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So Captain Smash fether is a Captain with a jump pack Thunder Hammer and maybe a warlord trait and relic right? He is pretty awesome. Before the bonus attack all space marines got he had what 6 attacks and a fight twice? 3 times if he died.

So 5 Van vets get 16 attacks including the sargent. And a fightbtwice. Death guard (blood angles) get 21, 26 with the Sanguinter near by. Wolf guard can get 3 or 4 extra attacks each if you can overlap the bubbles properly. 1 for that rock, 2 different warlord traits, 1 for a named charcter.


Seems even better than a smash Captain but I haven't noticed any one using them or talking about it.



Am I missing something?

Character targeting rules protect a smash captain until he gets into combat.

My Vanguard Vets nearly always have to eat at least one turn of shooting (and don't always survive it) before they can get stuck in.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Character targeting rules protect a smash captain until he gets into combat.

My Vanguard Vets nearly always have to eat at least one turn of shooting (and don't always survive it) before they can get stuck in.

Ahh that makes sense. Still I would think a 5 man squad with 12 inches of movement would bevable to find places to hide. You've played them not me but I'm suprised.

Headlss wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Character targeting rules protect a smash captain until he gets into combat.

My Vanguard Vets nearly always have to eat at least one turn of shooting (and don't always survive it) before they can get stuck in.

Ahh that makes sense. Still I would think a 5 man squad with 12 inches of movement would bevable to find places to hide. You've played them not me but I'm suprised.

Relics come into play too. Even the super simple Master Crafted weapon will be better for a Captain than trying to throw it on a Sergeant really.

That being said, my RG are running 8 VVs right now, 4 hammers, 2 claws, 2 SS/CS. Deepstrike with Shrike and near Chaplain with +2 to charge.Can only get 1 character plus change for equal points cost.

Headlss wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Character targeting rules protect a smash captain until he gets into combat.

My Vanguard Vets nearly always have to eat at least one turn of shooting (and don't always survive it) before they can get stuck in.

Ahh that makes sense. Still I would think a 5 man squad with 12 inches of movement would bevable to find places to hide. You've played them not me but I'm suprised.

Thunderfire cannons are in pretty much every space marine army in my meta, so cover doesn't help and outranging them is impractical. The Tremor Shells don't affect Vanguard Vets, but two volleys of TFC in devastator doctrine will kill 2-4 of them about 70% of the time. If they all have storm shields, that drops to about 1-2 models, but it's not unusual to see 3 TFC, which is enough to cripple a unit of 8 to the point where they can't do anything useful anymore.

You can drop them from orbit, but RG are not Blood Angels, and trying to charge 9" off a drop has a lot of fail points:
-In my local meta, more armies have Phobos Infiltrators than not. You can't even declare a charge outside 12", and Infiltrators are surprisingly hard to shift.
-You have to start the chaplain on the board, have to pull off the 3+ roll in the right turn, and have to get him to the right spot to get the +2" (this will get a little easier with the master of sanctity reroll)
-Even with Shrike's reroll, that's a 43% fail on the charge. If you fail, your VV unit is dead. (A character who fails a charge can still hide behind a chaff unit for a turn.)
-Forget about charging a repulsor/impulsor from deepstrike

Overall I've found that it's better for RG to start the Jump Pack Assault guys on the table and use movement to get them into range. That way you don't depend on coming up with the magical 9 at the key moment or else losing your 200-point unit. They survive a little better if you also are sending assault centurions and 2-3 characters (smash captains and a chaplain) and maybe some scouts and whatever else you have all at the same time.

In the case of Blood Angel Smash Captains, they have a couple of other things in their favour over Van Vets. Firstly, the Red Rampage stratagem gives them an extra D3 attacks. Secondly the Relic Jump Pack negates overwatch which is potentially huge against some targets.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Headlss wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Character targeting rules protect a smash captain until he gets into combat.

My Vanguard Vets nearly always have to eat at least one turn of shooting (and don't always survive it) before they can get stuck in.

Ahh that makes sense. Still I would think a 5 man squad with 12 inches of movement would bevable to find places to hide. You've played them not me but I'm suprised.

Thunderfire cannons are in pretty much every space marine army in my meta, so cover doesn't help and outranging them is impractical. The Tremor Shells don't affect Vanguard Vets, but two volleys of TFC in devastator doctrine will kill 2-4 of them about 70% of the time. If they all have storm shields, that drops to about 1-2 models, but it's not unusual to see 3 TFC, which is enough to cripple a unit of 8 to the point where they can't do anything useful anymore.

You can drop them from orbit, but RG are not Blood Angels, and trying to charge 9" off a drop has a lot of fail points:
-In my local meta, more armies have Phobos Infiltrators than not. You can't even declare a charge outside 12", and Infiltrators are surprisingly hard to shift.
-You have to start the chaplain on the board, have to pull off the 3+ roll in the right turn, and have to get him to the right spot to get the +2" (this will get a little easier with the master of sanctity reroll)
-Even with Shrike's reroll, that's a 43% fail on the charge. If you fail, your VV unit is dead. (A character who fails a charge can still hide behind a chaff unit for a turn.)


-Forget about charging a repulsor/impulsor from deepstrike

Overall I've found that it's better for RG to start the Jump Pack Assault guys on the table and use movement to get them into range. That way you don't depend on coming up with the magical 9 at the key moment or else losing your 200-point unit. They survive a little better if you also are sending assault centurions and 2-3 characters (smash captains and a chaplain) and maybe some scouts and whatever else you have all at the same time.

If you have a JP Chaplain moved up the table with +2" to charge, it makes the charge from deepstrike a 7, with rerolls.

I might be lucky in terrain. I have never had a table where I could hide a whole army, but I have never had any trouble hidind a 5 man squad.

Vets with jump packs should be able to find cover enough to get into threat range. And if they hit you with 3 Thunder fire cannons, well thats a bad match up but you did bring more army right? Artillery shooting at your storm troopers aren't shooting at your heavy weapons.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Headlss wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
Character targeting rules protect a smash captain until he gets into combat.

My Vanguard Vets nearly always have to eat at least one turn of shooting (and don't always survive it) before they can get stuck in.

Ahh that makes sense. Still I would think a 5 man squad with 12 inches of movement would bevable to find places to hide. You've played them not me but I'm suprised.

Thunderfire cannons are in pretty much every space marine army in my meta, so cover doesn't help and outranging them is impractical. The Tremor Shells don't affect Vanguard Vets, but two volleys of TFC in devastator doctrine will kill 2-4 of them about 70% of the time. If they all have storm shields, that drops to about 1-2 models, but it's not unusual to see 3 TFC, which is enough to cripple a unit of 8 to the point where they can't do anything useful anymore.

You can drop them from orbit, but RG are not Blood Angels, and trying to charge 9" off a drop has a lot of fail points:
-In my local meta, more armies have Phobos Infiltrators than not. You can't even declare a charge outside 12", and Infiltrators are surprisingly hard to shift.
-You have to start the chaplain on the board, have to pull off the 3+ roll in the right turn, and have to get him to the right spot to get the +2" (this will get a little easier with the master of sanctity reroll)
-Even with Shrike's reroll, that's a 43% fail on the charge. If you fail, your VV unit is dead. (A character who fails a charge can still hide behind a chaff unit for a turn.)


-Forget about charging a repulsor/impulsor from deepstrike

Overall I've found that it's better for RG to start the Jump Pack Assault guys on the table and use movement to get them into range. That way you don't depend on coming up with the magical 9 at the key moment or else losing your 200-point unit. They survive a little better if you also are sending assault centurions and 2-3 characters (smash captains and a chaplain) and maybe some scouts and whatever else you have all at the same time.

If you have a JP Chaplain moved up the table with +2" to charge, it makes the charge from deepstrike a 7, with rerolls.

Right, that's my point. There's a 33% fail on the litany, and about a 17% fail on the rerolled 7 on top of that, and you have to have everybody in the right spot at the right time. For me, that's too random. I'd rather just move up the table.

Since you can't deep strike t1 and you can move 24 inches easy in 2 turns with jet packs I ususally deploy on the board.

I do with dark elfs (in spaaace) any way but its the same idea with jump troops.