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So, I'm going to do my best to not whine about this, and I wish I more specific example for what happened. But I played a game v. raven guard with my thousand sons on saturday and it had me scratching my head a bit. I don't follow the competitive meta so I only vaguely hear about the newest shiny tactics.

Basically, his entire army infiltrated. Scouts, eliminators, those new war suits and I think incursors. Then he had a warlord trait which let him infiltrate his warlord and a full group of aggressors. He showed me the stratagems and rules and warlord traits, and after glancing at them I realized that he had to stay 9" away from my deployment zone, whereas he was originally going to deploy on the border.

So, deployment is him all over no-mans land with like 40 snipers/eliminators, and his entire rest of his army was 9" away from my deployment zone. He had literally no units in his own deployment zone.

Then, he used a pre-game stratagem (multiple times, which is legal) which let him move all his infantry units pre-game, which also allows advance. So, before turn 1 even begins, his entire army in inside my deployment zone. I deployed second, so I even placed my army about midpoint in my deployment zone thinking that was a fairly safe choice, though I feel that if I deployed on my table edge it wouldn't have changed anything.

Then, he gets to move again, after deploying so close and moving even closer, and shoots and assaults normally.

So, turn 1, his entire army got move into my deployment zone, shoot at point-blank range, and assault, on a hammer and anvil deployment map no less.

I was tabled by turn 2.

Does this sound legal? Again, I glanced at the warlord traits and stratagems as he used them and it seemed above-board. And he did admit post-game that is working on a competitive list, and wasn't a jerk or anything about it.

I'd like to be more surprised about this all being legal, but honestly most of the new primaris stuff seems broken so at this point it's normal to me.

So, is this more or less new raven guard? Or does that sound like something was played wrong?

Honorable mention: A no-overwatch allowed psychic power, and stratagems which allow outflanking infantry and another that allowed falling back with absolutely zero penalties.

Yes it’s legal. It also relies entirely on getting first turn, otherwise it gives the opponent a shooting gallery.

Agreed, it's perfectly legal but highly dependent on going first.

You'll just need to screen more effectively.

All the more reason to play Apoc.

Not everyone has easy access to guard screen battalions. I mean, I don't really have good screening options as thousand sons. Did the best I could with spawn. And even if I brought a ton of cultists or something, the aggressors would just sweep them aside.

Anyways, sounds like it's kosher. I see how it's potentially risky, and it could have been different if I had stolen initiative.

Yeahit's a pretty first turn heavy build which is why I don't ever see it winning events because sometimes you just WONT get first turn no matter how hard you try or build for it. Personally I also don't like these builds because they are very often smash games of either they go first and win or you go first and win and that's pretty much it. Largely unsatisfying. It reminds me of really heavy alpha strike lists of 7th like Skyhammer lists and how we'd joke about rolling first turn, saying GG, shake hands then play another game.

Thank for this post, i will tried to do that one day but it will not work if he goes again harlequins or heavy fly army.

But I got a question: does the infiltrators 12’’ inch bubble inside the opponent’s deploying zone change where he should deployed is unites? In a way, if yes, your opponent cannot deployed is unit if he deploy all is army second

If you knew in advance what he was going to do then you would have sacrificed one or two units who would sit forward and prevent him from moving into your deployment zone. The mistake is deploying too far back with everything which means he just gets free moves forward.

One model covers an 18" line of space that he cannot move into.

This shouldn't be legal. It sounds stupid as feth and harks back to the exact things that were hated of older editions.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
This shouldn't be legal. It sounds stupid as feth and harks back to the exact things that were hated of older editions.

It's the same as zerker rush for AL was.
And its funny how Marines can do what others were not allowed to due to beeing "unfun".

However if you go first, well then goodnight irene, that army isn't durable and the higher AP of TS would've really done a number on them.

As for OP, you have technically access to 4 pts screens. Technically.

It's illegal, the move before the game Stratagem cannot be used to get within 9" of enemy units. The Stratagem also costs 1 CP each time it is used, so that's what 6-8 CP?

INFILTRATORS

Raven Guard Stratagem

Use this Stratagem at the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins. Select one RAVEN GUARD INFANTRY unit from your army that is on the battlefield. That unit can move as if it were your Movement phase. The unit must end that move more than 9" away from any enemy models. If both players have units that can do this, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first. Each unit can only be selected for this Stratagem once per battle.

Harlequins have a power that prevents overwatch, no problems there, they can also deep strike like RG, those two options aren't really huge sinners. The RG WL trait that lets them re-deploy is BS though.

Edit: Originally wrote enemy deployment zone, but as the Stratagem below says it's units. You just have to sacrifice a unit or two to keep your opponent 9" away from your deployment zone. Your opponent spent a lot of CP to do it, those CP could've been spent on so many other things and you could've shielded yourself from it. Really your problem was not knowing everything in the supplement before playing against it. I got hit by the False Fleight Stratagem without knowing it existed, I tried tying up a unit of Devastator Centurions to no avail, fell back, shot and charged back in.

 vict0988 wrote:
It's illegal, the move before the game Stratagem cannot be used to get within 9" of the enemy deployment zone. The Stratagem also costs 1 CP each time it is used, so that's what 6-8 CP?

INFILTRATORS

Raven Guard Stratagem

Use this Stratagem at the start of the first battle round, before the first turn begins. Select one RAVEN GUARD INFANTRY unit from your army that is on the battlefield. That unit can move as if it were your Movement phase. The unit must end that move more than 9" away from any enemy models. If both players have units that can do this, the player who is taking the first turn moves their units first. Each unit can only be selected for this Stratagem once per battle.

Harlequins have a power that prevents overwatch, no problems there, they can also deep strike like RG, those two options aren't really huge sinners. The RG WL trait that lets them re-deploy is BS though.

reading the stratagem, he can move inside your deployment zone, but need to stay 9" away from your dudes

I'm going to have to say that 80 points of cultist to sit on the edge of your deployment zone and die would have done you a lot of good.

The Raven Guard player's strategy also isn't entirely contingent on getting first turn. True, he is going to have a difficult time moving Aggressors into position otherwise, but if he goes second, there's nothing making him use Master of Ambush to move the Aggressors forward or Infiltrators to move his units closer. He could just as easily wind up with 2nd turn and deploy his units in LOS-blocking cover and place his Aggressors in Deep Strike Reserve, then play the normal marines game. He could then drop in Aggressors T2 and Shadowstep the supporting character.

The Alpha Strike is strong, but it won't nullify the army completely if he goes second. But now we're talking tactics and not rules.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Not everyone has easy access to guard screen battalions. I mean, I don't really have good screening options as thousand sons. Did the best I could with spawn. And even if I brought a ton of cultists or something, the aggressors would just sweep them aside.

Anyways, sounds like it's kosher. I see how it's potentially risky, and it could have been different if I had stolen initiative.

the agressors could have swept them aside sure, but cultists job is to die. if they screen your troops from that infiltration and then die, well.. job's done.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Not everyone has easy access to guard screen battalions. I mean, I don't really have good screening options as thousand sons. Did the best I could with spawn.

tzaangors
multiple units of brimstone horrors, you could have 3 units of 10 for 90pts
you have access to cultists

just highlights a weakness in ye list thats quite cheap to fix. If you'd of had say the horrors in H&A you could of made a line of them across the entire board at the line of your deployment zone and still had some to spare.

Give him another game and rock some of those, you know what to expect now. Stuff always seems broken when you dont know what to expect.

 alextroy wrote:
I'm going to have to say that 80 points of cultist to sit on the edge of your deployment zone and die would have done you a lot of good.

80 pts?
if you meant 20 then that would be 100 pts.

or do you specificially want 16 cultists?

I think he more likely assumed they were 4ppm like the more-useful-but-inexplicably-cheaper regular Guardsman. I’m going with oversight.

Yeah. I forgot that got the point upgrade while the guard did not. Still a good investment for a roadblock.

Sounds like this was just a gotcha moment for the OP. This happens every time a new dex comes out. OP said they don’t keep up with the meta. You don’t have to. Just watch a dex review video when they drop on YouTube. Knowledge is power. I study all my opponents before a game and theory hammer my lists. Why? Because I have two kids and 3 jobs so when I finally get time to play 40k I want to have the best game I can win or lose. Losing to gotcha moments sucks. I bet if you played again it would be a comepletely different game.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I think he more likely assumed they were 4ppm like the more-useful-but-inexplicably-cheaper regular Guardsman. I’m going with oversight.

I mean he could field the 4ppm but worse then conscript militia instead, that way you would have 20 25mm slotta bases.
Off course that would also mean stradling for even worse options just for screening.