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As per the title, maining Black Legion, I was very disappointing to see we lost the ability to have chosen troops, let alone terminators.
Has GW ever commented on this? Seems to me it's yet another one of those moments of GW just being GW.
Especially now, their rules compared to the other faith and fury legions are somewhat subpar.
Having Troop chosen would free up quite some points and would also help with CP and would mesh really well with world killers and abadons reroll aura/bringers of despair detachment (assuming they also got terminators).
I'm finding the panthoen stratagem for example to be quite awkward to fully use. You need a lot of moving parts to get make it worth it over simply choosing the mark. That too would be made a little easier if you could save on troops.

It would turn them into a more elite legion , which while being a generally bad idea with the current rules, would at also fit the legion well thematically. They'd still have options that help CSM blobs if that is more your thing.
Atm Vigulus ablaze helped a lot, but I find them lacking compared to the other legions, with one stratagem literally forcing you to soup, as if we needed more reason for that.
And the amount of CP/points needed to fully use their stragems, really pushes you toward cultists, nevermind Abaddons aura.

Could of course also just be that I'm miffed at not having anything resembling all their special detachments anymore, possessed, hounds, cabal etc.

Chaos units outside Cultists should have Vet stats at minimum. This has been a complaint of mine for a very long time.

That would be one hell of a bonus of course, but at that point they might as well redesign the codex along with the stat change, though that is a whole other discussion. Switching slots seems more feasible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Chaos units outside Cultists should have Vet stats at minimum. This has been a complaint of mine for a very long time.

problem is how do you represent more recently fallen CSMs? (I know you think a renegades codex is the way to go but I doubt that's viable) I do think though that GW should get rid of chosen...
CSMs should have the kind of weapon upgrade options chosen do now, and you should be able to buy a chosen stat line increase for say.. 1-2 PPM. given we know CSMs are going to 11 PPM in CA 2019 this would work nicely IMHO. basicly make CSMs something that can, go from cheap under equipped and poorly cordinated renegades to elite soaking in chaos for thousands of years veterns of the long war

I really don't understand where this notion of poorly coordinated and rookie CSM comes from, nevermind in a Black Legion thread.
You're not the only one to say this, but it doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
You take well trained and coordinated loyalist marine, then have them switch sides and all of a sudden they're supposed to be foaming at the mouth using their bolter as clubs, 2001 style? Like, wut?
When they turn traitor, the lose precisely none of their training, their discipline or their mental faculties... ok maybe the last one depending on how they turn, but not as a rule.

They are still the same elite super humans, with the same gear no less. And they still haev forgeworlds etc on top of taking what they raided.
They can't produce at the level of the imperium, but they also need to supply a fraction of the forces the imperium has so that evens it out.
Also the heresy era gear is generally superior to current tech, cawl-handwavium-tech not withstanding. And this is on top of being wielded by warriors that have thousands of years of experience since it wouldn't be given to any random CSM.
Warriors that fought in the biggest wars the imperium has seen and came out the other side. The big shots must have kill counters that would make daemon blush.
So even BEFORE considering gifts and warp tech, they should be superior if anything. Behind the scenes they might get in each others faces, but once they hit the battlefield they fight like you would expect any astartes to fight.
And for Black Legion specifically there is a strong sense of brotherhood.

Of course according to the codex, they immediately burn any STC that is still in use in the imperium and most definitely are afraid of anything that goes faster than 5 miles an hour.
But yea, even the lowliest renegade would be at bare minimum on par with loyalist astartes. though I will admit that you can only become so much better unless you are a one of a kind champion, so veteran loyalists are pretty much on par with veteran CSM.
At least before considering warp shenanigans.


If we're talking about sweeping changes though, the CSM codex could be redone pretty much completely. And we can without a doubt say that the number of books is not an obstacle to GW at this point.
How many supplements are Loyalists at now? Plus various other imperium books that can be souped in. I'm borderline surprised they aren't releasing a whole new faction every few months.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Chaos units outside Cultists should have Vet stats at minimum. This has been a complaint of mine for a very long time.

problem is how do you represent more recently fallen CSMs? (I know you think a renegades codex is the way to go but I doubt that's viable) I do think though that GW should get rid of chosen...
CSMs should have the kind of weapon upgrade options chosen do now, and you should be able to buy a chosen stat line increase for say.. 1-2 PPM. given we know CSMs are going to 11 PPM in CA 2019 this would work nicely IMHO. basicly make CSMs something that can, go from cheap under equipped and poorly cordinated renegades to elite soaking in chaos for thousands of years veterns of the long war

Ok now we're on the same page. Bring back votlw.

Come to think of it, there are no newly loyalist turned traitor. They only ever turn traitor once they've had enough of the imperiums gak, which typcally takes a while. So even new csm recruits are the very least marines that have gone through hell.

I wish that Chosen would be rebranded into your "veteran legionnaires" with same stat line as primaris. I think for your run of the mill renegades your cheap 11ppm marines are a good comparision to your standard tacticals with your "primaris" csm being your 10k years twisted in the warp legions.