover. Some particularly large hills may block a model’s visibility to a target unit, however, so get a model’s-eye-view to see if this is ever the case.
I don't think this is the intention of the rules change, as it was obviously to stop people from getting a < 9" charge,,, but that seems to be the RAW now. HIWP is to continue to ignore verticle distance for hills and ignore the effects of Obstacle... but I can't really think of a logical reason to play like that when following RAW.
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/10/27 19:27:55
Subject: Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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I’d play it as ignoring such terrain as it’s flying over it. You’re free to RAW-play it and end up with a dumb result of course, but that’s HIPWI.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
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2019/10/27 19:31:19
Subject: Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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 JohnnyHell wrote:I’d play it as ignoring such terrain as it’s flying over it. You’re free to RAW-play it and end up with a dumb result of course, but that’s HIPWI.
Agreed on that,
I was just wondering, really, if I was missing something in the RAW that counteracts this seemingly unintended interaction, maybe some hidden FAQ that says "flying units ignore terrain effects unless otherwise stated" or something
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/27 19:33:44
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/10/27 19:38:57
Subject: Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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 Type40 wrote: JohnnyHell wrote:I’d play it as ignoring such terrain as it’s flying over it. You’re free to RAW-play it and end up with a dumb result of course, but that’s HIPWI.
Agreed on that,
I was just wondering, really, if I was missing something in the RAW that counteracts this seemingly unintended interaction, maybe some hidden FAQ that says "flying units ignore terrain effects unless otherwise stated" or something
They jerked their knee to fix one issue and unwittingly created another... although as usual not actually an issue unless following a “ RAW even if daft” crusade.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
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2019/10/27 19:48:55
Subject: Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I guess it is what it is.
Oh well, I know how I'll approach it in my games. Automatically Appended Next Post: Thanks for the responses 
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/27 19:49:59
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/10/27 20:13:28
Subject: Re:Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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I suggest checking the rules before posting 
BATTLEFIELD TERRAIN
In this section you will find expanded terrain rules, including rules for recently released terrain features. If rules for a terrain feature that has rules in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook appear here, they update and replace those in the rulebook.
Everything in CA 2018 from pg. 62-65 is terrain, this includes obstacles on pg. 64. There is no problem with the new FLY rule, you can still move over obstacles and ignore vertical movement.
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2019/10/27 20:20:46
Subject: Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ah ! didnt notice terrain update in CA 18 that ! precisely why I posted here asking
Thanks @p5freak !
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As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/10/27 20:31:50
Subject: Re:Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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OBSTACLES
The advance of many armies has been thwarted by obstacles.
There are two kinds of obstacles: tank traps, which are obstacles to VEHICLES and MONSTERS, and tanglewire, which is an obstacle to everything else. Units are slowed when they attempt to move over obstacles. If, when a unit Advances or charges, one or more of its models move over an obstacle, you must halve the unit’s Advance or charge distance, as appropriate (rounding up). TITANIC models are not slowed by obstacles.
Well, you still have to half the advance distance, even if you have FLY. Does this mean that if you roll a 2 you can only advance an additional 1" ? Or does it mean the entire movement+advance is halved ?
In the charge phase your charge distance is also halved, even with FLY. Somehow JP, or whatever propulsion engine you have, dont work in the charge phase
Tank traps are an obstacle for vehicles, but not for bikers. Your bikers have FLY ? Doesnt matter, its still an obstacle for you
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/10/27 20:39:26
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2019/10/27 20:38:30
Subject: Re:Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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@p5freak ,
Just went over the CA 18 terrain rules.
The rules from CA 18 for obstacles are exactly the same as the BRB in terms of this issue... so it actually doesn't fix the problem.
Once again, this has nothing to do with limiting the vertical movement. This has do with "terrain effects."
i.e. RAW a flying unit must half there advance roll when advancing over an appropriate OBSTACLE.
Again, I do not intend to play this way, but CA 18 does not fix this.
Anyways, this is what it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:OBSTACLES
The advance of many armies has been thwarted by obstacles.
There are two kinds of obstacles: tank traps, which are obstacles to VEHICLES and MONSTERS, and tanglewire, which is an obstacle to everything else. Units are slowed when they attempt to move over obstacles. If, when a unit Advances or charges, one or more of its models move over an obstacle, you must halve the unit’s Advance or charge distance, as appropriate (rounding up). TITANIC models are not slowed by obstacles.
Well, you still have to half the advance distance, even if you have FLY. Does this mean that if you roll a 2 you can only advance an additional 1" ? Or does it mean the entire movement+advance is halved ?
In the charge phase your charge distance is also halved, even with FLY. Somehow JP, or whatever propulsion engine you have, dont work in the charge phase
Tank traps are an obstacle for vehicles, but not for bikers
It says to half the advance distance. I think that means the roll at least, as in the BRB it says to add the advance roll to your movement for the phase. Then after that you use your movement to,,, move XD. So if your roll a 2 you only get 1" extra.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/10/27 20:42:20
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/10/27 20:46:23
Subject: Re:Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Yes, i should follow my own advice 
So, bikers can move normally over tank traps, which is 14". But they have to halve their distance when they advance (bikers dont roll, they auto advance 6"), do they move 10" or 17" ?
And when they charge over tank traps they can only move max. 6", even if they have FLY
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/27 20:50:13
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2019/10/27 20:56:57
Subject: Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I believe the auto advance usually says it "counts as a 6" so its +3 instead of +6.
I have been playing as though terrain effects happen to flying units in the charge phase. But I have been ignoring it for movement phase... though the RAW, as I realized just recently, seems to say flyers do not ignore terrain effects in the movement phase anymore.
But yes, i think the idea is that a bike can weave in and out of tank traps, but razorwire is still a problem. vehicles just trample over the razorwire. I think that is somewhat logical.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/27 20:57:52
As an aside, as "infinite" rolls is actually impossible even if the FAQ "allows" it, then it will always be a non-zero chance to pass them all. Eventually the two players will die. If they pass the game on to their decendents, they too will eventually die. And, at the end of it all, the universe will experience heat death and it, too, will die. In the instance of "infinite" hits, we're talking more of functional infinity, rather than literal.
RAW you can't pass the game onto descendants, permissive ruleset. Unless we get an FAQ from GW.
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2019/11/03 19:03:52
Subject: Re:Fly keyword and obstacles.
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Stalwart Space Marine
Wasteland(free from wreck but still stuck on the death world)
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Somewhere should be explanation for this. If not talk to opponent and figure it out to make your game better for both.
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