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Hi Folks - Thanks for taking a look!

Up against my friends knights list. My guys aren't painted up in any particular chapter so I'd appreciate suggestions as to which chapter to use them as. I like painting so I have other units such as aggressors, relic dreads, contemptor dreads, hellblasters etc., so if I am missing something please let me know.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [49 PL, 993pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**

+ HQ +

Captain in Phobos Armour [5 PL, 99pts]: Camo cloak, Master-crafted instigator bolt carbine

Librarian in Phobos Armour [5 PL, 101pts]: Camo cloak, Force sword

+ Troops +

Incursor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]: 4x Incursor, Incursor Sergeant

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

Infiltrator Squad [5 PL, 110pts]: 4x Infilltrator, Infiltrator Sergeant

+ Elites +

Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber

Invictor Tactical Warsuit [6 PL, 131pts]: Fragstorm Grenade Launcher, Heavy bolter, Incendium cannon, 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubber

+ Heavy Support +

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts]
. Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak
. 2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts]
. Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak
. 2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak

Eliminator Squad [4 PL, 72pts]
. Eliminator Sergeant: Bolt sniper rifle, Camo cloak
. 2x Eliminator with Bolt Sniper: 2x Bolt sniper rifle, 2x Camo cloak

++ Total: [49 PL, 993pts] ++

I don't play with your Phobos guys, but I have a knight. Just some initial thinking.

You'll have two options: trying to degrade the knight and/or playing to the mission.

Degrading the knight will be really tough with your current configuration. The easiest swap would be to equip the eliminators with las fusilliers. S8 wounds knights on 4s, AP -3 puts them on their *normal* 5++ (4++ will be common), and 3 damage a pop is consistent. I'm not aware of worthwhile anti-tank options for your other units, unless you want to suicide your Captain with a powerfist (not sure if Phobos caps can even take them). The Invictors may have a dreadnought fist or something.

The other option is playing the mission. What mission are you playing? If it is a pure knight list, maelstrom cards or ITC scoring based on kills is out. For objective holding - your guys will need to spread out and survive. They may mean not deploying as far forward as you can (to avoid knight melee), across the board (preventing a concentration of targets and forcing the knight to move), and, to the extent you can, staying in cover. Eliminators are good for plopping in the backline, particularly since I recall there is some mechanism for giving them the Phobos Captain rerolls even when he isn't with them. You're going to have to kite with your Troops, maybe sacrificing the Invictors to tie the knight up for a turn or two while you score objectives.

Thanks for getting back to me, I appreciate the feedback!

As a knight player is there anything you run up against that's particularly painful to knights? I've got a lot of other units just trying to make a semi-competitive list.

I have a contemptor with a C beam and Twin lascannon or Relic Leviathian with Grav Bombard and Storm cannon array, just not very good at making lists, hence the cry for help

I'd look to this crowd here for more specifics, I play casually with friends so have only encountered Guard, SM, Tau, Orks, and Custodes.

Knights usually lose their invulns in melee, unless they take one particular relic. Managing to get a dreadnought in melee may help. I see you have a Librarian - trying to get him close and casting Null Zone (that negates invulns, right?) would be huge if you have some serious ranged firepower like lascannons or heavy plasma.

What I've seen happen is usually more a volume of fire wears it down. I use the knight to draw fire from the rest of my army - it doesn't usually make its points back directly (may not apply to someone running solely knights). Some games, folks will get lucky with some plasma or lascannon shots early on, others folks will spend an entire round grinding it down and then taking it out in melee with a Deffdread. You'll need threat diversity as any single solution will be targeted as a priority.

If you've got options and you're tailoring your list - I'd try to some rough mathhammer.

Take your available options, plot them out:

Expected number of shots * probability of hit * probability of wounding * probability of a failed save (accounting for both base save and the invuln) * damage.

I like to divide that score by the number of points the unit costs to give a Wounds Inflicted per Point score that enables cross-unit comparison.

Where this becomes tricky is if you need to move, add stratagems, charge and get in melee as more things happen that could enable the knight to degrade you (hide behind terrain, overwatch, etc.). The same basic principal applies to scoring melee, you just have to use judgment on what are feasible/optimistic/conservative approaches to evaluating.

primaris marines without heavy melee weapons on the sgts struggle against knights. They are the target knights most enjoy shooting, because knight weapons need a certain density of cost to make their points back, and primaris both cost a lot and don't protect especially well aginst thermal lance fire. Conversely, primars are the guys trying to wound the knights on a "6" with their own guns. (or a 5,6 on armigers, which is relevant at 1000 points.)

ravengaurd is a good option. knights are bs3+ but they can't easily improve it or compensate for a -1 to hit at range. tiny lists of knights are really bad at screening agaunst turn 1 charges by ravengaurd's pattented "stick these aggressors or centuruions up his tuckus" move.