Dour Duty

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**p5freak**

What happens when i play this on a weapon which has AP0 ? Does it go to +1, which would improve my sv roll ?

DOUR DUTY
Use this Stratagem in your opponent’s Shooting phase or your Charge phase, when an IRON WARRIORS unit from your army is chosen as the target for an attack. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against that unit, worsen the Armour Penetration characteristic of that weapon by 1 for that attack (e.g. AP -1 becomes AP 0).

**Bilge Rat**

As far as I am aware, there is no precedent for AP values greater than zero. In the absence of other evidence I think the safest approach is to assume that they can't happen.

**Not Online!!!**

To my knowledge, are there even weapons with positive armour modifiers ?

**Sterling191**

Not Online!!! wrote:
To my knowledge, are there even weapons with positive armour modifiers ?

There are not. However, nothing in the ruleset precludes them to my knowledge, and other abilities like this usually have a limiting statement ("to a maximum of AP0" for instance). It'll need an FAQ, but at present theres nothing to prevent the interpretation that it improves saves against AP0 weapons.

**Not Online!!!**

Sterling191 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
To my knowledge, are there even weapons with positive armour modifiers ?

There are not. However, nothing in the ruleset precludes them to my knowledge, and other abilities like this usually have a limiting statement ("to a maximum of AP0" for instance). It'll need an FAQ, but at present theres nothing to prevent the interpretation that it improves saves against AP0 weapons.

I ask because there might have been a precedent for the interaction.

**p5freak**

The stratagem says to worsen the AP, and AP+1 is worse than AP0. The stratagem doesnt mention a limit, like not worse than AP0.

**BaconCatBug**

It does indeed become AP+1, which would add 1 to your save roll. It doesn't "improve your save", it applies a modifier to the "To Save" roll.

BRB Page 181, "4. Saving Throw wrote:The player commanding the target unit then makes a saving throw by rolling a dice and modifying the roll by the Armour Penetration characteristic of the weapon that caused the damage. For example, if the weapon has an Armour Penetration of -1, then 1 is subtracted from the saving throw roll.

BRB Page 175, "Modifying Characteristics wrote:Note that, regardless of the source, characteristics of ‘-’ can never be modified, and the Strength, Toughness and Leadership characteristics of a model can never be modified below 1.

There is no restriction on how much the AP characteristic can be modified, and it is a characteristic.

BRB Page 175, "8. Weapons wrote:The weapons that a unit comes equipped with are described using a set of characteristics as follows:
[...]
Armour Penetration (AP): How good it is at getting through armour

**Gidun**

An additional question about Dour duty, how does it interact with the bastion warlord trait? Do the two together effectively make AP2 weapons AP-?

**BaconCatBug**

Gidun wrote:
An additional question about Dour duty, how does it interact with the bastion warlord trait? Do the two together effectively make AP2 weapons AP-?

I would say yes. Even if it's the opponents turn and he gets to pick the sequence, because Bastion only applies to attacks with an AP of -1, he can't apply that to the AP-2 attack first, he has to apply the Dour Duty effect first, which makes it an AP-1 attack and thus Bastion kicks in and changes that AP-1 to 0.

**JohnnyHell**

Bilge Rat wrote:
As far as I am aware, there is no precedent for AP values greater than zero. In the absence of other evidence I think the safest approach is to assume that they can't happen.

Agreed.

**doctortom**

p5freak wrote:
The stratagem says to worsen the AP, and AP+1 is worse than AP0. The stratagem doesnt mention a limit, like not worse than AP0.

Agreed. Given that they haven't established limits on what the AP can go go, you should go to an AP+1 unless GW FAQ's it.

**p5freak**

Gidun wrote:
An additional question about Dour duty, how does it interact with the bastion warlord trait? Do the two together effectively make AP2 weapons AP-?

The FAQ for faith&fury has confirmed that AP-2 weapons are treated as AP0.

Q: If the Dour Duty Stratagem is used on a unit that is within
6" of a model with the Bastion Warlord Trait, will enemy
attacks with an Armour Penetration characteristic of -2 that are
made against that unit be treated as AP -1 or AP 0?
A: The attacks will be treated as AP 0. The Dour Duty
Stratagem turns any attacks with AP-2 that are made
against that unit into AP -1, at which point the Bastion
Warlord Trait will cause them to be treated as AP 0.

Unfortunately nothing how dour duty interacts with AP0 weapons.