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I got back into 40k about 6 months ago after a 20+ year break. I'd always wanted to play Eldar but when I was younger funds were very limited.
So now I'm a 'bit' older I've loved building up the Eldar force I'd always wanted.
There's just one downside, I've been really struggling. Playing a game every 2 weeks for the last 6 months I've only won a single game, and that was by 1 point!
Some of it is down to my inexperience vs the people I play against (they do quite a few tournaments and often bring tourney lists e.g. marines, guard, knights, etc.), but I've frequently just felt like my army has been completely outclassed by my opponents army.
I've tried everything I can think of e.g. biker lists, wraithguard\wraithblades in wave serpents\webway, various aspect warriors, you name it I've probably tried it. Every game has involved trying out a different list. But whatever I do they either counter it, or they can do it better for less points.
I really REALLY don't want to resort to flyer spam.
So far I've had the most success with shooty lists.
Tactics:
- Deploy up the board using the troops and walkers as a screen.
- Deploy the shining spears behind the screen but in sight of the enemy, use them to act as magnets for incoming heavy fire (which they do, people will shoot EVERYTHING at them to try and kill them, including lascannons!) .
- Put the support platforms and warp hunters further back.
- While my opponent is unloading on the shining spears he isn't shooting the other stuff.
- Now try to kill as much of the enemy as possible with shooting before he realizes that the shining spears aren't what he should actually be shooting at! By which time it's hopefully to late and most of his key units are smoking wrecks.
- Once he has expended any deep strike type units the warp hunters start working up the board nailing any hard targets that may still be alive by switching to their 12" D6 shots auto hit s10 -4 apD6 damage 'flamer' mode instead of the indirect fire 36" d3 shots mode.
So, what do you think... can I improve this list? It's the latest version of the shooty list, so far it's untested but a similar list did well last time.
I got back into 40k about 6 months ago after a 20+ year break. I'd always wanted to play Eldar but when I was younger funds were very limited.
So now I'm a 'bit' older I've loved building up the Eldar force I'd always wanted.
There's just one downside, I've been really struggling. Playing a game every 2 weeks for the last 6 months I've only won a single game, and that was by 1 point!
Some of it is down to my inexperience vs the people I play against (they do quite a few tournaments and often bring tourney lists e.g. marines, guard, knights, etc.), but I've frequently just felt like my army has been completely outclassed by my opponents army.
I've tried everything I can think of e.g. biker lists, wraithguard\wraithblades in wave serpents\webway, various aspect warriors, you name it I've probably tried it. Every game has involved trying out a different list. But whatever I do they either counter it, or they can do it better for less points.
I really REALLY don't want to resort to flyer spam.
So far I've had the most success with shooty lists.
Tactics:
- Deploy up the board using the troops and walkers as a screen. - Deploy the shining spears behind the screen but in sight of the enemy, use them to act as magnets for incoming heavy fire (which they do, people will shoot EVERYTHING at them to try and kill them, including lascannons!) . - Put the support platforms and warp hunters further back. - While my opponent is unloading on the shining spears he isn't shooting the other stuff. - Now try to kill as much of the enemy as possible with shooting before he realizes that the shining spears aren't what he should actually be shooting at! By which time it's hopefully to late and most of his key units are smoking wrecks. - Once he has expended any deep strike type units the warp hunters start working up the board nailing any hard targets that may still be alive by switching to their 12" D6 shots auto hit s10 -4 apD6 damage 'flamer' mode instead of the indirect fire 36" d3 shots mode.
So, what do you think... can I improve this list? It's the latest version of the shooty list, so far it's untested but a similar list did well last time.
Support Weapons [6 PL, 80pts] Support Weapon [3 PL, 40pts] Selections: Vibro Cannon [15pts] Support Weapon [3 PL, 40pts] Selections: Vibro Cannon [15pts]
Support Weapons [6 PL, 80pts] Support Weapon [3 PL, 40pts] Selections: Vibro Cannon [15pts] Support Weapon [3 PL, 40pts] Selections: Vibro Cannon [15pts]
Hey man.
I have a very similar story to yours. Its nice to be able to do the hobby justice without going full poor hammer aye ? Its a decent collection you have there. Well done!
Couple things I would like to clarify if I may?
Are these all the models you have ready for battle? Do you have other units such as guardians/rangers for troops slots? Can you post whats available in temrs of army composition? Do things have to be wysyswig? What games format do you play? Do you use enough terrain?
Without knowing these things some of the cuff observations:
Warp hunters sound great but I think they are overcosted for what they do. Your much better off with a spearhead of master crafters/concealment fire prisms. That's will save you points and linekd fire for 1 CP give you some serious alpha strike capability.
Also it sounds like you are playing knights but I don't see that much dedicated AT. Im talking reapers, Bright lances. a lot of smite. 3 walrocks is too many... They don't have a proper smite so you are paying points for a very expensive buffer with little utility. Youre better off leaning out other portions of the army and getting some spirit seers/farseers for the MW or even an autarch to hang out with the spears.
Yes, you are handicapping yourself by not doing alitoic flyer spam. But I am also in exactly the same mind set. Ive been building lists purely to win the mission whilst being killy enough to whittle down enemies often get tabled but win on points and play the mission and use every trick in the book and be ruthlessly efficient with list building.
Immediately, Id drop the 4th unit of DA. The heavy lifting is done by our heavy support/other units. The troops are a tax for CP battery and screening so you don't want to have any more than you need. Having said that have you tried 20 guardians in the web way with doom/guide?
Also. wave serpents. I don't see any wave serpents and they are out second best unit after CHE. They are very resilient objective holders with added utility of MW output. Id look at getting some of those. I only tend to use one. People hate targeting them
Also regarding shining spears: why not put them in two squads of 4, 2x3 or 3 & 4 ? That way you take maximum advantage out of the exarch invuln power. Cats protect on the squad of 4 and conceal on squad of 3. Giving your opponent really hard choices. Shoot at -1/-2 2+ 2++ (with fortune 5+++) or -2/-3 3++ (5+++) with fortune. Also you can then split them on two flanks and use terrain so they cannot fire everything at them and have to make tough decisions. Obviously you want to go first
Also, Id look at getting some reapers. Flat damage 3 doubling is hella powerful (you can protect them in the serpent I recommended).
Also, unless its going in blind don't feel bad to tailor a little bit considering you don't have the experience and you are missing the most point efficient units (Fliers).. If you know you are up against IK, bring more AT. If you know its lots marine infantry then you want tempest launchers and night spinners. Maybe ask the gusy to tone down their lists. They should anyway if they know you are not bringing fliers.. Id always tell my oponents btw im not bringing any flier spam. So they know that means. I haven't min maxed to wipe you off the board so appreciate the same aye ?
Also recommend watching some bat reps. Things like target priority, wrapping and trapping tagging are things learned through experience.
Check out the tactica thread. on CWE.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/25 23:31:58
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I have a very similar story to yours. Its nice to be able to do the hobby justice without going full poor hammer aye ?
Its a decent collection you have there. Well done!
Couple things I would like to clarify if I may?
Are these all the models you have ready for battle?
Do you have other units such as guardians/rangers for troops slots? Can you post whats available in temrs of army composition?
Do things have to be wysyswig?
What games format do you play?
Do you use enough terrain?
Without knowing these things some of the cuff observations:
Warp hunters sound great but I think they are overcosted for what they do. Your much better off with a spearhead of master crafters/concealment fire prisms. That's will save you points and linekd fire for 1 CP give you some serious alpha strike capability.
Also it sounds like you are playing knights but I don't see that much dedicated AT. Im talking reapers, Bright lances. a lot of smite.
3 walrocks is too many... They don't have a proper smite so you are paying points for a very expensive buffer with little utility. Youre better off leaning out other portions of the army and getting some spirit seers/farseers for the MW or even an autarch to hang out with the spears.
Yes, you are handicapping yourself by not doing alitoic flyer spam. But I am also in exactly the same mind set. Ive been building lists purely to win the mission whilst being killy enough to whittle down enemies often get tabled but win on points and play the mission and use every trick in the book and be ruthlessly efficient with list building.
Immediately, Id drop the 4th unit of DA. The heavy lifting is done by our heavy support/other units. The troops are a tax for CP battery and screening so you don't want to have any more than you need. Having said that have you tried 20 guardians in the web way with doom/guide?
Also. wave serpents. I don't see any wave serpents and they are out second best unit after CHE. They are very resilient objective holders with added utility of MW output.
Id look at getting some of those. I only tend to use one. People hate targeting them
Also regarding shining spears: why not put them in two squads of 4, 2x3 or 3 & 4 ? That way you take maximum advantage out of the exarch invuln power. Cats protect on the squad of 4 and conceal on squad of 3. Giving your opponent really hard choices. Shoot at -1/-2 2+ 2++ (with fortune 5+++) or -2/-3 3++ (5+++) with fortune. Also you can then split them on two flanks and use terrain so they cannot fire everything at them and have to make tough decisions. Obviously you want to go first
Also, Id look at getting some reapers. Flat damage 3 doubling is hella powerful (you can protect them in the serpent I recommended).
Also, unless its going in blind don't feel bad to tailor a little bit considering you don't have the experience and you are missing the most point efficient units (Fliers).. If you know you are up against IK, bring more AT. If you know its lots marine infantry then you want tempest launchers and night spinners. Maybe ask the gusy to tone down their lists. They should anyway if they know you are not bringing fliers.. Id always tell my oponents btw im not bringing any flier spam. So they know that means. I haven't min maxed to wipe you off the board so appreciate the same aye ?
Also recommend watching some bat reps. Things like target priority, wrapping and trapping tagging are things learned through experience.
Check out the tactica thread. on CWE.
Thank you, I really appreciate it! Sounds like we think alike in many ways, good to know I'm not crazy (or if I am at least I'm not alone )
The list above is all stuff I already own, plus there's a whole bunch more stuff on the shelf that's not in the list but ready to go:..
20x Guardians (and 2 weapons platforms)
8x Storm Guardians
5x Rangers
10x Fire dragons + 2 exarchs
15x Wraithguard\blades (magnetized, have 15 pairs of swords + 15 axes+shields + 15 wraithcannons\d-sythes)
1x Illic Nightspear
1x Avatar of Khaine
3x Hornets
3x Walkers
3x Wave Serpents
2x Fire Prysm's
1x Autarch (with magnetized wings and magnetized reaper launcher)
1x Autarch on a Jetbike
1x Farseer on a jetbike
2x Warlocks
Add to that a big tub of magnetized heavy weapons (all models are magnetized) so I can swap things round and try different stuff.
Definitely like things to be WYSIWYG, happy to do conversions to achieve this.
Always matched play, normally 2000 points. Occasionally eternal war or malestrom from the rulebook, but looks like it'll be mostly ITC from here on..
We didn't have much terrain to start with, so I scratch built 4 large 16" square multilevel ruined buildings and a selection of other things. There's plenty of LOS blocking stuff on the table, I take a crate of scenery with me every time I go.
I tried the fire prisms and they were ok but I found it was all to easy for my opponent to just hide from them if they didn't get to go first, then just blow them up on their turn. I tried spreading them out across my deployment zone so they were harder to hide from, but then they were a lot harder to screen and invariably he'd deepstrike\teleport something nasty on them.
The warp hunters can't reach out as far but in 'artillery mode' they don't need LOS and they literally just shred stuff from behind a ruin, emerging a bit later in the game to run riot, and they are only 20 points more than a fire prisim. The difference is probably even less as you don't really need to take any vehicle equipment on them.
In theory the anti-tank gets taken care of by the warp hunters and the vibro cannons, assisted by the 12x Star cannons on the walkers if needs be. I was thinking of some dark reapers.. that's a good call.
With regards to the Warlocks, they are there just to buff the shining spears as you say. I take a single big unit so I can Conceal, Protect and Fortune that one big unit, then send them all off with quicken into my opponents back line. It is a heck of a points investment though as you point out!
I'll try smaller groups of shining spears without the excessive warlock support, and then swap one of the Warlocks out for an Autarch as you suggest.
I have tried things like deep striking 20 Guardians but my opponents have all refined screening to an art form so I never get to drop on anything juicy.
Fair point about the 4 Dire Avenger squads, 4 is probably to many.
Really appreciate all the other advice too, thank you
Maybe a squad or two additional of rangers and another squad of Storm guardians would be useful... That way you could build a cheap but efficient double battalion and the extra bodies would be useful to screen out the deep strikers. If you can LFR every round on high value stuff as well as keep a CP back for celestial shield/clutch re-rolls. Rangers are very good for screening. Abiotic rangers get even better as you can make them be hit only on 6's for 1 cp or just leave them at -2... But I'd argue that you might be better of running a bieltan battalion with 3x min sized DA, Biketarch+ AOK and 2x4 spears. I say 2x4 because of redundancy.
The reason for bieltan is - Inbuilt re-roll ones for the DA and twin cats for spears in case they get separated from autarch. or you choose to sacrifice one squad to hold the other side of the board. Secondly, court of the young king stratagem. Plus AOK being quite ard in combat. Thirdly you can give either AOK or autarch the bieltan warlord trait to give guide to one of the bike units. You can blob them up nto one unit but I think that's putting too many eggs in one basket. Remmeber you don't have to make it into combat t1. You might want to think about going second if you get a choice and really manouver to strike hard T2.
Consider a second battalion to be Concealment/master crafters with just rangers biker seer and bikelock.
Reapers - You are already aware.
Let me tell you they are bloody good. As your opponents are good at screening you need something good at clearing chaff screens. And there is nothing better than Dark reaper exarchs with tempest launchers. With the new power he can re-roll any of the 2d6 for his number of shots. Does not need LOS. and at 103pts (+-) per squad you can easily take 2-3 squads without breaking the bank. Stick an autarch nearby with his own reaper launcher for re-roll ones on of crafters re-roll you have a very very reliable fire base. You want them as far back as possible in cover and idealy somehere with good firing lines for the non exarchs. Benefit of being MSU is they will have to be overkilled by long range fire power. But your opponents seem to really fear the spears so they
Fireprisms - Yes they need LOS but consider if you run 3 of them only one needs to see the target for linked fire then the remaining two can unload on the same target.
Night spinners. If there's a lot of LOS terrain you use that to your advantage.
I'll make a list to see if you can see some synergies.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
The DAs are mid range screeners while rangers are backline screeners. If you your screening right he wont have anywhere to DS to threaten your backline.
Created with [url=https://battlescribe.net]BattleScribe[/url
The idea is you have you backfield of walkers and reapers with their serpent. His primary objective is to store the autarch and reapers if you don't get first turn in case they have some LOS ignoring dakka. He's secondary objective is laying down AT pot shots hes equipped with CTM so if anything big gets within range gthat he can draw a bead on he can move and blast it without penalties. Also if you are getting first turn and he is not needed to be hiding the reapers, you can fly him up the board or load him up with the units anyway and reposition them to a more favourable spot.
Its all about Efficiency, duality, redundancy. The list has been design so that if any one unit gets destroyed it really doesn't matter. The rest of the army can keep performing.
The second ulthwe serpents job is to bomb it up the board ideally screening AOK/ bikes tarch and bait enemies into shooting at him rather than the reapers or walkers. Chances are they will not want to take all the MW potentially. Eldrad is really really reaaally bloody good. Don't forget with 14 CP you can really splash out the seer council/corcordance of power strategems/LFR, COTK, have him and the warlock work in tandem. The spirit seer can be given spirit stone of althalan instead of falochus wing if you don't fins hes lagging behind the bikes. Don't forget you can put one of the bike squads in DS while the other bombs it up the board. Then you can cast ghost walk as well as COTYK for a +4" charge out of DS.
The tactic is to spring to life T2 and really put the pain down with MWs. So T1 you want to takes some long distance pot shots and hide as much of your stuff as possible. The reapers should outrange most of the enmy army. You want to frustrate them and make them move then T2 just explode and use your mobility to maximum effect to isolate and destroy high value targets and bring the MW to bear where it hurts... (You have smites/executioner, double tapping Reaper exarch with EML that can do D3 mortals to a fly unit for 1 CP, serpent shields etc.)
I understand you don't have the reapers. So this is not ideal and I don't mean to suggest getting more models....Maybe could borrow some to try them out ? Alternatively you could in theory drop them from the list and take a blob of wraithguard instead for close range AT but you will need to work double hard at cleaning the screening. Of course you could take quicken to help with target acquisition.
Don't forget you can put one of the bike squads in DS while the other bombs it up the board. Then you can cast ghost walk as well as COTYK for a +4" charge out of DS.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/11/26 04:33:25
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
I'll give the second list a try, it's similar to something I went with when I first started but I didn't have any dark reapers.That said I'm 99% sure there are some in a box in the garage from when I used to play, e.g. proper old-hammer metal dark reapers.
Failing that there's always ebay, and it gives me a chance to do some more painting too!
Thank you so much for your suggestions, they really help.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
First glaring item is Warlock on bikes. Dump 'em and upgrade to farseers. Their 3 wound characteristic alone makes the upgrade to farseer 6 worth while. And you're hanging on to a Shining Spears build from almost 2 years ago (Nick Nanavati, LVO 2018). I tried to run it, too. It's too dependent on all the warlock buffs going off, and the meta knows how to deal with it, now. Its gimmickiness (sp?) and aged-meta presence are weaknesses.
Go all farseers, and maybe a spiritseer (better wounds, same spells/psy and points are worth it).
Doom & Mind War for the first. Doom, cuz, ya know, Doom. Mind War because much of the meta has character support buffing systems, and Mind Warring an enemy character is great. Coupled with rangers in the shooting phase and you can almost guarantee a character snuff a turn. I am still enjoying the flavor of rolling a versus Mephiston's . And I didn't even have a HemlockWF using the MindPod to shock Mephy down 2 notches.
The 2nd farseer need not be onna bike. I use Guide & Executioner. Guide for my resident Dark Reapers and when something gets close, Executioner followed by the strat "Unparalled Mastery" to get Smite means a lot of mortal wounds dealt to a threatening unit.
Second big item:
Stop swapping your list around (except for the above noted change). You've got to get used to it. Play it for 6 to 10 games. *If* you make a tweak, make it one unit. When I look at top level players, they've been playing the same list a lot. And personal experience, I've done better in sticking with the same list a lot, and getting to know its strengths and ins and outs.
But you do need something decent to start.
All that, and you're lacking the elves' best unit (I saw your more recent "What I own" post):
Dark Reapers
Marines have lots of shenanigans now, and the DRs' Inescapable Accuracy is gonna mitigate that, a lot. I'm ordering 10 more reapers with the next GW shipment (so, I'll have 20). The meta has just shifted hard in the direction of power armor and what you have is quite out gunned. I have just watched my 11 and 13 league list (11wins, 2 losses) Drukhari/eldar list get trounced by Imp Fists, and Iron Hands. Moar Reapers might help. Maybe. So, now the list is 11 and 15.
Here's my core list:
Black Heart
archon - relic for re-roll wound bubble
archon
3x5 kabalite troop tax
3x Ravagers with Dis Cans < --- one of the best anti-Primaris guns in the game, but unit-wise too fragile against marine shooting. If I deploy to use range, I can get an upper hand
2x5 Scourge units, haywire blasters (sometimes 3 units). Their Deep Strike & anti-vehicle
Alaitoc elves
Farseer bike
Farseer foot
3x5 rangers (character sniping assists)
x8 DRs, 1 of those Tempest Launcher
x3 DRs, 1 of those Tempest Launcher
2 Hemlocks Jinx & Restrain or ... other, situational
It's not flier spam, with just 2. I'm considering adding Harlies, but with the SM shift, I dunno. I dunno. I might have to buy and play SM just to get a better idea how to beat them. I had to do the same with with Tau in 4e and eldar in 5e. Buy the enemy, play 'em and learn.
Definitely proxy your Warlocks as farseers, play Wave Serpents, and hone up on fire power aspects, but I think your fixes, like mine, are going to start with our wallets.
How does that help you?
TL : DR
I say, run 2 or 3 battalions. Buy 2 more units of rangers
Battalion #1
2 farseers
3x5 DAs (eventually replace with rangers or pork up to full units of 10)
Wave Serpents
Fire Dragons
Yer Wasps
Battalion #2
Farseer
Autarch - wings or jetbike
Deep Strike the 20 Guardian unit (autarch accompanies)
Storm Guardians
3rd troop?
Proxy a Fire Prism as Night Spinner (for the non-Los shooting) until you get a more accurate top
And, ya know. DRs.
"You can bring any cheesy unit you want. If you lose. Casey taught me that." -Tim S.
"I'm gonna follow Casey; he knows where the beer's at!" -Blackmoor, BAO 2013
Eldar- 4436 pts
)
versus Mephiston's 
. And I didn't even have a HemlockWF using the MindPod to shock Mephy down 2 notches. 
