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The debate in news and rumours needs taking somewhere, as such here we are!

The complaints of "lost too much and gained too little" how about we take away everything from the codex, put their trait in the chaos space marine book, include morty and typhus, give them 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 strat and call it done. Boom you have status quo back.

See, I've been working on a homebrew Marine codex that goes with the following:
1. Consolidated unit entries and reworks of units
2. Rebalancing of Chapter Tactics and successor traits as necessary
3. 4 unique units per Chapter and their successors, not including Special Characters of course
4. Total of 4 "Special" Relics for those Chapters outside the generic ones l, and their successors. One Melee weapon, one Range, one Armor/Jump/Bike, and lastly one Buffer of some type.

It would be easy to do the same with the Legions (I already have some ideas brewing), though Death Guard will be the hardest to translate as we lost paid Marks and then getting FNP on everything. While the latter part might NOT be necessary, I am looking for a way to do it

If the relic is the plate, the warlord trait is arch contaminator and the stratagem is cloud of flies, it would vastly improve the army.

Obviously the trait would have to give DR to all units since they don't have any unique units anymore.

I just want the Vindicator and Obliterarors back. T5 and FNP on the Lord and Sorcerer would be nice too.

Dudeface wrote:
The debate in news and rumours needs taking somewhere, as such here we are!

The complaints of "lost too much and gained too little" how about we take away everything from the codex, put their trait in the chaos space marine book, include morty and typhus, give them 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 strat and call it done. Boom you have status quo back.

How about we get a codex in line with Thousand Sons, where they provide us with our handful of unique units and characters, and only deprive us of units which it makes sense to lose?

And where we aren't restricted to the smallest, most anemic list of stratagems in the game.

 Jidmah wrote:
If the relic is the plate, the warlord trait is arch contaminator and the stratagem is cloud of flies, it would vastly improve the army.

Obviously the trait would have to give DR to all units since they don't have any unique units anymore.

One thing that could be done is the current trait and a FNP 6+++ (with a rerolls to 1 for units with an equivalent in place).

 MinMax wrote:
I just want the Vindicator and Obliterarors back. T5 and FNP on the Lord and Sorcerer would be nice too.

Dudeface wrote:
The debate in news and rumours needs taking somewhere, as such here we are!

The complaints of "lost too much and gained too little" how about we take away everything from the codex, put their trait in the chaos space marine book, include morty and typhus, give them 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 strat and call it done. Boom you have status quo back.

How about we get a codex in line with Thousand Sons, where they provide us with our handful of unique units and characters, and only deprive us of units which it makes sense to lose?

And where we aren't restricted to the smallest, most anemic list of stratagems in the game.

Bikes, jump units, mutilators, obliterators and warp talons aren't death guard units though. They come from other legions in the fluff. Havocs are if they are special weapons only by virtue of prior kits.

They should have kept all rhino chassis vehicles, forgefiend etc is debatable.

 MinMax wrote:
I just want the Vindicator and Obliterarors back. T5 and FNP on the Lord and Sorcerer would be nice too.

Dudeface wrote:
The debate in news and rumours needs taking somewhere, as such here we are!

The complaints of "lost too much and gained too little" how about we take away everything from the codex, put their trait in the chaos space marine book, include morty and typhus, give them 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 strat and call it done. Boom you have status quo back.

How about we get a codex in line with Thousand Sons, where they provide us with our handful of unique units and characters, and only deprive us of units which it makes sense to lose?

And where we aren't restricted to the smallest, most anemic list of stratagems in the game.

The deathguard codex is better than the thousand sons one.... Thousans sons have 2 really strong units and the rest are a big meh. The only reason people think 1ksons are good is because ahriman and DPs make their way into chaos soup

I'm not sure how they could really capture the feel of the Death Guard. 30k death guard is like massed infantry that implacably walk across the field, with bombardments. I do miss not having the Death Guard Havocs, but the daemon engines I think are meh anywyas.

I would have rather had the Crawler be an actual tank, not a daemon engine, or something to make that "relentless bombardment" thing work. Instead the Death Guard design is very small and not at all designed well.

Crawlers are our Vindicators now, I even use the same model, simply magnetized the Crawler weapons on the sides.
Bikes, Havocs, Rapiers and Raptors never were DG units, really, you just took them because you couldn't do without them in the aweful CSM Codex of 6th/7th Edition. Simply take them as The Purged now and you're good. With 3 specials in a PM squad we nearly have our old DG Havocs back already.
Obliterators are more difficult since even the DG Codex tells a story of how Morty uses them. Would be nice to get them back, since DG lack firepower and there are some great models from hitech, Spellcrow and Wargames Exklusive for Nurgle Obliterators (and I got all of them ). However, it's easy to soup them in still. I'd like to trade Predators for Obliterators, DG never was into tanks aside from Vindicators.

More important than all of these would be giving Possessed, Lord and sorcerer a proper DG Profile. And give us Greater Possessed and the Master of Possession. And put at least one of the many characters in the HQ Slot, Elite is crouded and I need something cheaper as HQ. Maybe the Tallyman, he's an auto-include anyway and I'd like him even more as HQ (just like the Apostle).

To me it is inconceivable that DG would lose codex status. They are more likely to get new rules in a campaign book and then a new codex one day than ever get rolled back into CSM.

GW would be silly to create that kind of revenue loss.

 Nithaniel wrote:
To me it is inconceivable that DG would lose codex status. They are more likely to get new rules in a campaign book and then a new codex one day than ever get rolled back into CSM.

GW would be silly to create that kind of revenue loss.

That and given its age the DG codex has held up pretty well, while they aren’t winning every tournaments they held up significantly better than almost any codex from that time, I usually still saw a lot of people playing them at our local GW(before it got hit by a tornado this summer), so it has been a few months since I have seen what those players are fielding.

Hoping they keep them as their own codex, worked pretty well for them this time.

 MinMax wrote:
I just want the Vindicator and Obliterarors back. T5 and FNP on the Lord and Sorcerer would be nice too.

Dudeface wrote:
The debate in news and rumours needs taking somewhere, as such here we are!

The complaints of "lost too much and gained too little" how about we take away everything from the codex, put their trait in the chaos space marine book, include morty and typhus, give them 1 warlord trait, 1 relic and 1 strat and call it done. Boom you have status quo back.

How about we get a codex in line with Thousand Sons, where they provide us with our handful of unique units and characters, and only deprive us of units which it makes sense to lose?

And where we aren't restricted to the smallest, most anemic list of stratagems in the game.

Deathguard have less then 3, I did not know that. But no one plays mono DG here, only nurgle demons with chaos soup.

 Nithaniel wrote:
To me it is inconceivable that DG would lose codex status. They are more likely to get new rules in a campaign book and then a new codex one day than ever get rolled back into CSM.

GW would be silly to create that kind of revenue loss.

I doubt that they will be rolled back. This is a continuation of a discussion in one of the news thread, where I expressed my disappointment about DG not being included with the book that's supposed to focus on chaos legions, plus a jab at Mortarion and Mephiston both carrying the "Lord of Death" title.
In then turned into a poo-fling with a dozen of people piling on me about how much worse their army had it, who then turned sour when I provided facts showing the opposite. In general, the opinion was that DG has gotten enough already and should continue to not get anything for some time.

Fact collection, ignoring stuff that never made it past the index:
- DG have the least number of stratagems (6 unique 8 generic/CSM) available of all factions besides Assassins.
- DG are tied with some other armies for the least amount of relics(6) and warlord traits(6).
- DG have gotten a major model release with the codex two years ago, no faction besides loyalist marines have gotten more kits this edition, though some come close.
- For no good reason, neither DG nor TS got anything from the chaos releases in Vigilus Ablaze, Shadowspear or Blackstone Fortress, while SW, BA and DA were given full access.
- GK and Nids are the only other factions to get absolutely jack besides the codex release.
- DW got the executioner and primaris updates.
- Tau got a blackstone character and the eight

This thread tried to continue this worthless discussion by starting out with the a snarky "if it's so bad, how would you like getting rolled back into the codex?" to which the probably unexpected response was "that would be quite good".
This thread can now die.

The Death Guard are a full codex with a nice, well rounded range and quality FW support.

I think they need an update with some new starts and rules adjustments, however.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
To me it is inconceivable that DG would lose codex status. They are more likely to get new rules in a campaign book and then a new codex one day than ever get rolled back into CSM.

GW would be silly to create that kind of revenue loss.

I doubt that they will be rolled back. This is a continuation of a discussion in one of the news thread, where I expressed my disappointment about DG not being included with the book that's supposed to focus on chaos legions, plus a jab at Mortarion and Mephiston both carrying the "Lord of Death" title.
In then turned into a poo-fling with a dozen of people piling on me about how much worse their army had it, who then turned sour when I provided facts showing the opposite. In general, the opinion was that DG has gotten enough already and should continue to not get anything for some time.

Fact collection, ignoring stuff that never made it past the index:
- DG have the least number of stratagems (6 unique 8 generic/CSM) available of all factions besides Assassins.
- DG are tied with some other armies for the least amount of relics(6) and warlord traits(6).
- DG have gotten a major model release with the codex two years ago, no faction besides loyalist marines have gotten more kits this edition, though some come close.
- For no good reason, neither DG nor TS got anything from the chaos releases in Vigilus Ablaze, Shadowspear or Blackstone Fortress, while SW, BA and DA were given full access.
- GK and Nids are the only other factions to get absolutely jack besides the codex release.
- DW got the executioner and primaris updates.
- Tau got a blackstone character and the eight

This thread tried to continue this worthless discussion by starting out with the a snarky "if it's so bad, how would you like getting rolled back into the codex?" to which the probably unexpected response was "that would be quite good".
This thread can now die.

Well thank you for actually reading the thread and assuming the content of the posts.

The entire point of the thread was to move the argument away from n&r, as people wouldn't drop it.

There is a rumor that cult troops will get 2 wounds in some Chaos psychic awakening update, but no changes to legion rules (yes, again). 2 wound plague marines would be NASTY, but probably not enough to make them useful.

Wayniac wrote:
There is a rumor that cult troops will get 2 wounds in some Chaos psychic awakening update, but no changes to legion rules (yes, again). 2 wound plague marines would be NASTY, but probably not enough to make them useful.

Probably because they lost their base of 2 attacks at all times, can't take advantage of Plague Weapon on even their most basic Bolt weapon, stuff that used to or could potentially make them a TAC instead of some pathetic object that doesn't move until you decide to kill them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
There is a rumor that cult troops will get 2 wounds in some Chaos psychic awakening update, but no changes to legion rules (yes, again). 2 wound plague marines would be NASTY, but probably not enough to make them useful.

Probably because they lost their base of 2 attacks at all times, can't take advantage of Plague Weapon on even their most basic Bolt weapon, stuff that used to or could potentially make them a TAC instead of some pathetic object that doesn't move until you decide to kill them.

Tbh with no points increase and the extra attack on round 1 of combat it helps a lot, but they're not going to murder people. Base 2 attacks but no shock assault would have been better for them I feel?

Dudeface wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
There is a rumor that cult troops will get 2 wounds in some Chaos psychic awakening update, but no changes to legion rules (yes, again). 2 wound plague marines would be NASTY, but probably not enough to make them useful.

Probably because they lost their base of 2 attacks at all times, can't take advantage of Plague Weapon on even their most basic Bolt weapon, stuff that used to or could potentially make them a TAC instead of some pathetic object that doesn't move until you decide to kill them.

Tbh with no points increase and the extra attack on round 1 of combat it helps a lot, but they're not going to murder people. Base 2 attacks but no shock assault would have been better for them I feel?

They still need Shock Assault, but the issue is that they always had access to two attacks at minimum in a round, whether that was True Grit or Pistol + CCW. They lost that thing that made them at least mildly dangerous to Infantry in melee.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
There is a rumor that cult troops will get 2 wounds in some Chaos psychic awakening update, but no changes to legion rules (yes, again). 2 wound plague marines would be NASTY, but probably not enough to make them useful.

Probably because they lost their base of 2 attacks at all times, can't take advantage of Plague Weapon on even their most basic Bolt weapon, stuff that used to or could potentially make them a TAC instead of some pathetic object that doesn't move until you decide to kill them.

They got hateful blows though and the blight launcher is a really nice TAC weapon. At two wounds and 80 per unit (+gear), I could see them doing quite well.

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
There is a rumor that cult troops will get 2 wounds in some Chaos psychic awakening update, but no changes to legion rules (yes, again). 2 wound plague marines would be NASTY, but probably not enough to make them useful.

Probably because they lost their base of 2 attacks at all times, can't take advantage of Plague Weapon on even their most basic Bolt weapon, stuff that used to or could potentially make them a TAC instead of some pathetic object that doesn't move until you decide to kill them.

They got hateful blows though and the blight launcher is a really nice TAC weapon. At two wounds and 80 per unit (+gear), I could see them doing quite well.

And then you just charge them and they only hit you with their base A1 with dinky knives.

Can't make use of the Blight Launcher if you can't defend yourself after being charged. Lord knows Plague Marines are one of the last units that should benefit from fall back + shoot. I mean, look at them.

Wayniac wrote:
There is a rumor that cult troops will get 2 wounds in some Chaos psychic awakening update, but no changes to legion rules (yes, again). 2 wound plague marines would be NASTY, but probably not enough to make them useful.

They are a staple of my army whenever I play DG and they never failed me, unlike Plague Bearers which are merely cannon fodder and usually just a means to get characters into CC. I know the internet tells otherwize, but I feel Plague Marines are in a good spot.
As minimum squad with 2 blight launchers/1 plasma they're a nice unit to annoy the enemy and are pretty cheap for their durability.
If you want to equip them for CC they can become quite nasty, too with hateful assault and some psychic support now.

That being said, I wouldn't mind getting 2 wounds at all, of course, but it's not high on my list.
T5 and FNP for lords, sorcerer and possessed is a much more important aspect, for example...

Or cheaper melters and flamers, but that's not exlusive to DG.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
There is a rumor that cult troops will get 2 wounds in some Chaos psychic awakening update, but no changes to legion rules (yes, again). 2 wound plague marines would be NASTY, but probably not enough to make them useful.

Probably because they lost their base of 2 attacks at all times, can't take advantage of Plague Weapon on even their most basic Bolt weapon, stuff that used to or could potentially make them a TAC instead of some pathetic object that doesn't move until you decide to kill them.

They got hateful blows though and the blight launcher is a really nice TAC weapon. At two wounds and 80 per unit (+gear), I could see them doing quite well.

And then you just charge them and they only hit you with their base A1 with dinky knives.

? Hateful blows triggers when charging, charged or doing a heroic intervention. The only time they don't get their attacks is when tagging them as extra units.

Can't make use of the Blight Launcher if you can't defend yourself after being charged. Lord knows Plague Marines are one of the last units that should benefit from fall back + shoot. I mean, look at them.

It's 24", can be shot without downside after advancing and is good against pretty much any target. If you are worried about them getting locked in combat, you can buy them a pair of flails.

A TAC units is something that is never useless - a shooting unit doesn't need to be good at combat. What you are looking for is a unit that is good at everything, which should be costed accordingly.

 Ishagu wrote:
The Death Guard are a full codex with a nice, well rounded range and quality FW support.

I think they need an update with some new starts and rules adjustments, however.

that sums up my views more or less.

What, IMHO Death Guard need.

1: GW needs to simply give everything in the codex disgustingly resiliant, I get that they don't want to have death guard data sheets for X have something regular CSM stuf has, but if that's a cocnern simply tweek some names. rename the generic Lord to "Lord of Poxes" combine the sorcrer and Malginant plague caster into a single unit (this means just drop the sorcrer entry and rename the terminator sorcerer to "Malignant Plague Caster In terminator armor") rename the Hellbrute to the "Plague Brute" you can skip DR on rhinos, predators and land raiders. they're the only plain jane TANKS DG has so..

2: rework the chapter tactic. as with the bolter disipline rules it's not all that useful outside of edge cases. Maybe if you didn't wanna rework the datasheets simply make the chapter tactic "All units gain disgustingly resiliant, units that already have it add +1 to their rolls.

3: more and new stratigiums.

do that and I think DG'd be in a pretty good place.

Agree. Keep in mind that nurglified units usually also lose 1" of movement, to compensate for the added resilience.

For the chapter tactics, having all units gain the current chapter tatics and DR would push some of the never-use things back into usable territory, while having little to no impact on the things that are already doing well.
A defiler with DR that can move and shoot without spending 1CP/turn to do so would be a great asset and DR landraiders might be finally worth taking to cart a unit of plague marines or deathshrouds into combat.

I'd also like to get access to Greater Possessed, Master of Possession and Venom Crawlers, because all of them fit the DG fluff perfectly.
In addition, apparently Mortarion was directly involved in the creation of Obliterators and Mutilators, why doesn't DG have them?

I think the issue is that Death Guard suffers from early codex design, and GW has (as to be expected) moved forward with their "vision" and never updated them really. It's fairly clear that the DG codex was designed before GW had the idea to push most things into Stratagems, perhaps when stratagems were meant to be relatively few. That design has now changed.

The sad part is GW being GW it's unlikely they will ever update; GW seems reluctant unless you're marines to really go back and fix your book, and Chapter Approved/Big FAQs never do enough to fix anything since they are really just bandaids and often 6 months too late based on whatever the last tournament FOTM was when everyone has already moved on.

I don't like the Death Guard emphasis on daemon engines; while it does fit from a sense (you would expect cult troops to hvae a lot of daemonic influence) the fact daemon engines are generally not good doesn't help at all. I would *love* vehicles with DR and that would certainly fit the aesthetic (Nurgle vehicles are usually fleshy and "alive") but would probably be OP. I do agree the trait needs to be changed now that everyone has the bolter rule. DR should absolutely be a part of it however.

None of the vehicles are even considered even decent right now, why would a 5++ make them OP? Especially if you consider that those exact vehicles can get similar and better buffs in the loyalist codex and still see no play.

Ideally, just like marine armies, the supplement chapters would all get a basic supplement to the CSM main book. Won't happen, but it would make more sense. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves should also be simple supplement books to the basic Marine Codex, etc.