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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I'd like to start this by saying that I do honestly think codex T'au is one of the most well balanced codexes in this edition. I've plenty of options to enjoy and play with. Most options don't scream bad, yet some regardless some are obvious takes over others. Here I'll be suggesting some basic changes to allow more potential diversity in the codex. I will first list the unit, the change to the unit, and the reasoning behind it. I'll be focusing on point changes, as they're the easiest to implement.


---- Troops ----

Strike team: Pulse rifle costs 1 point.
This makes it so pulse carbines actually have a role while making strike teams less of a no brainer. It also allows one to consider breachers as well, as they're no longer being compared 1:1 with fire warriors with pulse carbines.

Breachers: 6 points a model (Previously 7 per model). Pistol is made free.
Breachers are bad. Their numbers don't make it look like it, but mechanically they serve no real purpose besides maybe deterring people from getting too close. Compared to even fire warriors with carbines, they're lacking. The pistol should be free because it is bad.

Kroot: 4 points each. (Previously 5 points each)
Kroot are worse guardsmen. While they have some neat tools guardsmen lack, the value of them is questionable. the +1 inch of movement, scout move, and tac marine melee, really aren't that insane when you consider they lose 1 LD and are a 6+ compared to a 5+. Kroot currently costs more per squad than a min squad of fire warriors. Their ability to harm deep strikes due to their scout move is made far less valuable because of the changes to turn 1 deep strikes. I feel like making them 4 points would make them a cheap unit of bodies that allows them to actually be considered and gives them a role.

Pathfinders: Made to troop choices (Previously fast attack), lowered to 4 points base
Allowing them to be brought as troops makes them far more easily considered as an option. I've found the thing that always has held them back is their fast attack designation. Allowing a tau support unit in the troop slot makes it so you can enable more interesting strategies as well and make fluffier lists. I'm considering this more of a quality of life change than a balance focused one, but I'm certain it'd make a lot of tau players enjoy the codex more.

---- Fast Attack ----

Drones: look out sir! on a 3+
Drones are part of what keep tau competetive, but I've found that this is because of what I have to define as cheese. Drones are dumb. I have yet to find a single opponent who finds their interaction fun, and I honestly feel dirty making entire turns of shooting mean nothing because I could get some 10 point models out of sight. I don't like it being codex riptide wing and friends, and I believe hurting drones is a large step in fixing this.

Piranhas: 17 points base (45 after wargear vs 58)
The role Piranhas have always played in the codex is as cheap fast moving speed bumps with some extra utility. I see no reason not to let them take this role again, as currently, they have none. At 45 you'll be able to actually find a use for the sad model.

Vespid: 12 points (from 14)
Vespid are almost good. They're fast, have a good gun, and honestly, are very close to being good models. What's holding them back is just being a tad too expensive to fit comfortably in most lists. This small push should get them buzzing on the field more often.

---- Heavy Support ----

Sniper drones: 14 points (from 18)
This unit needs the points drop desperately. Compared to other sniper units (chiefly space marine scouts) the unit is effectively going to land you 1 less shot, at 2 fewer bs. At 14, you're making them pay for the extra str compared to scouts. As it stands right now, 18 points is an insane amount of cost, and even at 14 I don't know if it'll be enough to make up for the unit's mechanical issues, namely that it's hard as could be to get markerlight hits on characters, and the unit only hits on 5s naturally.

Hammerhead: Lower the railgun's cost to 5 points, (125 points per tank down from 150 base), Ion cannon lowered to 20 points (140 per tank down from 155).
Now, I know what you're thinking "10 points for a better lascannon?" but hear me out. Anything that can take a railgun is paying out the nose for the pleasure of taking a rail gun. Compare the rail-head to a skyray. A skyray's chassis is worth 80 points and is identical to a hammerhead's, which is worth 100 points base. As it stands a skyray is a vastly superior weapon of war than the hammerhead. It can fire 6 str 8, ap-2, d6 dmg shots at bs3 (bs 2 vs fly) shots on turn one, after which it operates as a 13 wounds, 12 inch move, bs 3 marker light platform and bumper annoyance vs midfield shooting units. The hammerhead is 150 points for a slightly better lascannon. The ion cannon is good, but not really better than a lot of other options in the codex, so bringing down just a bit might get it seen more often as well.

---- Transport ----

Devilfish: -28 points. (70 after wargear vs 98.
This unit is essentially 100 points for a burst cannon. It costs more than what it transports. Compared to other dedicated transports it's grossly overpriced. It's tough, comes with fly, but at its current price point is just does nothing. There are no tau units save breachers who really crave the added mobility to thing offers. If it was this dirt cheap, maybe you'd see people run breachers and not be absolutely ruined for it. Keep in mind, at 70 points, it's still doubling the cost of almost any tau infantry that'd be using it for moving around the board. The tank is basically a chassis with 4 shots. It'll be 2 points cheaper than a rhino, but it also has far less worthwhile infantry to carry than a rhino, and essentially this tank would need to justify it's cost to some degree without any support because it's carrying capacity means so little to tau as an army.

---- Elites ----

Riptide: +20 points (Burstcannon riptide with SMS and ATS at 288 points from 268)
I'm rather unhappy to see this edition of tau once again become riptide wing. I feel that riptides need a nerf. Considering I already called for the knee-capping of drones, I feel I should verge on something subtle when it comes to hurting riptides. A 20 point raise is a slap on the wrist I feel, but this compounded with the hurt to drones from earlier I think would cement riptides as back in line with the rest of the dex, or at least leave them making less of a power black hole in the unit roster.




I feel these changes would help tau's style of play as well as list building diversify a tad. I have a few changes I feel I could recommend beyond just these, but I don't feel confident enough about those ones to say "this is a healthy fix" without fear of possibly messing with things. I've tried to help specific units and not target specific guns used throughout multiple unit cards and the like, because I want to avoid hurting or over buffing unintended targets.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 02:06:05


 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

I’m sorry but your changes just make Tau not competitive. You won’t “not see drones and riptides” you won’t see tau.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






Iowa

 Jaxler wrote:
I'd like to start this by saying that I do honestly think codex T'au is one of the most well balanced codexes in this edition. I've plenty of options to enjoy and play with. Most options don't scream bad, yet some regardless some are obvious takes over others. Here I'll be suggesting some basic changes to allow more potential diversity in the codex. I will first list the unit, the change to the unit, and the reasoning behind it. I'll be focusing on point changes, as they're the easiest to implement.


---- Troops ----

Strike team: Pulse rifle costs 1 point.
This makes it so pulse carbines actually have a role while making strike teams less of a no brainer. It also allows one to consider breachers as well, as they're no longer being compared 1:1 with fire warriors with pulse carbines.

Breachers: 6 points a model (Previously 7 per model). Pistol is made free.
Breachers are bad. Their numbers don't make it look like it, but mechanically they serve no real purpose besides maybe deterring people from getting too close. Compared to even fire warriors with carbines, they're lacking. The pistol should be free because it is bad.

Kroot: 4 points each. (Previously 5 points each)
Kroot are worse guardsmen. While they have some neat tools guardsmen lack, the value of them is questionable. the +1 inch of movement, scout move, and tac marine melee, really aren't that insane when you consider they lose 1 LD and are a 6+ compared to a 5+. Kroot currently costs more per squad than a min squad of fire warriors. Their ability to harm deep strikes due to their scout move is made far less valuable because of the changes to turn 1 deep strikes. I feel like making them 4 points would make them a cheap unit of bodies that allows them to actually be considered and gives them a role.

Pathfinders: Made to troop choices (Previously fast attack), lowered to 4 points base
Allowing them to be brought as troops makes them far more easily considered as an option. I've found the thing that always has held them back is their fast attack designation. Allowing a tau support unit in the troop slot makes it so you can enable more interesting strategies as well and make fluffier lists. I'm considering this more of a quality of life change than a balance focused one, but I'm certain it'd make a lot of tau players enjoy the codex more.

---- Fast Attack ----

Drones: look out sir! on a 3+
Drones are part of what keep tau competetive, but I've found that this is because of what I have to define as cheese. Drones are dumb. I have yet to find a single opponent who finds their interaction fun, and I honestly feel dirty making entire turns of shooting mean nothing because I could get some 10 point models out of sight. I don't like it being codex riptide wing and friends, and I believe hurting drones is a large step in fixing this.

Piranhas: 17 points base (45 after wargear vs 58)
The role Piranhas have always played in the codex is as cheap fast moving speed bumps with some extra utility. I see no reason not to let them take this role again, as currently, they have none. At 45 you'll be able to actually find a use for the sad model.

Vespid: 12 points (from 14)
Vespid are almost good. They're fast, have a good gun, and honestly, are very close to being good models. What's holding them back is just being a tad too expensive to fit comfortably in most lists. This small push should get them buzzing on the field more often.

---- Heavy Support ----

Sniper drones: 14 points (from 18)
This unit needs the points drop desperately. Compared to other sniper units (chiefly space marine scouts) the unit is effectively going to land you 1 less shot, at 2 fewer bs. At 14, you're making them pay for the extra str compared to scouts. As it stands right now, 18 points is an insane amount of cost, and even at 14 I don't know if it'll be enough to make up for the unit's mechanical issues, namely that it's hard as could be to get markerlight hits on characters, and the unit only hits on 5s naturally.

Hammerhead: Lower the railgun's cost to 5 points, (125 points per tank down from 150 base), Ion cannon lowered to 20 points (140 per tank down from 155).
Now, I know what you're thinking "10 points for a better lascannon?" but hear me out. Anything that can take a railgun is paying out the nose for the pleasure of taking a rail gun. Compare the rail-head to a skyray. A skyray's chassis is worth 80 points and is identical to a hammerhead's, which is worth 100 points base. As it stands a skyray is a vastly superior weapon of war than the hammerhead. It can fire 6 str 8, ap-2, d6 dmg shots at bs3 (bs 2 vs fly) shots on turn one, after which it operates as a 13 wounds, 12 inch move, bs 3 marker light platform and bumper annoyance vs midfield shooting units. The hammerhead is 150 points for a slightly better lascannon. The ion cannon is good, but not really better than a lot of other options in the codex, so bringing down just a bit might get it seen more often as well.

---- Transport ----

Devilfish: -28 points. (70 after wargear vs 98.
This unit is essentially 100 points for a burst cannon. It costs more than what it transports. Compared to other dedicated transports it's grossly overpriced. It's tough, comes with fly, but at its current price point is just does nothing. There are no tau units save breachers who really crave the added mobility to thing offers. If it was this dirt cheap, maybe you'd see people run breachers and not be absolutely ruined for it. Keep in mind, at 70 points, it's still doubling the cost of almost any tau infantry that'd be using it for moving around the board. The tank is basically a chassis with 4 shots. It'll be 2 points cheaper than a rhino, but it also has far less worthwhile infantry to carry than a rhino, and essentially this tank would need to justify it's cost to some degree without any support because it's carrying capacity means so little to tau as an army.

---- Elites ----

Riptide: +20 points (Burstcannon riptide with SMS and ATS at 288 points from 268)
I'm rather unhappy to see this edition of tau once again become riptide wing. I feel that riptides need a nerf. Considering I already called for the knee-capping of drones, I feel I should verge on something subtle when it comes to hurting riptides. A 20 point raise is a slap on the wrist I feel, but this compounded with the hurt to drones from earlier I think would cement riptides as back in line with the rest of the dex, or at least leave them making less of a power black hole in the unit roster.




I feel these changes would help tau's style of play as well as list building diversify a tad. I have a few changes I feel I could recommend beyond just these, but I don't feel confident enough about those ones to say "this is a healthy fix" without fear of possibly messing with things. I've tried to help specific units and not target specific guns used throughout multiple unit cards and the like, because I want to avoid hurting or over buffing unintended targets.

This should be in Proposed Rules.

If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I’m sorry but your changes just make Tau not competitive. You won’t “not see drones and riptides” you won’t see tau.


I think the game would be in a far less healthy place if everything worked to the same standard as what is considered competitive.
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Vespids are one of the best units in Tau codex...

14" M, BS4+, with 18" Assault 2 S5 AP-2 with deepstrike at 14 points.

Noone takes them because of their looks, and due to how mandatory riptides + drones are, not because they're bad/overcosted.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/10/30 13:19:41


 
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre



california

 Jaxler wrote:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I’m sorry but your changes just make Tau not competitive. You won’t “not see drones and riptides” you won’t see tau.


I think the game would be in a far less healthy place if everything worked to the same standard as what is considered competitive.

If you don’t play competitive, then it doesn’t matter the points and rules of the units you said... you’re playing for fun and shouldn’t care about the rest. If you got a single fire warrior for 2000 points with the same rules he has now, you shouldn’t care because you love tau and that’s what you wanna play.
   
Made in dk
Loyal Necron Lychguard






I think drones should just have a +1 T aura. Basically never annoying to play against, as a Tau player you don't need to invest in Drones as heavily but can instead take an amount that fits with how much you value your +1T. Shield Drones are good for keeping out of LOS and giving the extra T, without ruining games when your can't get to them. Tau would have to be tested and balanced heavily for this change, it'd be freaking huge and I'd be extremely worried about shutting down battlesuits as a competitive option. I still feel this would be a very healthy possible route development for Tau could have taken, with the route they went with being possibly the most toxic route possible, a Gauss Pylon killing 0,67 drones per wound is too little. Changing it to a 3+ would probably just make it a more enticing trap to shoot lascannons at Suits with drones rather than an actually good choice, it might have to be changed to 4+. Back in earlier editions you couldn't use drones after taking a wound, that would also be an option, if you have a wounded model the Drones won't intercept.

Markerlights should not apply before the unit has finished shooting, so you don't have to resolve 1 shot at a time to fish for the re-roll 1s result. Or maybe Markerlights should always just treat the enemy as having 5 Markerlights to make them better against things with -2/-3 to hit which can otherwise be more or less impossible to shoot with anything but Commanders and Fireblades.

In terms of pts changes there is this thread: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778872.page

My suggestions from the thread:
Spoiler:

Blacklight Marker Drones - 7
Breacher Team - 6
Cadre Fireblade - 47
Commander in XV8 Crisis Battlesuit - 70
Commander in XV85 Enforcer Battlesuit - 75
Commander in XV86 Coldstar Battlesuit - 90
DX-6 Remora Stealth Drone Squadron - 30
Firesight Marksman - 25
KX139 Ta’unar Supremacy Armour - 750
Longstrike - 150
Manta Super-heavy Dropship - 1500
TY7 Devilfish - 70
TX4 Piranhas - 30
TX7 Fire Support Hammerhead Gunship - 100
TX7 Heavy Bombardment Hammerhead Gunship - 100
TX78 Sky Ray Gunship - 80
XV88 Broadside Battlesuit 1-3 35
XV8 Crisis Battlesuits - 20
XV8 Crisis Bodyguards - 22
XV9 Hazard Support Team - 40
XV95 Ghostkeel Battlesuit - 70

Commander Farsight - 125
Commander Shadowsun - 125
Darkstrider - 55
MV1 Gun Drone - 9
MV52 Shield Drone - 12

The Eight - 1200

Advanced targeting system (Ghostkeel, Riptide and Stormsurge) - 25
Advanced targeting system (Broadside and BS 2+) - 15
Advanced targeting system (all other models) - 5
Airbursting fragmentation projector - 10
Airbursting fragmentation projector (BS 2+) - 15
Burst cannon - 10
Burst cannon (BS 2+) - 15
Counterfire defence system - 5
XV8-02 Crisis Iridium battlesuit - 10
Cyclic ion blaster - 20
Cyclic ion blaster (BS 2+) - 30
Cyclic ion raker - 30
Flamer - 5
Fusion blaster - 20
Fusion blaster (BS 2+) - 30
Fusion collider - 30
Fusion eradicator - 50
Heavy burst cannon - 40
Heavy rail cannon - 50
High-output burst cannon - 30
Ion accelerator - 30
Long-barreled burst cannon - 15
Missile pod - 17
Missile pod (BS 2+) - 25
Nexus meteor missile system - 150
Pulse blastcannon - 50
Pulse blaster - 2
Pulse driver cannon - 100
Pulse ordnance multi-driver - 125
Pulse rifle - 1
Plasma rifle - 10
Plasma rifle (BS 2+) - 15
Quad ion turret - 30
Rail rifle - 10
Railgun - 30
Seeker missile - 6
Swiftstrike railgun - 100
Tri-axis ion cannon - 100

Update FW Tau wargear prices to be the same as Codex Tau wargear prices.


I think Commanders need to be brought down a peg relative to the rest of the codex, IMO they are a bigger problem than Riptides. The pts list I posted nerfs Tau pretty aggressively and wouldn't be fair outside of nerfing the competitive units of every faction (including GK).

In terms of rules changes there is this thread: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/776740.page#10481458

My suggestions from the thread:
Spoiler:
Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I was excited to come into this thread, and then was disappointed when I read it. Tau sept is best yes, but there is no need to nerf it. If you want your sept to be played because you like it, then play it. If it isn’t as good or you can’t take something because it belongs to tau sept.. then I’m sorry


There was another reason other than it being the best, it's also the least fun to play against because you get punished really heavily for playing a melee army against that Sept. Making the Chapter Tactic an effect of some kind similar to focus fire and having a Stratagem that hurts units that charge could make the Sept overall more fun to play against, they might still have a Stratagem that punishes units that charge, but at least they are paying CP every time they hurt you for charging, rather than just being little automatic turrets that completely obliterate anything that declares a charge. Providing a free Markerlight the first time you cause an unsaved wound each Shooting phase could be a Chapter Tactic for Tau Sept and their Stratagem could be Overwatch on 5+ or Supporting Fire on 5+ for one unit for 1 CP.

Another option for Tau Sept would be to change their ability from 5+ Overwatch and FtGG to 12" FtGG. That would still keep the same theme of them being able to support and protect each other, would help make it less of a castle list and would probably produce less damage.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 10:56:16


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Commanders should be nerfed via point increases in its wargear. Afterall, weapons and wargear are far more valuable on a BS2 platform. Seems like unit based inflation is only a thing for SM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/30 13:22:36


 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws



Sioux Falls, SD

 skchsan wrote:
Vespids are one of the best units in Tau codex...

14" M, BS4+, with 18" Assault 2 S5 AP-2 with deepstrike at 14 points.

Noone takes them because of their looks, and due to how mandatory riptides + drones are, not because they're bad/overcosted.


They are also finecast and don’t benefit from sept bonuses.

Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius!  
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






TheAvengingKnee wrote:
 skchsan wrote:
Vespids are one of the best units in Tau codex...

14" M, BS4+, with 18" Assault 2 S5 AP-2 with deepstrike at 14 points.

Noone takes them because of their looks, and due to how mandatory riptides + drones are, not because they're bad/overcosted.


They are also finecast and don’t benefit from sept bonuses.
Except that sept tenets, even if they benefited from it, doesn't offer much to vespids anyways except for T'au sept.

Borkan - no effect as they can only equip assault weapons.
FSE - S5 wounds on 3+ on most, 5+ at worst (barring obvious exceptions). benefit gained from reroll 1 to wound is abysmal. Plus, you shouldn't be within 6" of enemy units with Vespids anyways.
Dalyth - Vespids should always be moving.
Viorla - no need to advance with M 14"
Sacea - not a game changing benefit for vespids
   
 
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