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I'm seeing more and more posts about this topic, and it is a real problem with 8th edition. Games are over for most casual players in 1 or 2 turns especially if they run terrain "as written" rather than using ITC LOS blocking rules. Playing at 2k points is akin to a coin flip, and the player that goes first has a huge advantage.

I have been playing more and more of the new apoc rules since the insane space marine release, and I have to say, they are insanely good. 100PL games are about the same model count as my 2k 8th edition games, but take significantly less time (done in around an hour now that we know the rules) AND half of our armies are still alive at the end.

I bet if you gave the rules a try (even without the strategem cards), you would all be much happier (like I am).

urzaplanewalker wrote:
I'm seeing more and more posts about this topic, and it is a real problem with 8th edition. Games are over for most casual players in 1 or 2 turns especially if they run terrain "as written" rather than using ITC LOS blocking rules. Playing at 2k points is akin to a coin flip, and the player that goes first has a huge advantage.

I have been playing more and more of the new apoc rules since the insane space marine release, and I have to say, they are insanely good. 100PL games are about the same model count as my 2k 8th edition games, but take significantly less time (done in around an hour now that we know the rules) AND half of our armies are still alive at the end.

I bet if you gave the rules a try (even without the strategem cards), you would all be much happier (like I am).

In general the new APOC rules were an experiment. While they do mostly work they operate on a highly abstracted level which goes against standard 40K reduce the abstraction concept. I have a feeling they will be phased out. The problem with 8th really boils down to they made a "new" system and then ignored it and designed everything as though it were 6/7th and based all their decisions there on so they didn't mesh rationally with the core design alterations that 8th introduced.

Since then they keep making codexes and sundry from a 7th edition perspective with 8th bolted on so they keep having to bolt on more fixes till we've got something even a Mekboy would consider too dodgy to work.

Apoc is extremely abstracted. You can play with tokens instead of with the figures. It isn't quite as purely abstract as Epic was, but its close. Epic worked because in an abstracted sense the small models made for that mile high feel.

 meatybtz wrote:

urzaplanewalker wrote:
I'm seeing more and more posts about this topic, and it is a real problem with 8th edition. Games are over for most casual players in 1 or 2 turns especially if they run terrain "as written" rather than using ITC LOS blocking rules. Playing at 2k points is akin to a coin flip, and the player that goes first has a huge advantage.

I have been playing more and more of the new apoc rules since the insane space marine release, and I have to say, they are insanely good. 100PL games are about the same model count as my 2k 8th edition games, but take significantly less time (done in around an hour now that we know the rules) AND half of our armies are still alive at the end.

I bet if you gave the rules a try (even without the strategem cards), you would all be much happier (like I am).

In general the new APOC rules were an experiment. While they do mostly work they operate on a highly abstracted level which goes against standard 40K reduce the abstraction concept. I have a feeling they will be phased out. The problem with 8th really boils down to they made a "new" system and then ignored it and designed everything as though it were 6/7th and based all their decisions there on so they didn't mesh rationally with the core design alterations that 8th introduced.

Since then they keep making codexes and sundry from a 7th edition perspective with 8th bolted on so they keep having to bolt on more fixes till we've got something even a Mekboy would consider too dodgy to work.

Apoc is extremely abstracted. You can play with tokens instead of with the figures. It isn't quite as purely abstract as Epic was, but its close. Epic worked because in an abstracted sense the small models made for that mile high feel.

It definitely was an experiment, but one that I feel was very successful despite the lukewarm response from the community. It also solves like 99% of the problems that I see on this sub. I was also writing my own version of 8th ed when this game dropped and was developing it right up until I played my first game of apoc. That game I wrote is dead now because GW did a even better job than I did. I'm just trying to tell people that instead of writing their own ruleset to 8th which none of their 8th ed community will want to play, they can pick up apoc and help build a community for that.

urzaplanewalker wrote:

 meatybtz wrote:

urzaplanewalker wrote:
I'm seeing more and more posts about this topic, and it is a real problem with 8th edition. Games are over for most casual players in 1 or 2 turns especially if they run terrain "as written" rather than using ITC LOS blocking rules. Playing at 2k points is akin to a coin flip, and the player that goes first has a huge advantage.

I have been playing more and more of the new apoc rules since the insane space marine release, and I have to say, they are insanely good. 100PL games are about the same model count as my 2k 8th edition games, but take significantly less time (done in around an hour now that we know the rules) AND half of our armies are still alive at the end.

I bet if you gave the rules a try (even without the strategem cards), you would all be much happier (like I am).

In general the new APOC rules were an experiment. While they do mostly work they operate on a highly abstracted level which goes against standard 40K reduce the abstraction concept. I have a feeling they will be phased out. The problem with 8th really boils down to they made a "new" system and then ignored it and designed everything as though it were 6/7th and based all their decisions there on so they didn't mesh rationally with the core design alterations that 8th introduced.

Since then they keep making codexes and sundry from a 7th edition perspective with 8th bolted on so they keep having to bolt on more fixes till we've got something even a Mekboy would consider too dodgy to work.

Apoc is extremely abstracted. You can play with tokens instead of with the figures. It isn't quite as purely abstract as Epic was, but its close. Epic worked because in an abstracted sense the small models made for that mile high feel.

It definitely was an experiment, but one that I feel was very successful despite the lukewarm response from the community. It also solves like 99% of the problems that I see on this sub. I was also writing my own version of 8th ed when this game dropped and was developing it right up until I played my first game of apoc. That game I wrote is dead now because GW did a even better job than I did. I'm just trying to tell people that instead of writing their own ruleset to 8th which none of their 8th ed community will want to play, they can pick up apoc and help build a community for that.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that as a system in and of itself the current Apoc rules actually work well. The issue is one of abstraction. 28mm player tend not to be big on the "mile high" view of the battle.

Franky 7th worked if you tossed out the codex creep and certain blatant rules abuses and fixed some wordings to fix abused loop-holes, perhaps bolted on a few fixes, maybe 5 rules changes total.

Generally GW suffers from 2 problems -poorly theorized rules that are either intentional misplayed or misread... so that they open up abuse (ex, 7th edition 2+ FNP or.. 3++ tanking every shot from the front... or Super Friends) and the second is Power Creep where they abuse the rules even further to sell both the new codex and models that are either new or they have too many sitting on the shelves (7th Windriders or 8th Dark Reapers).

There are other examples as well. But in general.. its not an impossible problem. Poison is one of those rules that never made any sense. 4+ Poison means your gun is S3 to T3 and S2 to T2 and S5 to T5 except higher T units tend to have poison mitigation generally either FNP or even worse Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures in the old rules. It would have been best as a rule of +1 to wound.. I seem to remember that being the case in ages past.. in WHFB I think. But the memory is hazy. Either way poison is a great example of a gak rule that GW insisted on charging premium for while "bladestorm" was a rule that was OP as hell.

Again, nothing wrong with Apoc but it is it's own "game system" and it doesn't share any relation to the mechanisms and details of 40K and blast markers are a direct rip off of the older abstract game systems like Epic and BFG.

 meatybtz wrote:


Don't get me wrong, I agree that as a system in and of itself the current Apoc rules actually work well. The issue is one of abstraction. 28mm player tend not to be big on the "mile high" view of the battle.

Franky 7th worked if you tossed out the codex creep and certain blatant rules abuses and fixed some wordings to fix abused loop-holes, perhaps bolted on a few fixes, maybe 5 rules changes total.

Generally GW suffers from 2 problems -poorly theorized rules that are either intentional misplayed or misread... so that they open up abuse (ex, 7th edition 2+ FNP or.. 3++ tanking every shot from the front... or Super Friends) and the second is Power Creep where they abuse the rules even further to sell both the new codex and models that are either new or they have too many sitting on the shelves (7th Windriders or 8th Dark Reapers).

There are other examples as well. But in general.. its not an impossible problem. Poison is one of those rules that never made any sense. 4+ Poison means your gun is S3 to T3 and S2 to T2 and S5 to T5 except higher T units tend to have poison mitigation generally either FNP or even worse Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures in the old rules. It would have been best as a rule of +1 to wound.. I seem to remember that being the case in ages past.. in WHFB I think. But the memory is hazy. Either way poison is a great example of a gak rule that GW insisted on charging premium for while "bladestorm" was a rule that was OP as hell.

Again, nothing wrong with Apoc but it is it's own "game system" and it doesn't share any relation to the mechanisms and details of 40K and blast markers are a direct rip off of the older abstract game systems like Epic and BFG.

From what I've been told, apoc was effectively written by some members of the old Epic team and it shows. Another thing fixed by apoc is that they released all of the rules for free at once for every army.

The fact that it uses the exact same models as 40k definitely improves it's accessibility compared to games like Titanicus (which was 100% DoA in my area). It's not even that much more abstract than 8th edition is now given that if a unit is targeted it usually is completely destroyed by rolling 1000 dice at it on turn 1.

urzaplanewalker wrote:

 meatybtz wrote:


Don't get me wrong, I agree that as a system in and of itself the current Apoc rules actually work well. The issue is one of abstraction. 28mm player tend not to be big on the "mile high" view of the battle.

Franky 7th worked if you tossed out the codex creep and certain blatant rules abuses and fixed some wordings to fix abused loop-holes, perhaps bolted on a few fixes, maybe 5 rules changes total.

Generally GW suffers from 2 problems -poorly theorized rules that are either intentional misplayed or misread... so that they open up abuse (ex, 7th edition 2+ FNP or.. 3++ tanking every shot from the front... or Super Friends) and the second is Power Creep where they abuse the rules even further to sell both the new codex and models that are either new or they have too many sitting on the shelves (7th Windriders or 8th Dark Reapers).

There are other examples as well. But in general.. its not an impossible problem. Poison is one of those rules that never made any sense. 4+ Poison means your gun is S3 to T3 and S2 to T2 and S5 to T5 except higher T units tend to have poison mitigation generally either FNP or even worse Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures in the old rules. It would have been best as a rule of +1 to wound.. I seem to remember that being the case in ages past.. in WHFB I think. But the memory is hazy. Either way poison is a great example of a gak rule that GW insisted on charging premium for while "bladestorm" was a rule that was OP as hell.

Again, nothing wrong with Apoc but it is it's own "game system" and it doesn't share any relation to the mechanisms and details of 40K and blast markers are a direct rip off of the older abstract game systems like Epic and BFG.

From what I've been told, apoc was effectively written by some members of the old Epic team and it shows. Another thing fixed by apoc is that they released all of the rules for free at once for every army.

The fact that it uses the exact same models as 40k definitely improves it's accessibility compared to games like Titanicus (which was 100% DoA in my area). It's not even that much more abstract than 8th edition is now given that if a unit is targeted it usually is completely destroyed by rolling 1000 dice at it on turn 1.

Bolded, totally agree. By releasing all the rules at once for all armies (kinda like the indexes) things tend to work better. Though index was half-assed the fact that everyone was equally half-assed actually helped.

Totally true about wiping out units. It is why I brought up units like Land Raiders (heavy vehicles really.. you can insert necron choices here, or fexes, or tyrants, or any number of heavy vehicles that just get deleted turn one). Some things are ridiculous. Deleting half your opponents army on turn one shooting is one of those things. Most folks don't care if a unit gets nuked before it can "really be effective" as long as they actually get to move and use it, even if only marginally before it gets deleted. But most people recognize that deleting units enmass before they can even do anything isn't fun.

We could always re-insert 5th vehicle rules hehe. I personally prefer 5ths must allocate wound dice to be saved to all models in a unit before adding additional dice to any given model. It prevents Tanking.

Also, alot of factions in APoc have better rules support then in mainline 40k for whatever reason. (Especially FW index ones )