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One of the main problems that Ork characters have is how flimsy they are. A Warboss only saves at 4+, no inv, no FnP, no nothing. So a lumbering monster (in the fluff) is just a plain Joe in any battlefield.

Given that marines get iron halo (4++), How would you feel to give ork characters and nobs a rule "ard as nails" that would give them a FnP save?

So that nobs and characters have a 6+++ and the warboss 5+++. Representing how they can bear wounds due to their superior physical condition.

I would also change Doc's to give a simple +1 to the FnP roll (6+++ as now for boys).
That would generate a smooth progression that would represent how tough they are as they get bigger and beefier.
Yes, that would mean a Warboss close to a doc would have a 4+++. And that is exactly my point. Both fluffy and game oriented.

Alas, I know that relics exist, but I feel any warboss should be this tought rather than resorting to special gits.

I would agree to pay a little extra, let's say 80pts base? +10pts to current version?

I'm absolutely fine with that,

Hive Tyrants get a 4++

DE Archeons have a 2++ until it fails, but Christ there have been entire games Ive had to kill him through his 2++!

Even company commanders get a easy 5++ so a Warboss with a 5++ and 4++ with a snipeable support piece is totally fine! Hell keep the warboss his current price and bump the doc slightly.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
One of the main problems that Ork characters have is how flimsy they are. A Warboss only saves at 4+, no inv, no FnP, no nothing. So a lumbering monster (in the fluff) is just a plain Joe in any battlefield.

Given that marines get iron halo (4++), How would you feel to give ork characters and nobs a rule "ard as nails" that would give them a FnP save?

So that nobs and characters have a 6+++ and the warboss 5+++. Representing how they can bear wounds due to their superior physical condition.

I would also change Doc's to give a simple +1 to the FnP roll (6+++ as now for boys).
That would generate a smooth progression that would represent how tough they are as they get bigger and beefier.
Yes, that would mean a Warboss close to a doc would have a 4+++. And that is exactly my point. Both fluffy and game oriented.

Alas, I know that relics exist, but I feel any warboss should be this tought rather than resorting to special gits.

I would agree to pay a little extra, let's say 80pts base? +10pts to current version?

I think cybork-body should be an option but I don't like the idea of it stacking with Painboys or it being a part of the datasheet. It could be a Legends datasheet like the Bike Warboss, that also prevents the basic Warboss from having negative Snakebite synergy, I'd certainly let you get a 6+++ for 10 pts including the stacking with Painboy and I'd probably let you get away with 7 pts if you took out that part or 5 pts if you raised the price on power klaws for Warbosses or nerfed Da Killa Klaw Relic, a 5++ is quite a bit stronger, that's basically a free relic for every Warboss, perhabs that's only worth 10 pts for Orks, but I don't really want to see Warbosses getting spammed.

I don't agree that Warbosses are that squishy, T5 6W 4+ Sv is far better than the T3 5W that an Astra Militarum character gets. If you had a Strat for getting a bonus WL trait and suddenly you can make a very tough Warboss with ’ARD AS NAILS (+1 T) and DA BEST ARMOUR TEEF CAN BUY (4+ invuln) WL traits and the SUPA-CYBORK BODY (5+++) Relic. But even if you did have a Stratagem for a bonus WL trait (like SM), you still wouldn't pick these because Da Killa Klaw is too good and these options are pretty bad. If ’ARD AS NAILS was +2 T and SUPA-CYBORK BODY halved damage (to a minimum of 1) as well as gave a 5+++ like the Ynnari Relic then you'd have your super-tough Warboss that would be an option comparable to the classic melee Killa Klaw suicide missile build.

T5 6W 4+ save is not very durable.

It takes...

2 unsaved wounds
2 successful wound rolls
3 hits
6 swings from a Thunderhammer (on a WS 3+ model with no rerolls) to kill a Warboss.

Hell, a SINGLE BERSERKER can kill a Warboss! Give the Champ a Powerfist, he's got 4 attacks round one, for 2 hits, 5/3 wounds, and 10/3 damage. He then swings again, doing the remaining damage.

Warbosses are a goodish unit, but durable they are not.

 JNAProductions wrote:
T5 6W 4+ save is not very durable.

It takes...

2 unsaved wounds
2 successful wound rolls
3 hits
6 swings from a Thunderhammer (on a WS 3+ model with no rerolls) to kill a Warboss.

Hell, a SINGLE BERSERKER can kill a Warboss! Give the Champ a Powerfist, he's got 4 attacks round one, for 2 hits, 5/3 wounds, and 10/3 damage. He then swings again, doing the remaining damage.

Warbosses are a goodish unit, but durable they are not.

Would you call Knights durable? A Warboss can kill a Knight in a turn. Everything is relative and I don't think Warbosses are too vulnerable, just like I don't think Knights are too vulnerable. Some things are just really damn killy this edition. If anything scale the killiness back otherwise every unit will need a 5+++.

 vict0988 wrote:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
One of the main problems that Ork characters have is how flimsy they are. A Warboss only saves at 4+, no inv, no FnP, no nothing. So a lumbering monster (in the fluff) is just a plain Joe in any battlefield.

Given that marines get iron halo (4++), How would you feel to give ork characters and nobs a rule "ard as nails" that would give them a FnP save?

So that nobs and characters have a 6+++ and the warboss 5+++. Representing how they can bear wounds due to their superior physical condition.

I would also change Doc's to give a simple +1 to the FnP roll (6+++ as now for boys).
That would generate a smooth progression that would represent how tough they are as they get bigger and beefier.
Yes, that would mean a Warboss close to a doc would have a 4+++. And that is exactly my point. Both fluffy and game oriented.

Alas, I know that relics exist, but I feel any warboss should be this tought rather than resorting to special gits.

I would agree to pay a little extra, let's say 80pts base? +10pts to current version?

I think cybork-body should be an option but I don't like the idea of it stacking with Painboys or it being a part of the datasheet. It could be a Legends datasheet like the Bike Warboss, that also prevents the basic Warboss from having negative Snakebite synergy, I'd certainly let you get a 6+++ for 10 pts including the stacking with Painboy and I'd probably let you get away with 7 pts if you took out that part or 5 pts if you raised the price on power klaws for Warbosses or nerfed Da Killa Klaw Relic, a 5++ is quite a bit stronger, that's basically a free relic for every Warboss, perhabs that's only worth 10 pts for Orks, but I don't really want to see Warbosses getting spammed.

I don't agree that Warbosses are that squishy, T5 6W 4+ Sv is far better than the T3 5W that an Astra Militarum character gets. If you had a Strat for getting a bonus WL trait and suddenly you can make a very tough Warboss with ’ARD AS NAILS (+1 T) and DA BEST ARMOUR TEEF CAN BUY (4+ invuln) WL traits and the SUPA-CYBORK BODY (5+++) Relic. But even if you did have a Stratagem for a bonus WL trait (like SM), you still wouldn't pick these because Da Killa Klaw is too good and these options are pretty bad. If ’ARD AS NAILS was +2 T and SUPA-CYBORK BODY halved damage (to a minimum of 1) as well as gave a 5+++ like the Ynnari Relic then you'd have your super-tough Warboss that would be an option comparable to the classic melee Killa Klaw suicide missile build.

Well, currently is only 1 WT and the 4++ is limited to Bad moons. So there is no way to give both boosters. Problem with the kill klaw (as good as undeniable it is) is how lackuster is the normal klaw. There is a reason why jimmy, tom and any other SM character uses a thunder hammer and not powerfist.

So if orks had access to thunderhammer equivalents you would see many more supa-cybork bosses. Turn out, without the killklaw a warboss can't be called such.

Another point, please, don't compare a pinky flesh bag with a mighty Warboss. ^^. Not their roll, fluff or point value is comparable.

I feel like warbosses should be better than they are. it's a bit of a tricky one to puzzle out, really - I think that:

mega-armour needs to be an option! we always used to use Ghazzie for a megaboss, why do we have to stop?

Cybork should be a lot better - probably 4+++, repaired by meks not healed by painboys, and not compatible with mega aroumr (2+, 4+++ is excessive).

They need more wounds - I know there are a lot of things which deal loads of damage, and they will kill a Warboss, but they should - a Warboss should not take a volcano cannon to the face and live. I think 9 wounds (to keep them protected as a character) is quite fair. I think a buggy should be easier to kill than a Warboss!

I'm not sure about warbosses getting invulnerable saves etc - the only reason they use mega armour is because it makes them more killy, not for the protection of it. a Warboss with a power field to stop him from being hit will be regarded by orks as weaker than one who just takes the hit.


I woder if warbosses could be pumped-up by winning, EG if a Warboss kills a unit in CC, he becomes +1 S, T or W for the game (randomise). could be an option.

Warboss is 4 attacks at S12, AP-3, Dd3. Hits on a 3+ thanks to the -1 Powerklaw penalty.

Against a Knight, that's 8/3 hits.
16/9 wounds.
40/27 unsaved.
80/27 damage, or about 3

With Fists of Gork, that's 6 S16 attacks.
4 hits
10/3 wounds
25/9 unsaved
50/9 damage, or about 5.5

If they ALSO have Might Is Right, that adds 1 attack, for slightly less than an extra point of damage.

If they take Da Killa Klaw, that changes the math a lot. So, if EVERYTHING goes off (Warpath, Fists Of Gork, and probably Da Jump) while they have Da Killa Klaw and Might Is Right...

7 attacks
35/6 hits (Da Killa Klaw has no hit peenalty)
1,225/216 wounds (Da Killa Klaw rerolls wounds)
6,125/1,296 unsaved
6,125/432 damage, or just over 14 damage.

Now, Orks do have both Fight Again and Fight On Death strats, so that Knight is probably dead. Probably. Unless they have Sanctuary, Armor Of The Sainted Ion, or Adamantine Knight.

Anydice says that, when fighting twice, this warboss has a just over 50% chance of one-rounding a Knight Dominous with no buffs, but an 87% chance of one-rounding a Questoris.

But, there's a catch-this Warboss cannot one-round a Knight Valiant. Why?

3d6 S7 AP-2 D2 auto-hits. That's 10.5 hits, 7 wounds, and just under 6 failed saves on average, for a very toasty Warboss.

But yes, if you 1) make your Warlord Might Is Right, 2) give him Da Killa Klaw, 3) cast two psychic powers without failing either, 4) clear all the screens, 5) make the charge, and 6) use 2-3 CP to fight twice, you have a 50/50 shot of one-rounding a Knight Castellan with no defensive buffs.

Edit: My bad, you know Might Is Right OR Warpath, not both, to have that 50.50 chance.

 JNAProductions wrote:
If they take Da Killa Klaw, that changes the math a lot. So, if EVERYTHING goes off (Warpath, Fists Of Gork, and probably Da Jump) while they have Da Killa Klaw and Might Is Right...

7 attacks
35/6 hits (Da Killa Klaw has no hit peenalty)
1,225/216 wounds (Da Killa Klaw rerolls wounds)
6,125/1,296 unsaved
6,125/432 damage, or just over 14 damage.

Now, Orks do have both Fight Again and Fight On Death strats, so that Knight is probably dead. Probably. Unless they have Sanctuary, Armor Of The Sainted Ion, or Adamantine Knight.

Anydice says that, when fighting twice, this warboss has a just over 50% chance of one-rounding a Knight Dominous with no buffs, but an 87% chance of one-rounding a Questoris.

What chance does a Zerker have of killing a Warboss? Either the Killa Klaw is too good and Warbsses need to survive a Zerker or we can just accept that models dying is part of 40k. They had 3 wounds in 7th, giving them 9 is silly, they are not Primarchs. Only a few Orks have ever been Primarch-tier, not the average Warboss.

The reason why I suggested a FnP was to make him more resilient. No one doubts he is killy.

Ideally, something akin to a SM chapter master with thunderhammer in terms of combat ability/resilence. Just no iron halo but a FnP save (more fluffy).

Currently Wbosses are granades, you through them and hope for the best but dont expect to stay in ine piece.

 vict0988 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
If they take Da Killa Klaw, that changes the math a lot. So, if EVERYTHING goes off (Warpath, Fists Of Gork, and probably Da Jump) while they have Da Killa Klaw and Might Is Right...

7 attacks
35/6 hits (Da Killa Klaw has no hit peenalty)
1,225/216 wounds (Da Killa Klaw rerolls wounds)
6,125/1,296 unsaved
6,125/432 damage, or just over 14 damage.

Now, Orks do have both Fight Again and Fight On Death strats, so that Knight is probably dead. Probably. Unless they have Sanctuary, Armor Of The Sainted Ion, or Adamantine Knight.

Anydice says that, when fighting twice, this warboss has a just over 50% chance of one-rounding a Knight Dominous with no buffs, but an 87% chance of one-rounding a Questoris.

What chance does a Zerker have of killing a Warboss? Either the Killa Klaw is too good and Warbsses need to survive a Zerker or we can just accept that models dying is part of 40k. They had 3 wounds in 7th, giving them 9 is silly, they are not Primarchs. Only a few Orks have ever been Primarch-tier, not the average Warboss.

A single, ubnbuffed Berserker Champion with a Power Fist?

Over 50/50 chance, about the same.

The difference is, a Berserker Champion with Power Fist is worth 25 points from an 89 point unit. Being realistic, you gave them Chainaxes, so 93 point unit.

A Warboss that can kill a Knight half the time (assuming they survive overwatch and don't have any defensive buffs) is 80 points.
Plus a 62 point Weirdboy.
Plus either another 62 points for a second Weirdboy or a CP for Warphead.
Plus your Warlord slot or 62 points for a second/third Weirdboy. (Might Is Right or Warpath)
Plus your first Relic, 1 CP for your second, or 3 CP for your third.
Plus 2 CP for fighting in death or 3 CP for fighting again if, by some miracle, he lives.

Not to mention, you want to kill a Castellan? You have a 54.66% of surviving Overwatch from a Cawl's Wrath Castellan.

What's the odds of a Berserker surviving a Warboss's Overwatch again?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
If they take Da Killa Klaw, that changes the math a lot. So, if EVERYTHING goes off (Warpath, Fists Of Gork, and probably Da Jump) while they have Da Killa Klaw and Might Is Right...

7 attacks
35/6 hits (Da Killa Klaw has no hit peenalty)
1,225/216 wounds (Da Killa Klaw rerolls wounds)
6,125/1,296 unsaved
6,125/432 damage, or just over 14 damage.

Now, Orks do have both Fight Again and Fight On Death strats, so that Knight is probably dead. Probably. Unless they have Sanctuary, Armor Of The Sainted Ion, or Adamantine Knight.

Anydice says that, when fighting twice, this warboss has a just over 50% chance of one-rounding a Knight Dominous with no buffs, but an 87% chance of one-rounding a Questoris.

What chance does a Zerker have of killing a Warboss? Either the Killa Klaw is too good and Warbsses need to survive a Zerker or we can just accept that models dying is part of 40k. They had 3 wounds in 7th, giving them 9 is silly, they are not Primarchs. Only a few Orks have ever been Primarch-tier, not the average Warboss.

A single, ubnbuffed Berserker Champion with a Power Fist?

Over 50/50 chance, about the same.

The difference is, a Berserker Champion with Power Fist is worth 25 points from an 89 point unit. Being realistic, you gave them Chainaxes, so 93 point unit.

A Warboss that can kill a Knight half the time (assuming they survive overwatch and don't have any defensive buffs) is 80 points.
Plus a 62 point Weirdboy.
Plus either another 62 points for a second Weirdboy or a CP for Warphead.
Plus your Warlord slot or 62 points for a second/third Weirdboy. (Might Is Right or Warpath)
Plus your first Relic, 1 CP for your second, or 3 CP for your third.
Plus 2 CP for fighting in death or 3 CP for fighting again if, by some miracle, he lives.

Not to mention, you want to kill a Castellan? You have a 54.66% of surviving Overwatch from a Cawl's Wrath Castellan.

What's the odds of a Berserker surviving a Warboss's Overwatch again?

No, a single un-buffed Berzerker, not a champion with a PF. The champion needs 9 other Berzerkers and a Rhino to make it in, that's another 210 pts, which makes it far more expensive relative to the Warboss Knight-hunter combo.

I don't agree that you need to Da Jump the Warboss most of the time, you also never pay 3 CP for a third relic since you can get a third relic for 1 CP in the Specialist Detachment and the only two Relics 99% of Ork lists run are SSAG and KK, that's 1 CP, I've never heard of anyone running 4 relics in their Ork list. You can charge a Castellan from behind a ruin without taking overwatch half the time. You are making it out to be way harder to hunt Knights than it really is. The KK Warboss has topped ten or twenty tournaments this year AFAIK, precisely because they are so good at what they do.

Arguing Warbosses should be tougher does not compute for me, I don't believe the average Warboss is that tough in the lore, but please prove me otherwise, I'll go see if I can prove myself wrong. Which is why I suggested a different datasheet and a Stratagem that allows you to double up on WL traits for one Warboss for when you want a really badass Warboss. 5+ FNP is the same as giving him 9 wounds btw. Same as 10 wounds if you assume that you get Painboy bonus.

Lol at the proposition that a T5, 6W 4+ save character is durable.

Also lol that 4 Str 12 attacks hitting on 3+ with D3 damage is considered decent.

Warbosses are useless at the moment.

They aren't killy unless they get their relic klaw into combat and double fight. A standard warboss with no relics and no stratagems/psychic powers buffing him is trash tier.

They need a 4++ for durability at least. That should be standard. Or a 5+++.

They also need a buff to their damage output, either more attacks (5-6), the option to take a standard piece of wargear that is a thunderhammer equivalent or both. The relic klaw should be debuffed to compensate, potentially.

That way we might have warbosses that feel like they provide a useful function, other than keeping Grots in line (which is so unfluffy it hurts) and from attempting to suicide missile into a target (which will become even more impossible when legends is a thing in competitive play).

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Lol at the proposition that a T5, 6W 4+ save character is durable.

Also lol that 4 Str 12 attacks hitting on 3+ with D3 damage is considered decent.

Warbosses are useless at the moment.

They aren't killy unless they get their relic klaw into combat and double fight. A standard warboss with no relics and no stratagems/psychic powers buffing him is trash tier.

They need a 4++ for durability at least. That should be standard. Or a 5+++.

They also need a buff to their damage output, either more attacks (5-6), the option to take a standard piece of wargear that is a thunderhammer equivalent or both. The relic klaw should be debuffed to compensate, potentially.

That way we might have warbosses that feel like they provide a useful function, other than keeping Grots in line (which is so unfluffy it hurts) and from attempting to suicide missile into a target (which will become even more impossible when legends is a thing in competitive play).

I don't think anyone said he was durable, I said he isn't and shouldn't be by default. I think he should have the option of becoming tough, other posters have suggested he become tough by default. I don't know why you think a Warboss is trash tier, the game has gotted out of hand when 3x your value in a round is just kind of okay.

 vict0988 wrote:

I don't think anyone said he was durable, I said he isn't and shouldn't be by default.

 vict0988 wrote:

I don't agree that Warbosses are that squishy, T5 6W 4+ Sv is far better than the T3 5W that an Astra Militarum character gets.

I think he should have the option of becoming tough, other posters have suggested he become tough by default.

Other posters have suggested that the warboss should be comparable to other HQ choices of a similar cost in terms of durability. They are currently unable to perform their function or act in a way representative of the lore on the tabletop because they lack a basic invulnerable save.

I don't know why you think a Warboss is trash tier, the game has gotted out of hand when 3x your value in a round is just kind of okay.

The foot warboss is trash tier for a number of reasons, primarily because it serves no purpose. For a start he is too slow and too easily killed, even when relying on expensive character support. The only competitive run of the killa klaw relic of yore (they don't really feature in competitive Ork lists anymore) was on a biker boss that will soon become unavailable for tournament play. The only other time I have seen a warboss on foot in a tournament setting it was used to help with morale mitigation for a massive contingent of Grots. I believe it spent most games out of los. The same thing can be achieved with a runtherd for much less, but he doesn't fill a HQ slot. I'm not sure what you mean with your statement around 3x the value but again; the boss has garbage base damage without relics, psychic support and stratagems.

To refocus the discussion, how should be a normal warboss in your head?

My approach would be a lesser version of Ghazskull.

So
5" 2+ 4+ s6 t5 6w 4a ld9 sv4+
Rules
- "extra tough" FnP (5+)
- breaking heads (as currently)
- "waagh" run and charge for infantry & +1A if wholy within 6" (lesser version of great waagh).

Access to kustom klaw (1cp), same as master crafted (+1 damage).


Pts around 100 with the PK.
------------


Giving a FnP (5+) is only the same as increasing the number of wounds (2) if you consider the average.

In 4th ed you can give Warbosses a Cybork body, which grants a 5++ save. I dunno why it didn't end up in the codex (outside of a relic, which is dumb), but it really should have been in there.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

I don't think anyone said he was durable, I said he isn't and shouldn't be by default.

 vict0988 wrote:

I don't agree that Warbosses are that squishy, T5 6W 4+ Sv is far better than the T3 5W that an Astra Militarum character gets.

I think he should have the option of becoming tough, other posters have suggested he become tough by default.

Other posters have suggested that the warboss should be comparable to other HQ choices of a similar cost in terms of durability. They are currently unable to perform their function or act in a way representative of the lore on the tabletop because they lack a basic invulnerable save.

I don't know why you think a Warboss is trash tier, the game has gotted out of hand when 3x your value in a round is just kind of okay.

The foot warboss is trash tier for a number of reasons, primarily because it serves no purpose. For a start he is too slow and too easily killed, even when relying on expensive character support. The only competitive run of the killa klaw relic of yore (they don't really feature in competitive Ork lists anymore) was on a biker boss that will soon become unavailable for tournament play. The only other time I have seen a warboss on foot in a tournament setting it was used to help with morale mitigation for a massive contingent of Grots. I believe it spent most games out of los. The same thing can be achieved with a runtherd for much less, but he doesn't fill a HQ slot. I'm not sure what you mean with your statement around 3x the value but again; the boss has garbage base damage without relics, psychic support and stratagems.

When did I contradict myself? I said that he wasn't that squishy, that's not the same as saying he is tough. The reason I mentioned Company Commanders was because someone mentioned them having a 5++, Orks should not come with an invulnerable save base because that's counter to their lore IMO. I think the base Warboss is the right amount of squishy, although I think some of the cost of the Warboss should be lifted and transferred to make KK worse or just directly transfer 10- pts off the Warboss over to the basic PK (25 pts WARBOSS only). Ideally, I'd like to see the KK nerfed and PK more expensive for Warbosses but GW have gone of the rails with their Relics and WL traits of late so it'd probably be more well-received to just make all relics busted.

What other choice of similar cost has 6 wounds T5? Necron Overlords have 1 less attack, a single-target buff instead of two auras, 5W T5 3+/4++ vs 6W T5 4+/7++. The average Ork Warboss should not be Primarch tier in terms of number of wounds, as soon as you put him in Mega-armour there's nothing anyone without a Thunderhammer can put up against him, that's a basic Warboss without any upgrades. A Warboss without upgrades or mega-armour should not be able to wrestle a Carnifex. Should Thraka or your own Warlord (in the Ork sense of the word) you paid CP to make awesome be able to? Heck yeah. What I'm saying is there needs to exist a profile for the leader of a relatively small band of Orks, that's the current Warboss, he's one of the tougher characters in the game because of his size and biology, but he lacks some of the powerful weapons and armours most other commanders have access to and he's probably not that bright. But then there are the real badass Orks, the ones that have multiple Warbosses under them and I can see how you might feel that the current Warboss is not strong enough to represent that, but if you just make the basic Warboss into that you'll no longer have the Lieutenant-tier unit. I'd also like to know what Ork Warbosses have an invulnerable save in the lore.

You're wrong, multiple lists over the past two months have topped events running multiple on-foot Warbosses and every single top Ork list in the past 6 months have run a PK Warboss on bike or on foot and at least half the lists have run no bike Warboss. If you've stopped running a KK Warboss you're shooting yourself in the foot. Warbosses have two different aura abilities, one of which is amazing and the other one being okay.

Giving a FnP (5+) is only the same as increasing the number of wounds (2) if you consider the average.

Nope, 50%. 9 wounds becomes 6 wounds after FNP 5+. You multiply by the number of facings on the dice you roll (6), divide by the number of facings that go through your FNP (4).
6*6/4=9
9/6-1=0,5
0,5*100%=50%

10 wounds with FNP 6+ is the same as 6 wounds with FNP 4+.
6*6/3=12
10*6/5=12
12/12=1

Giving a FnP (5+) is only the same as increasing the number of wounds (2) if you consider the average.

Nope, 50%. 9 wounds becomes 6 wounds after FNP 5+. You multiply by the number of facings on the dice you roll (6), divide by the number of facings that go through your FNP (4).
6*6/4=9
9/6-1=0,5
0,5*100%=50%

10 wounds with FNP 6+ is the same as 6 wounds with FNP 4+.
6*6/3=12
10*6/5=12
12/12=1

Fine 3, except that again you are considering a perfectly spread of results.
My point being that is not the same to have 9w or 6w +fnp(5++). In the second incarnation dice rolls are involved, right?

Also, for 4+++ that would bring you to "10" wounds you would need to pay a Painboy, have him close and blablabla.

As for comparing the Warboss, please use a chapter master rather than a Primark. That's what we should aim to.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

Giving a FnP (5+) is only the same as increasing the number of wounds (2) if you consider the average.

Nope, 50%. 9 wounds becomes 6 wounds after FNP 5+. You multiply by the number of facings on the dice you roll (6), divide by the number of facings that go through your FNP (4).
6*6/4=9
9/6-1=0,5
0,5*100%=50%

10 wounds with FNP 6+ is the same as 6 wounds with FNP 4+.
6*6/3=12
10*6/5=12
12/12=1

Fine 3, except that again you are considering a perfectly spread of results.
My point being that is not the same to have 9w or 6w +fnp(5++). In the second incarnation dice rolls are involved, right?

Also, for 4+++ that would bring you to "10" wounds you would need to pay a Painboy, have him close and blablabla.

As for comparing the Warboss, please use a chapter master rather than a Primark. That's what we should aim to.

Well 5+ FNP can mean anything from +0% wounds to +5000% wounds, 50% is just the average.

What I was saying with the Painboy was that going from 5+++ to 4+++ is better than getting a 6+++ for a 9 wound Warboss, so the 5+++ is actually better than the 9 wounds in some niche cases. Most Ork players don't like Painboys much so it's only something that becomes relevant if Painboys get buffed, but why stop at the Warboss? You have to think how one change might affect other changes. Like if you give every model in an army the ability to ignore the penalty for moving and shooting and re-roll 1s for heavy weapons and -1 AP for heavy weapons, could that possibly have an effect on how good units are? You don't want the Warboss to be the anchor holding Painboys from being good enough to support Boys just because he has synergy with a Warboss.

A Chapter Master has 5 wounds, 6 wounds if it's a unique character. What is the Ork equivalent of a Lieutenant and a Captain in your world?

At this point, I feel like vict0988 has a personal vendetta against Orks, everytime they're brought up in this sub-forum he flies in and says any buffs we give them is unwarranted and often he wants nerfs that make no sense, especially within the context of the thread. I can't see how Warbosses, given how hardy they are in the fluff, are seen as survivable at all on the tabletop given how easily they die to any form of multi-wound weapon.

Cybork body as an option for a 5+ invuln is absolutely mandatory IMO, given its previous existence in our 4th ed codex. I wouldn't mind a baseline FNP save, but then you'd have to consider the overlap with the Snakebites Kultur and making it either have to stack or make it useless altogether. I would opt for something similar to what Abominants and Aberrants have from GSC and give him "Dead 'Ard" which is reducing incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Add that with the 5++ save and he can reasonably survive D3 damage weapons and have a chance that 2 wounds that go through from a TH won't just splat him instantly.

At minimum Warbosses should have had a 6+++ from the get-go, and Snakebites add a bonus to that. That would be a good start.

 vict0988 wrote:

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

Giving a FnP (5+) is only the same as increasing the number of wounds (2) if you consider the average.

Nope, 50%. 9 wounds becomes 6 wounds after FNP 5+. You multiply by the number of facings on the dice you roll (6), divide by the number of facings that go through your FNP (4).
6*6/4=9
9/6-1=0,5
0,5*100%=50%

10 wounds with FNP 6+ is the same as 6 wounds with FNP 4+.
6*6/3=12
10*6/5=12
12/12=1

Fine 3, except that again you are considering a perfectly spread of results.
My point being that is not the same to have 9w or 6w +fnp(5++). In the second incarnation dice rolls are involved, right?

Also, for 4+++ that would bring you to "10" wounds you would need to pay a Painboy, have him close and blablabla.

As for comparing the Warboss, please use a chapter master rather than a Primark. That's what we should aim to.

A Chapter Master has 5 wounds, 6 wounds if it's a unique character. What is the Ork equivalent of a Lieutenant and a Captain in your world?

Sorry but no. A primaris captain has the following profile for a base cost of 78pts.
6" 2+ 2+ s4 t4 6w 5a (6 on the 1st turn) ld 9 3+ save and a 4++ from iron halo.
Rerolling 1s to hit for attacks at 6" CHAPTER.

How many more wounds "count as" would you evaluate the inv save?

Primaris Captains also hit like a wet noodle without going strictly Plasma Pistol + Power Fist.

 vict0988 wrote:
No, a single un-buffed Berzerker, not a champion with a PF. The champion needs 9 other Berzerkers and a Rhino to make it in, that's another 210 pts, which makes it far more expensive relative to the Warboss Knight-hunter combo.

I don't agree that you need to Da Jump the Warboss most of the time, you also never pay 3 CP for a third relic since you can get a third relic for 1 CP in the Specialist Detachment and the only two Relics 99% of Ork lists run are SSAG and KK, that's 1 CP, I've never heard of anyone running 4 relics in their Ork list. You can charge a Castellan from behind a ruin without taking overwatch half the time. You are making it out to be way harder to hunt Knights than it really is. The KK Warboss has topped ten or twenty tournaments this year AFAIK, precisely because they are so good at what they do.

Arguing Warbosses should be tougher does not compute for me, I don't believe the average Warboss is that tough in the lore, but please prove me otherwise, I'll go see if I can prove myself wrong. Which is why I suggested a different datasheet and a Stratagem that allows you to double up on WL traits for one Warboss for when you want a really badass Warboss. 5+ FNP is the same as giving him 9 wounds btw. Same as 10 wounds if you assume that you get Painboy bonus.

I'm sorry, but a Warboss (with a measly 5" move) needs no support to hit a Knight, but a Berserker needs a 10-man squad AND a Rhino to have any chance? How does that make sense?

You'll also note that I didn't say "Da Killa Klaw is 2 CP," I said "Da Killa Klaw is either your Relic pick, your second Relic (1 CP), or your third Relic (2 extra CP)." I did forget about specialist detachments, allowing you to get... Actually no, it's the same price or more expensive. Da Killa Klaw plus Souped-Up Shokka is actually 2 CP (1 for the Detachment, 1 for a second Relic).

But okay, let's check Berserkers with Chainaxes! Or is that too much of a buff for you?

6 wounds
5+ save makes that 9
3+ to-wound makes that 13.5
3+ to-hit makes that 20.25

So, you'd need 21 swings on average to kill a Warboss with Chainaxes. Anydice says that's a 62% chance with 21 swings.

Which, I should remind you, is less than what a minimum squad of Zerkers puts out. They've got 3 attacks each on the charge (4 on the champ) and Fight Twice by default.

A few points to the last commentary

- zekers can have a chanaxe AND a chainsword for ultra CC killyness.

- 1st relic is free (Kklaw), if you get the special detach (1cp) so does the supashock. So both relics are 1cp.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
A few points to the last commentary

- zekers can have a chanaxe AND a chainsword for ultra CC killyness.

- 1st relic is free (Kklaw), if you get the special detach (1cp) so does the supashock. So both relics are 1cp.

1) fair.

2) I'm pretty sure that it just adds another Relic to the list you can take-I don't believe it's free with the Detachment. I could be wrong, though, in which case...

I still question why the Warboss is allowed a Psychic Power or three, a Warlord Trait, a Relic, and is assumed to be charging an un-screened Knight from behind LoS-blocking terrain, but Zerkers can't even take a Powerfist.

 Grimskul wrote:
At this point, I feel like vict0988 has a personal vendetta against Orks, everytime they're brought up in this sub-forum he flies in and says any buffs we give them is unwarranted and often he wants nerfs that make no sense, especially within the context of the thread. I can't see how Warbosses, given how hardy they are in the fluff, are seen as survivable at all on the tabletop given how easily they die to any form of multi-wound weapon.

Cybork body as an option for a 5+ invuln is absolutely mandatory IMO, given its previous existence in our 4th ed codex. I wouldn't mind a baseline FNP save, but then you'd have to consider the overlap with the Snakebites Kultur and making it either have to stack or make it useless altogether. I would opt for something similar to what Abominants and Aberrants have from GSC and give him "Dead 'Ard" which is reducing incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Add that with the 5++ save and he can reasonably survive D3 damage weapons and have a chance that 2 wounds that go through from a TH won't just splat him instantly.

You're right with Vict and your suggestion for Ork warbosses. A 5++ should be included and possibly extra buffs in addition.

As their main issue is multi-wound weaponry, giving them an ability to take -1 damage to a minimum of 1 would be a good option. FnP would also be welcome, and fit the fluff. you could even tie it to not showing weakness, and have it relate to the number of ORK models within 12" (6+++ default, +1 for every 10 ORK models within 9"), meaning a green tide with a core of warbosses would be a valid, fluffy and effective approach. with 40 ORKS within 9" (quite the crowd) they would have 2+++ FnP. seems a fair investment.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You'll also note that I didn't say "Da Killa Klaw is 2 CP," I said "Da Killa Klaw is either your Relic pick, your second Relic (1 CP), or your third Relic (2 extra CP)." I did forget about specialist detachments, allowing you to get... Actually no, it's the same price or more expensive. Da Killa Klaw plus Souped-Up Shokka is actually 2 CP (1 for the Detachment, 1 for a second Relic).

But okay, let's check Berserkers with Chainaxes! Or is that too much of a buff for you?

6 wounds
5+ save makes that 9
3+ to-wound makes that 13.5
3+ to-hit makes that 20.25

So, you'd need 21 swings on average to kill a Warboss with Chainaxes. Anydice says that's a 62% chance with 21 swings.

Which, I should remind you, is less than what a minimum squad of Zerkers puts out. They've got 3 attacks each on the charge (4 on the champ) and Fight Twice by default.

Dreadwaaagh is mandatory in competitive Ork lists, acting like that makes the KK 2 CP is not fair. KK is never 2CP, it is only ever 1 CP. If you just take the SSAG it's 1 CP, if you take the SSAG and another relic it's 1 CP. It's only if you take SSAG and two other relics that the KK is 2 CP which is why no one takes 4 relics in Ork lists.

A Berzerker does an average of 2,11 damage to a Warboss, 1,63 to a Captain.
*2,84 Zerkers kill a Warboss.
*3,41 Zerkers kill a 6+++ Warboss.
*4,27 Zerkers kill a 5+++ Warboss.
*3,07 to kill a Captain.
*3,68 to kill a Chapter Master Kayvaan Shrike.

Can we at least agree that the 5+++ Warboss numbers are too high? Keep in mind that no new models are coming out for the Warboss, we're not talking about the Orruks from AoS and these changes would also have to be applied to Ghasgkull and Megabosses.

 Grimskul wrote:
At this point, I feel like vict0988 has a personal vendetta against Orks, everytime they're brought up in this sub-forum he flies in and says any buffs we give them is unwarranted and often he wants nerfs that make no sense, especially within the context of the thread. I can't see how Warbosses, given how hardy they are in the fluff, are seen as survivable at all on the tabletop given how easily they die to any form of multi-wound weapon.

Cybork body as an option for a 5+ invuln is absolutely mandatory IMO, given its previous existence in our 4th ed codex. I wouldn't mind a baseline FNP save, but then you'd have to consider the overlap with the Snakebites Kultur and making it either have to stack or make it useless altogether. I would opt for something similar to what Abominants and Aberrants have from GSC and give him "Dead 'Ard" which is reducing incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Add that with the 5++ save and he can reasonably survive D3 damage weapons and have a chance that 2 wounds that go through from a TH won't just splat him instantly.

Confirmation bias, I agree Stompas, Trukks and Battlewagons need buffs, nobody really talks about Nobs but I feel like they need a buff more urgently than Warbosses although I understand why you would want your main melee character to be on-par with enemy fighters and if I had played against more Warbosses that were used to actually duel instead of just instantly obliterating tanks, then maybe I'd change my mind. I'm no more stringent on Orks than on any other faction, I just don't think endless buffs leads to a good place, it leads to endless bloat with a bazillion rules, players forgetting their FNP half the game and inevitably to OP things like IH being released. I'd rather nerf Zerkers than buff Warbosses because they get killed too easily, what's supposed to come of Hormagaunts? Do we double their attacks at some point as well? I just push back when people claim things like "Warbosses are trash", when they clearly good enough to top tournaments. I push back against people that claim Necrons are trash far more often though, I don't have a special hatred for Orks, Necron players don't ask for buffs to Tesla Immortals though. Actually I think someone did, I just felt it was so amazingly unintelligent that it wasn't worth discussing, while giving a Warboss some kind of durability buff definitely has upsides that I can see I just wanted to level some input at what the downsides might be and exactly what the value of any changes you wish to implement are.

I think cybork body makes more sense as a 6+++, IH and AdMech set opposite precedents so 5++ is a valid option but IMO Cybork Body needs to be optional and should come with a model or a conversion guide. I still think a Lieutenant/Captain equivalent is needed for the Orks, it shouldn't just go from Company Veterans directly to Primaris Chapter Master.