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The following part of the Phoenix Rising book caught my attention:

Chosen by fate, [Yvraine] was in spirit the closest living thing to the ancient Aeldari who had existed before Slaanesh erupted into being.

Do you see how that is worrisome?

The ancient Aeldari were so prideful, cruel and self-indulgent that they birthed a soul-devouring Chaos god. And Yvraine is said to be the closest thing to them, in spirit. What do we make of that? Are the Ynnari wise to put the salvation and redemption of the Aeldari race in Yvraine's hands, or are they just doomed to repeat the mistakes that led to the Fall? It would certainly be in character for them to extol and idealize their past ("Yvraine is like our mighty ancestors!") while forgetting its lessons. Much like real-life nationalists who long for the "good old days" when their respective country was a mighty empire, but conveniently ignore the horrors on which empires are built.

Now, I will admit that I have not read a whole lot of lore, so perhaps I am missing some nuances about the whole "Yvraine as paragon of the ancient Aeldari" thing. Or perhaps this is one of those internal inconsistencies. Perhaps Yvraine does demonstrate heroic qualities in other sources of fluff, and perhaps she actually represents only the best of the ancient Aeldari, not the mixed bag that they very much were. Still, Yvraine's time in Commorragh (where she rose high among the wych cults) merits attention. I highly doubt that one can survive long in Commorragh, let alone thrive in it, without becoming corrupted... or without having been at least somewhat corrupted to begin with.

.

I think they are referring to the eldar of the war in heaven, back when most all eldar were psychic speops warriors doing the Old One's dirty work against the necrons. It makes sense for Yvranie since she has travel deep into most every major eldar path, including the unofficial ones (corsair, wych, etc.), without going full exarch.

I don't think it's a "good old days" thing as much as it is a "hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times" thing. The eldar had their strong men during the war in heaven, good times when they rose to rule the galaxy, weak men when they were creating slannesh, hard times after the fall, and are now back to the strong men step. Smacks of Nurgle worship to me, next eldar fall confirmed.

N.B. The DE don't worship slannesh, they hate her/him/it/etc. almost much as the craftworlders. Their souls are constantly being drained by slannesh, so they engage in hedonistic acts to either refill their soul. There are a lot of theories about which I won't get into.

 Eipi10 wrote:
I think they are referring to the eldar of the war in heaven, back when most all eldar were psychic speops warriors doing the Old One's dirty work against the necrons. It makes sense for Yvranie since she has travel deep into most every major eldar path, including the unofficial ones (corsair, wych, etc.), without going full exarch.

I don't think it's a "good old days" thing as much as it is a "hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, weak men create hard times" thing. The eldar had their strong men during the war in heaven, good times when they rose to rule the galaxy, weak men when they were creating slannesh, hard times after the fall, and are now back to the strong men step. Smacks of Nurgle worship to me, next eldar fall confirmed.

N.B. The DE don't worship slannesh, they hate her/him/it/etc. almost much as the craftworlders. Their souls are constantly being drained by slannesh, so they engage in hedonistic acts to either refill their soul. There are a lot of theories about which I won't get into.

yeah dark eldar engage in almost ritualized torture and other such acts in an attempt to dissuade an evil deity from enacting punishment. that's not a common form of worship at all nooope!

My take is that this is a deliberate choice in writing Yvraine. Remember that some moderate Eldar are horrified of the Yncarne, noting how it resembles Slaanesh in its own way. I don't expect this to be resolved (at least in the short term). Bt I do believe it is intended to highlight that the Yannari are deliberately choosing to fight fire with fire and that this scares a lot of other Eldar. This is important as the existing Eldar factions will continue to exist into the future. The whole race will not be embracing Ynnead any time soon.

I dont know a lot about her but its true that she and Ultras primarch have some kind of friendship or something?

sajmonikpl1 wrote:
I dont know a lot about her but its true that she and Ultras primarch have some kind of friendship or something?

It's one of the meme things. Like how BA and crons are best friends.

It's not entirely a meme. Yvraine has a relatively amicable relationship with Guilliman, to the point where even the Visarch questions why she seems so friendly and why they spent time helping him out instead of looking for the last Cronesword. This was from the Hand of Darkness audio drama. In it, they successfully infiltrate Nurgle's Garden, using it as a shortcut to Mortarion's planet, and the place where the Hand of Darkness artifact was kept. The artifact had been used to allow Abaddon to activate the Blackstone Fortresses in the Gothic War. The description of the Hand in the drama suggests its current powers of destruction and decay are a corruption from whatever original purpose it had.

Anyway, they successfully manage to grab the Hand and extract themselves. Then the White Seers from the Black Library show up. The White Seers are a group, first mentioned in Gav Thorpe's Path of the Eldar books, that resides in the Black Library and take charge of corrupted artifacts either to seal them away or destroy them. They say not even the Hand can withstand their soul furnaces forever, but Yvraine refuses to turn it over, as she has promised it to Guilliman. I don't think the Hand has been mentioned since in any other sources.

Wasn't Yvraine's connection to Ynnead also part of what animated/ brought Guilliman back?

OP: I imagine, not all pre-fall eldar were hedonists when Slaanesh was born- just enough of the population to reach critical mass. When the fluff speaks of her being like prefall eldar, it is referring to her disregard for the ritualized path system that rose up after the fall.

However, I agree with Karhedron that this blurred line is an intentional choice, designed to allow Eldar players to justify which side of the coming Eldar civil war they want to play.

Karhedron wrote:My take is that this is a deliberate choice in writing Yvraine. Remember that some moderate Eldar are horrified of the Yncarne, noting how it resembles Slaanesh in its own way. I don't expect this to be resolved (at least in the short term). Bt I do believe it is intended to highlight that the Yannari are deliberately choosing to fight fire with fire and that this scares a lot of other Eldar. This is important as the existing Eldar factions will continue to exist into the future. The whole race will not be embracing Ynnead any time soon.

Ynnead resembles slannesh because they are both eldar gods, and because Ynnead might have been corrupted by slannesh since the infinity circuit sacrificed to form the god had deamonettes munching on the soul stones. I haven't read the book where it happens, so I don't really know how true it is.

sajmonikpl1 wrote:I dont know a lot about her but its true that she and Ultras primarch have some kind of friendship or something?

Iracundus wrote:It's not entirely a meme. Yvraine has a relatively amicable relationship with Guilliman, to the point where even the Visarch questions why she seems so friendly and why they spent time helping him out instead of looking for the last Cronesword.

Even if Yvraine is friendly with G-man, he is not friendly with her. From Plauge War:

'I cannot be their pawn, just as I cannot become the weapon of the Imperial Cult. She told me what she did because she wants me alive.’‘You took it off anyway,’ Sulymanya said. She thought a moment. ‘You took it off to defy them?’‘I never have only one reason for doing anything,’ he said to her. ‘Defying Yvraine was part of it. I do not like to be told what is and is not possible. But the driving reason was that I cannot be in thrall to the aeldari.'

BrianDavion wrote:yeah dark eldar engage in almost ritualized torture and other such acts in an attempt to dissuade an evil deity from enacting punishment. that's not a common form of worship at all nooope!

It's more like a bargain, negotiating with terrorists does not mean you support said terrorists. Slannesh takes part of the DE's soul, as is her right; and the DE replace that part with another creature's soul with the same method slannesh used to get the soul from the DE in the first place. It's never been well explained, however.

Ynnead isn't corrupted. One of the reasons Shalaxi Hexbane the Super Awesome and Unbeatable is sent to kill YVraine is because souls going to Ynnead are denied to Slaanesh and the infinity circuit is used as an example of that. What should have been a super fun feast was nothing.

What did Guilliman take off?

pm713 wrote:
What did Guilliman take off?

His armour I think. When he was first resurrected, he was told to keep the armour on as there was still traces of the Slaaneshi poison in his system. However he has since been shown without it on several occasions. It is hinted somewhere that the suit is not all Imperial tech and there is an Eldar Mcguffin in it somewhere.

Ynnead's corruption is just a theory. Knowing GW, nothing will come of it, the same way nothing will come of supposed conflict between normal marines and primaris marines.

Yeah, Yvraine told him to never take off his armor, lest he die, but he took it off anyway (not without trouble) for the reasons in the quote. It's a pretty good scene, I think the book is underrated. But suit is beyond his ability to understand. Cawl made the armor, but the eldar gave it its mystical, life-sustaining properties through psychic tech. Of course, the eldar don't distinguish between the two.

 Eipi10 wrote:
Ynnead's corruption is just a theory. Knowing GW, nothing will come of it, the same way nothing will come of supposed conflict between normal marines and primaris marines.

if her corruption is on the same level of the primaris/normal marine conflict that means GW never even mentioned it and it's just a childish fantasy with no support in published material

The Custodes almost exterminated the Hammers of Dorn chapter for their reluctance to accept primaris marines.

 Eipi10 wrote:
The Custodes almost exterminated the Hammers of Dorn chapter for their reluctance to accept primaris marines.

err no they didn't. they simply made it abdundantly clear that refusing Primaris Marines was refusing a gift from the em,peror, and only traitors would do that.

they threatened them yes but I'd hardly say that counts as almost exterminating them

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
The Custodes almost exterminated the Hammers of Dorn chapter for their reluctance to accept primaris marines.

err no they didn't. they simply made it abdundantly clear that refusing Primaris Marines was refusing a gift from the em,peror, and only traitors would do that.

they threatened them yes but I'd hardly say that counts as almost exterminating them

People say Space Wolves get away with everything...

-Guardsman- wrote:
The following part of the Phoenix Rising book caught my attention:

Chosen by fate, [Yvraine] was in spirit the closest living thing to the ancient Aeldari who had existed before Slaanesh erupted into being.

Do you see how that is worrisome?

The ancient Aeldari were so prideful, cruel and self-indulgent that they birthed a soul-devouring Chaos god. And Yvraine is said to be the closest thing to them, in spirit. What do we make of that? Are the Ynnari wise to put the salvation and redemption of the Aeldari race in Yvraine's hands, or are they just doomed to repeat the mistakes that led to the Fall? It would certainly be in character for them to extol and idealize their past ("Yvraine is like our mighty ancestors!") while forgetting its lessons. Much like real-life nationalists who long for the "good old days" when their respective country was a mighty empire, but conveniently ignore the horrors on which empires are built.

Now, I will admit that I have not read a whole lot of lore, so perhaps I am missing some nuances about the whole "Yvraine as paragon of the ancient Aeldari" thing. Or perhaps this is one of those internal inconsistencies. Perhaps Yvraine does demonstrate heroic qualities in other sources of fluff, and perhaps she actually represents only the best of the ancient Aeldari, not the mixed bag that they very much were. Still, Yvraine's time in Commorragh (where she rose high among the wych cults) merits attention. I highly doubt that one can survive long in Commorragh, let alone thrive in it, without becoming corrupted... or without having been at least somewhat corrupted to begin with.

.

She stopped being a pirate to go to Comorrogh and join a Wych cult. She's always been very much a mixed bag.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
The Custodes almost exterminated the Hammers of Dorn chapter for their reluctance to accept primaris marines.

err no they didn't. they simply made it abdundantly clear that refusing Primaris Marines was refusing a gift from the em,peror, and only traitors would do that.
they threatened them yes but I'd hardly say that counts as almost exterminating them

Do you think it was an empty threat?

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:
The Custodes almost exterminated the Hammers of Dorn chapter for their reluctance to accept primaris marines.

err no they didn't. they simply made it abdundantly clear that refusing Primaris Marines was refusing a gift from the em,peror, and only traitors would do that.
they threatened them yes but I'd hardly say that counts as almost exterminating them

Do you think it was an empty threat?

No I just don't think issuing a threat along those lines amounts to "ALMOST WIPING A CHAPTER OUT"

If the Fists of Dorn had said "no" one more time, the custodes would have started killing them until they said "yes." If they never said "yes" the custodes would have had no qualms about wiping them to the man.

 Eipi10 wrote:
If the Fists of Dorn had said "no" one more time, the custodes would have started killing them until they said "yes." If they never said "yes" the custodes would have had no qualms about wiping them to the man.

Just like how I almost annihilated some kids crossing the road with my car, but I had stopped, and I chose not to do that.

More like the kid was the one who stopped. The custodes wound not have let the chapter get away with "crossing the road," not accept primaris.

 Eipi10 wrote:
More like the kid was the one who stopped. The custodes wound not have let the chapter get away with "crossing the road," not accept primaris.

except we have no examples of chapters rejecting Primaris and getting destroyed by the Custodes so we can't be too sure of that. It's certainly likely the Custodes would lose no sleep over it, but it's certainly possiable that they'd not destroy the chapter. and instead use other sanctions first in an attempt to force them in line

She's Guilliman's girlfriend, isn't she?

Can't be all bad

BrianDavion wrote:
except we have no examples of chapters rejecting Primaris and getting destroyed by the Custodes so we can't be too sure of that. It's certainly likely the Custodes would lose no sleep over it, but it's certainly possiable that they'd not destroy the chapter. and instead use other sanctions first in an attempt to force them in line

They straight up called them traitors of the same caliber as the legions. There is only one punishment the imperium has for such as them, death. They clearly would have purged the chapter.

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except we have no examples of chapters rejecting Primaris and getting destroyed by the Custodes so we can't be too sure of that. It's certainly likely the Custodes would lose no sleep over it, but it's certainly possiable that they'd not destroy the chapter. and instead use other sanctions first in an attempt to force them in line

They straight up called them traitors of the same caliber as the legions. There is only one punishment the imperium has for such as them, death. They clearly would have purged the chapter.

yes if they'd continued to rject them they proably would have been censored. best case scenerio their leadership would have been wiped out and the rest of the chapter sent on a pentiant crusade. but what I take issue with is "oihh trhe custodes almost wiped them out" that kind of language implies they fought and nearly where wiped out. "the custodes would have killed them all if they didn't take them" would be clearer. sorry to come off a dick on this man but given how much misinformation is being thrown out about primaris, I want to make sure we minimize the hyperbole.

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except we have no examples of chapters rejecting Primaris and getting destroyed by the Custodes so we can't be too sure of that. It's certainly likely the Custodes would lose no sleep over it, but it's certainly possiable that they'd not destroy the chapter. and instead use other sanctions first in an attempt to force them in line

They straight up called them traitors of the same caliber as the legions. There is only one punishment the imperium has for such as them, death. They clearly would have purged the chapter.

That is the definition of ridiculous.

 Eipi10 wrote:

Karhedron wrote:My take is that this is a deliberate choice in writing Yvraine. Remember that some moderate Eldar are horrified of the Yncarne, noting how it resembles Slaanesh in its own way. I don't expect this to be resolved (at least in the short term). Bt I do believe it is intended to highlight that the Yannari are deliberately choosing to fight fire with fire and that this scares a lot of other Eldar. This is important as the existing Eldar factions will continue to exist into the future. The whole race will not be embracing Ynnead any time soon.

Ynnead resembles slannesh because they are both eldar gods, and because Ynnead might have been corrupted by slannesh since the infinity circuit sacrificed to form the god had deamonettes munching on the soul stones. I haven't read the book where it happens, so I don't really know how true it is.

sajmonikpl1 wrote:I dont know a lot about her but its true that she and Ultras primarch have some kind of friendship or something?

Iracundus wrote:It's not entirely a meme. Yvraine has a relatively amicable relationship with Guilliman, to the point where even the Visarch questions why she seems so friendly and why they spent time helping him out instead of looking for the last Cronesword.

Even if Yvraine is friendly with G-man, he is not friendly with her. From Plauge War:

'I cannot be their pawn, just as I cannot become the weapon of the Imperial Cult. She told me what she did because she wants me alive.’‘You took it off anyway,’ Sulymanya said. She thought a moment. ‘You took it off to defy them?’‘I never have only one reason for doing anything,’ he said to her. ‘Defying Yvraine was part of it. I do not like to be told what is and is not possible. But the driving reason was that I cannot be in thrall to the aeldari.'

BrianDavion wrote:yeah dark eldar engage in almost ritualized torture and other such acts in an attempt to dissuade an evil deity from enacting punishment. that's not a common form of worship at all nooope!

It's more like a bargain, negotiating with terrorists does not mean you support said terrorists. Slannesh takes part of the DE's soul, as is her right; and the DE replace that part with another creature's soul with the same method slannesh used to get the soul from the DE in the first place. It's never been well explained, however.

Guilliman also went to an ancient Eldar temple without his guards to speak to Eldrad, so it's not like he's avoiding cooperating with them - he just didn't want to have to be at their beck and call or be forced to rely on them to even live.

pm713 wrote:

 Eipi10 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except we have no examples of chapters rejecting Primaris and getting destroyed by the Custodes so we can't be too sure of that. It's certainly likely the Custodes would lose no sleep over it, but it's certainly possiable that they'd not destroy the chapter. and instead use other sanctions first in an attempt to force them in line

They straight up called them traitors of the same caliber as the legions. There is only one punishment the imperium has for such as them, death. They clearly would have purged the chapter.

That is the definition of ridiculous.

it is because Eipi is misrepresenting it. the exact word is found in codex custodes. basicly they explain that Primaris Marines where made by the martain preisthood, at the behalfst of the emperor, and represent the Emperor's will. to reject Primaris Marines would be to reject a gift directly from the Emperor (which in a monarchy is an insult to the monarch) and as such the insult could "lead them to be confused for the traitors they professed to hate"

basicly the custodes where saying "... you claim to be loyalist, and hold the emperor in high esteem? then why do you reject a gift from him, delivered by his son and his closest bodyguards" and they're honestly absolutely right. between the custodes and gulliman it's pretty hard to argue that you know the emperor's will better

Exactly, that's the point I am making. The Hands of Dorn are insulting the Emperor, the Custodes do not take kindly to such insults. They did not literally condemn them to death, but the threat was there. I suppose you could disagree if you think the Custodes did not talk in loaded phrases; they are very literal.