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Do I select Dreadblade models at list creation, along with armament and household choices, or before the game begins, along with warlord traits and psychic powers?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Do I select Dreadblade models at list creation, along with armament and household choices, or before the game begins, along with warlord traits and psychic powers?

In typical GW fashion it's unclear because GW are incompetent.

That being said, because you generate your Dreadblade's Pacts and Damnations "before the battle", I would assume they must have been nominated as a DREADBLADE before even that, which would suggest during list creation.

It's an artificial distiction - some tourneys structure processes this way some do not. I've certainly played events where psychic powers relics and warlord traits had to be on your list. I've also played events where warlord and relic were fixed but extra relic and psychic powers varied for each game. Read your tourney pack.

For non-tourney play the two stages are usually synonymous most players don't prepare a written list in a pickup game.

GW have not supplied a clear distiction about what happens in what order pregame so its mostly house ruled

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In typical GW fashion it's unclear because GW are incompetent.

That being said, because you generate your Dreadblade's Pacts and Damnations "before the battle", I would assume they must have been nominated as a DREADBLADE before even that, which would suggest during list creation.

Its not unclear.

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’.
When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment
step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are
used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In typical GW fashion it's unclear because GW are incompetent.

That being said, because you generate your Dreadblade's Pacts and Damnations "before the battle", I would assume they must have been nominated as a DREADBLADE before even that, which would suggest during list creation.

Its not unclear.

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’.
When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment
step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are
used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

I never said that was unclear? I said when you nominated the DREADBLADE is unclear, not the pacts and damnations.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In typical GW fashion it's unclear because GW are incompetent.

That being said, because you generate your Dreadblade's Pacts and Damnations "before the battle", I would assume they must have been nominated as a DREADBLADE before even that, which would suggest during list creation.

Its not unclear.

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’.
When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment
step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are
used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

I never said that was unclear? I said when you nominated the DREADBLADE is unclear, not the pacts and damnations.

Well, given that pacts and damnations are chosen before the battle, it isn't unclear that moniating the DREADBLADE has to also be before the battle.

 doctortom wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In typical GW fashion it's unclear because GW are incompetent.

That being said, because you generate your Dreadblade's Pacts and Damnations "before the battle", I would assume they must have been nominated as a DREADBLADE before even that, which would suggest during list creation.

Its not unclear.

Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’.
When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment
step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are
used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.

I never said that was unclear? I said when you nominated the DREADBLADE is unclear, not the pacts and damnations.

Well, given that pacts and damnations are chosen before the battle, it isn't unclear that moniating the DREADBLADE has to also be before the battle.

True, but "before the battle" is after constructing your list, which is where the uncertainty arises.

You construct your list before the battle, else you’re doing it wrong...

From a practical perspective, there are at least two stages that occur before a game begins.
Example: I have to first pay points for a unit before I can select it as my Warlord.
Example: I have to pay points for a Reaper chainsword on my model before I can take the chainsword relic.
Example: I have to select a household before I can unlock pre-game strats that are tied to those keywords.

So do people think that selecting a dreadblade would be more like the first part of those examples, or more like the second part?

For a dreadblade its the first it replaces forgeworld so needs to be specified the way a successor chaptor would specify hungry for battle. But at a practical level it makes no difference.

In a tournament its specified in a pack what order you do.

Outwith i both select my army and relics etc. before deployment. Which could be during list construction but could be after seeing my opponents list it doesn't really matter. List construction being before deployment. As long as I have let my opponent know before they deploy

U02dah4 wrote:
For a dreadblade its the first it replaces forgeworld

I was under the distinct impression that Dreadblades, unlike their loyalist counterparts, retained their Household keyword and associated benefits.

If that impression was in error, might you do me the favour of quoting&citing the rule so that I can show it to my opponent next time this comes up?

Maethbalnane wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
For a dreadblade its the first it replaces forgeworld

I was under the distinct impression that Dreadblades, unlike their loyalist counterparts, retained their Household keyword and associated benefits.

If that impression was in error, might you do me the favour of quoting&citing the rule so that I can show it to my opponent next time this comes up?

Sure. Buy the codex and READ IT. That will tell you exactly how to run a Dreadblade.

 Tamwulf wrote:

Maethbalnane wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
For a dreadblade its the first it replaces forgeworld

I was under the distinct impression that Dreadblades, unlike their loyalist counterparts, retained their Household keyword and associated benefits.

If that impression was in error, might you do me the favour of quoting&citing the rule so that I can show it to my opponent next time this comes up?

Sure. Buy the codex and READ IT. That will tell you exactly how to run a Dreadblade.

"The [entire] codex" is not a quote or a (meaningful) citation.


So why don't we try this another way. I don't think that rule exists. If you do think that rule exists, can you tell me on what page I would find it?

In the meantime, I have found several rules which would seem to strongly imply that this supposed rule does not, in fact, exist. Namely, the Blasphemous Engine and the Veil of Medrengard artefacts, which both specify availability to their respective Household while also specifying "other than a Dreadblade".

Or, hey, we've got this Warhammer Community article here that states under the heading "How Do They Work", and I quote:
" When you’re assembling your Chaos Knights army, you can opt to give any of your Chaos Knights the Dreadblade keyword. This doesn’t replace its Iconoclast or Infernal keyword, and if they’re part of a Detachment with other Knights with the same keyword, they’ll still benefit from Conquerors Without Mercy or Daemonic Surge in addition to their Dreadblade abilities! "
(emphasis mine)

But I should just either take random-person-on-the-internet's word as gospel or buy the book for an army I don't play, right? Those are my only options?

You pick the Dreadblade nomination at the same time as Household, which us usually list building.

I know for ITC, what I do is nominate Household: iconoclast, nominate Dreadblade on a Knight and on a Armiger for List build, and then pre battle decide who gets Pacts and Damnations, as well as additional relics, vows etc.