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Time to put on your elseworld hats my fellow Dakkaites, my main fluff question today is how the Great Crusade would have turned up if the Primarch's fate changed drastically from what happened in the main canon. What if instead of being scattered by the Dark Gods from the Emperor's laboratory, they were destroyed outright instead? The Emperor still has the main gene seed stock for each legion, and the preliminary subjects that were used as the basis for each legion as well. Given that the Great Crusade started without them anyways and each one was found progressively, it seems to me that not having Primarchs would have potentially worked in the Emperor's favour. Though undisputably useful as generals and warriors, I think with the Legions still being largely intact would have meant the Great Crusade would have still succeeded, if at greater cost to the Legions and taking a longer time. I know that expediency was the Emperor's main concern for the GC, hence his sanctioning of Lorgar, but I believe a big factor for that was because the Emperor was preparing for some form of the Heresy-event by rushing to expand the Imperium's borders as much as possible before ir happened. However, without the Primarchs, the Heresy may not have even happened, as the influence of Legion Commanders would have been significantly less compared to the inhuman charisma of a Primarch and none could ever personally challenge the Emperor when it came to either prestige or personal might. Furthermore, without Magnus f'ing up the Webway project, the Emperor would never have to be consigned to the Throne, and any smaller rebellion event would be easily put down by the Emperor himself.

Also, given that Lord Solar Macharius was able to conquer 1000 worlds in 7 years in his crusade, (arguably doing more than some Primarchs in the same time frame), I don't think Primarchs are absolutely essential to the success of the Great Crusade.

What do you guys think?

According to Master of Mankind, the Emperor considered the Primarchs essential to the Great Crusade. He told Ra that the Crusade would gave gotten bogged down without the Primarchs to lead it and never conquered enough of the Galaxy to establish the Imperium before some other race like Orks got ahead of them. The GC was operating on a tight schedule as humanity only has a narrow window of opportunity after the Fall of the Eldar to reunite all the lost worlds that had been cut off during the Age of Strife.

 Karhedron wrote:
According to Master of Mankind, the Emperor considered the Primarchs essential to the Great Crusade. He told Ra that the Crusade would gave gotten bogged down without the Primarchs to lead it and never conquered enough of the Galaxy to establish the Imperium before some other race like Orks got ahead of them. The GC was operating on a tight schedule as humanity only has a narrow window of opportunity after the Fall of the Eldar to reunite all the lost worlds that had been cut off during the Age of Strife.

I know some of the biggest threats included the Orks of the Gorro and Ullanor empire as well as Gharkul Blackfang. That alongside guys like the Rangdan would definitely have stalled the momentum of the GC, but do you think it would have stalled or stopped the GC outright? I still think that long term that the Horus Heresy did a significantly more harmful job of destroying what the Emperor sought to build by ruining his Webway project and restricting him from direct intervention. I feel like so far none of the prior threats would have done the same. At worst, it seems like the Imperium would be maybe a quarter or third smaller than it is before the Heresy, which I think is ultimately worth it if the Emperor is able to follow through with his Webway Project plan.

The Emperor certainly thought so, but that doesn't mean we have to.

First, keep in mind that Marcharius didn't actually succeed in holding the worlds he conquered, I don't think he is a valid comparison. Furthermore, Erebus still would have gone traitor, he would have turned 1st captains to his side, there would still be a heresy. Ahriman might have even learned about it and then pull a Magnus. It is said that he is almost as powerful as his primarch, so he might have succeeded in breaking the webway.

You are right that legion commanders would not have turned as many as a primarch, there would be more loyalists, but the imperium would have been smaller, thus giving the traitors an easier time getting to terra. Don't forget that the loyalists are without the fortifications built by Dorn during the siege, even if they traitors aren't lead by primarchs. Sanguinus also isn't there to fight greater daemons, nor would he be there to do the proverbial chink in the arch-traitor's armor.

Speaking of the arch-traitor, we don't know how much of Horus's power was warp given. If the reason he was able to challenge the emperor was mostly because of chaos blessing, Abaddon (I assume it will be him) would still be able to challenge the emperor as he will have the same boosts. But if he really needs a primarch base to challenge the emperor, then he then yeah, the traitors are going to lose unless the siege goes better for them.

Going into a more micro anaylsis, it is possible that the Tsons and Emperors children would stay small legions, but they either didn't participate in the siege or also suffered massive casualties at Prospero. Speaking of Prospero, I don't think it would go nearly as poorly for the Tsons, what with Magnus being near suicidal in the beginning of the siege. They would be lead by Ahriman, would set up proper defenses. He wouldn't be as depressed as Magnus after breaking the webway, based on Ahriman's reaction after casting the rubric. All in all, the heresy probably wouldn't have gone much differently. The biggest difference being that the imperium is in a worse state after the heresy because of its weaker starting point.

Maybe you could say that a imperium would force some cooperation with heretics in the face of a greater xeno threat, but that's wishful thinking. A more realistic possibility is another human empire (or several) would rise up in the regions untouched by the GC. Of course, as long as there is relatively little conflict between the empires (not much more than the number of inter-imperium wars), then things might not turn out much different given the decentralized nature of the imperium.

 Eipi10 wrote:
The Emperor certainly thought so, but that doesn't mean we have to.

First, keep in mind that Marcharius didn't actually succeed in holding the worlds he conquered, I don't think he is a valid comparison. Furthermore, Erebus still would have gone traitor, he would have turned 1st captains to his side, there would still be a heresy. Ahriman might have even learned about it and then pull a Magnus. It is said that he is almost as powerful as his primarch, so he might have succeeded in breaking the webway.

You are right that legion commanders would not have turned as many as a primarch, there would be more loyalists, but the imperium would have been smaller, thus giving the traitors an easier time getting to terra. Don't forget that the loyalists are without the fortifications built by Dorn during the siege, even if they traitors aren't lead by primarchs. Sanguinus also isn't there to fight greater daemons, nor would he be there to do the proverbial chink in the arch-traitor's armor.

Speaking of the arch-traitor, we don't know how much of Horus's power was warp given. If the reason he was able to challenge the emperor was mostly because of chaos blessing, Abaddon (I assume it will be him) would still be able to challenge the emperor as he will have the same boosts. But if he really needs a primarch base to challenge the emperor, then he then yeah, the traitors are going to lose unless the siege goes better for them.

Going into a more micro anaylsis, it is possible that the Tsons and Emperors children would stay small legions, but they either didn't participate in the siege or also suffered massive casualties at Prospero. Speaking of Prospero, I don't think it would go nearly as poorly for the Tsons, what with Magnus being near suicidal in the beginning of the siege. They would be lead by Ahriman, would set up proper defenses. He wouldn't be as depressed as Magnus after breaking the webway, based on Ahriman's reaction after casting the rubric. All in all, the heresy probably wouldn't have gone much differently. The biggest difference being that the imperium is in a worse state after the heresy because of its weaker starting point.

Maybe you could say that a imperium would force some cooperation with heretics in the face of a greater xeno threat, but that's wishful thinking. A more realistic possibility is another human empire (or several) would rise up in the regions untouched by the GC. Of course, as long as there is relatively little conflict between the empires (not much more than the number of inter-imperium wars), then things might not turn out much different given the decentralized nature of the imperium.

Interesting point regarding Macharius, its certainly valid that the worlds he conquered did break into rebellion after his death though that was largely due to being assassinated by the Inquisition and his 7 generals bickering over the territory they had gained, which I think would have been quickly quelled with the Emperor still walking amongst mankind. His example was more to show that conquering vast swathes of space was not a Primarch exclusive thing.

The Heresy would have drastically been different as far as who the players were and may not have started with the Word Bearers at all, given that now there aren't designated homeworlds for Legions (since there are no Primarchs to have homeworlds from), the people who were near automatically granted high legion and space marine-esque status like Erebus, Kor Phaeron, Luther and Amon now no longer exist, at least in terms of the legion hiearchy. On top of that, the destruction of Monarchia wouldn't have happened now that Lorgar didn't exist, giving them even less reason to rebel and they wouldn't have worshipped the Emperor as a God anyways due to the lack of influence from Lorgar's teachings. Old Terran recruits would have far more sway and the legion identities of many that changed with their Primarch would have not been altered. The War Hounds, for example, would not have had the Butcher's Nails and thus likely stayed loyal. Meanwhile, the Blood Angels, without the civilizing presence of Sanguinius, would have been censured or possibly be the ones that fell to Khorne during this timeline's version of the Heresy. More importantly, smaller legions like the Tsons may actually have been either wiped out altogether (since there was no solution to the flesh change until Magnus made the bargain with Tzzentch) and its incredibly unlikely that without Magnus' influence that they would have been so knee deep in sorcery and with pacts in the warp. This means its incredibly unlikely for Ahriman or anyone else to pull the same feat of ripping a hole in the webway, mainly because not only would they be unlikely to use said methods to begin with, but that event required Primarch level power of Magnus' psychic ability AND the borrowed power from Tzzentch himself. As strong as Ahriman is, he is not on Magnus' level. Similarly, without the direct geneseed source of Fulgrim, the Emperor's children would have been relegated to being the Emperor's envoys, and not a combat ready legion for a significant, if not indefinite amount of time, even into the new Heresy.

With regards to Abbadon, the biggest problem is that even with the blessings of the Chaos Gods, were he to somehow follow in his now non-existent father's footsteps, he simply isn't a match for the Emperor, It was a combination of Primarch physiology being an ideal vessel for the Chaos Gods and Horus being effectively used as a skin-suit by them that they were able to challenge the Emperor on the physical plane. I highly doubt that a regular Astartes, even of Abbadon's level, could hurt the Emperor at the same level of Horus,

 Grimskul wrote:
I know some of the biggest threats included the Orks of the Gorro and Ullanor empire as well as Gharkul Blackfang. That alongside guys like the Rangdan would definitely have stalled the momentum of the GC, but do you think it would have stalled or stopped the GC outright? I still think that long term that the Horus Heresy did a significantly more harmful job of destroying what the Emperor sought to build by ruining his Webway project and restricting him from direct intervention. I feel like so far none of the prior threats would have done the same. At worst, it seems like the Imperium would be maybe a quarter or third smaller than it is before the Heresy, which I think is ultimately worth it if the Emperor is able to follow through with his Webway Project plan.

Wasn't one ork warlord strangling the Emperor before he was killed by Horus? If the Emperor dies, then the whole project is kaput on the spot, no matter what else happens. Ditto for Rangdans, the FW book states it took intervention of five SM legions to beat them, including multiple primarchs (and one primarch possibly died or changed sides). Without primarchs, legions are smaller and less competently led - what if this time it takes at least ten, sustaining much greater losses, stalling crusade for decades everywhere?

Then there is the fact primarchs are not just SM commanders, they took control of everything else (titans, Imperial army, Mechanicum, etc). Can masters of the legions do that job just as efficiently? If not, more delays. No primarchs, no Ultramar, no technologically advanced worlds of multiple legions to boost conquest. Ultramar pretty much conquered biggest segmentum of them all alone, this would be 'third' smaller part just for the lack of Ultramarines, never mind the other 19 Legions.

Then you have Emperor needing to do everything alone. No Magnus, guess who gets to sit on the golden throne 24/7? No Dorn, who has to overlook Terra's defenses (even against as simple as kamikaze attack by someone attacked by Imperium)? No Ferrus/Perty, no technology they made (most of SM tanks and vehicles were made by these two in cooperation with other primarchs). No Mortarion, no one to do breaching most disgusting and dangerous war zones. Etc, etc, primarchs brought much more to table than just 'badass SM leader'.

Finally, it's not like there are no replacements for Horus. Mechanicum top guy could be one example (with Heresy being not protracted war, just sudden strike on Terra with Martian forces plus whatever Legions he manages to turn). Chaos might try turning Malcador, replace Horus with one of the perpetuals given similar power boost, or try corrupting custodes or Eldar (Eldrad could ruin webway perchaps just as efficiently as Magnus did given Chaotic boost). There are lots of possibilities there.

 Irbis wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I know some of the biggest threats included the Orks of the Gorro and Ullanor empire as well as Gharkul Blackfang. That alongside guys like the Rangdan would definitely have stalled the momentum of the GC, but do you think it would have stalled or stopped the GC outright? I still think that long term that the Horus Heresy did a significantly more harmful job of destroying what the Emperor sought to build by ruining his Webway project and restricting him from direct intervention. I feel like so far none of the prior threats would have done the same. At worst, it seems like the Imperium would be maybe a quarter or third smaller than it is before the Heresy, which I think is ultimately worth it if the Emperor is able to follow through with his Webway Project plan.

Wasn't one ork warlord strangling the Emperor before he was killed by Horus? If the Emperor dies, then the whole project is kaput on the spot, no matter what else happens. Ditto for Rangdans, the FW book states it took intervention of five SM legions to beat them, including multiple primarchs (and one primarch possibly died or changed sides). Without primarchs, legions are smaller and less competently led - what if this time it takes at least ten, sustaining much greater losses, stalling crusade for decades everywhere?

Then there is the fact primarchs are not just SM commanders, they took control of everything else (titans, Imperial army, Mechanicum, etc). Can masters of the legions do that job just as efficiently? If not, more delays. No primarchs, no Ultramar, no technologically advanced worlds of multiple legions to boost conquest. Ultramar pretty much conquered biggest segmentum of them all alone, this would be 'third' smaller part just for the lack of Ultramarines, never mind the other 19 Legions.

Then you have Emperor needing to do everything alone. No Magnus, guess who gets to sit on the golden throne 24/7? No Dorn, who has to overlook Terra's defenses (even against as simple as kamikaze attack by someone attacked by Imperium)? No Ferrus/Perty, no technology they made (most of SM tanks and vehicles were made by these two in cooperation with other primarchs). No Mortarion, no one to do breaching most disgusting and dangerous war zones. Etc, etc, primarchs brought much more to table than just 'badass SM leader'.

Finally, it's not like there are no replacements for Horus. Mechanicum top guy could be one example (with Heresy being not protracted war, just sudden strike on Terra with Martian forces plus whatever Legions he manages to turn). Chaos might try turning Malcador, replace Horus with one of the perpetuals given similar power boost, or try corrupting custodes or Eldar (Eldrad could ruin webway perchaps just as efficiently as Magnus did given Chaotic boost). There are lots of possibilities there.

There's some debate about that since they actually detail the Emperor's fight against the aforementioned Ork Warlord that "strangles" him in the short story "A Wolf of Ash and Fire" and how Horus intervenes. Given that its purely from Horus' POV, and since this was prior to the Emperor eventually bestowing the Warmaster title, it's argued that the Emperor was waiting to see if Horus would be trusted enough to save him in some way to confirm his decision to make him Warmaster. Since right after this the Emperor literally does the same "one-shot destroy your soul/entire being" that he would eventually use on Horus in front of him, and even prior to confronting the Ork Warlord he's basically teleporting all over the place one-shotting massive Orks in the short story.

Regarding the Rangdan, that's definitely one of the areas I'm not 100% sure how well the Imperium would do given their threat. IIRC the Emperor had to unlock the "Noctis Labyrinth" to finally defeat them, so it goes beyond having Primarchs to deal with them and as long as he had access to it, I'm fairly sure the Imperium would have won, if at greater losses.

The Emperor having to do everything by himself is significant, though tbf, there are a LOT of competent people outside of Primarchs. You have Constantin-Valdor, Macaldor himself was the one who set up the Administratum and several other Imperial organizations the Primarchs had little to do with that set up the war machine that Imperium has even to 40K. Like I said before, the Emperor didn't start with Primarchs yet already got far enough to several as they went on, so I feel like that while the Primarchs undoubtedly sped up the process, the GC would still largely been a success, even if it took longer. Also, him being on the throne 24/7 was because of Magnus' Folly, not because it was the way it was set up.

With regards to Horus replacements, I do think the Fabricator General is a good call, its likely he would have pulled something at somepoint and it would be interesting to see a Martian based heresy given their proximity to Earth. I think that's the big thing is when the Heresy occurs, if its during or after the Emperor retreats back to Terra to work on the Webway. Since if it Emperor is present on Earth then the Martians wouldn't be able to strike fast enough without raising red flags for loyalists on Mars. Custodes have been basically stated outright to be incorruptible ala Grey Knights, the Emperor was even able to seal Drachnyen (yes Abbadon's sword) into a Custodes and have him run into the Webway so he was out of the game for the War in the Webway. Eldrad is one of the least likely Eldar candidates, given that he was an acquaintaince of the Emepror at some point, and given how close this is to the Fall for the Eldar, none of them would have the capacity nor the will to contest the Emperor, especially when they of all people know the dangers of the Warp first hand. Malcador is yet another extremely unlikely candidate to turn against the Emperor, given that he was more or less his closest confidante besides the Custodes themselves (having actually known about the Emperor's grand vision of ushering humanity's psychic ability safely via the webway) and personally knows the threat that Chaos presents. Keep in mind the majority of Chaos followers are either a) ignorant of their true nature b) unknowingly corrupted via extended contact like Fulgrim was or c) was raised into worshipping them ala Colchis. All the candidates you presented don't match the criteria and I think whatever Chaos' choice would be, it would ultimately be unable to challenge the Emperor sufficiently for the Imperium to lose him to the Throne.

Well seeing as most of the primarchs are a bunch of petulent man children, barring one or two (vulkan, sangy, possibly angron) and incapable of acting like adults, the GC would've probably been a great success as you'd have normal men (well super soldiers) organising things in a proper military fashion. Erebus would've copped a bolt in the back for being a general douche, et voila, no heresy, galaxy conquered.

I could see the Emperor assigning the best of his custodes as commanders of the expeditionary fleets. They would still be supremely gifted generals/envoys/leaders/fighters and would probably be much more stable in their duties than many of the primarchs.

Yeah but they have their own jobs. The highest ranking officers of the legions were more than capable of commanding the campaigns.. They did it before the primarchs were found.

I just meant if people were looking for individuals possibly higher up than the marines who led their Legions pre-Primarchs. I meant that essentially, the best of the custodes could fill that niche of combat capability/leadership/strategy/diplomacy almost as well I think? Valdor seems to be often referred to as a peer to the Primarchs in pretty much every way.

The Emperor would have probably used the Custodes as generals, the Great Crusade would have achieved less in too long a time, but he also wouldn't have Magnus wreck the human webway project.

 Grimskul wrote:
I know some of the biggest threats included the Orks of the Gorro and Ullanor empire as well as Gharkul Blackfang. That alongside guys like the Rangdan would definitely have stalled the momentum of the GC, but do you think it would have stalled or stopped the GC outright?

Until the Fall, the Eldar basically kept the Orks under "pest control" to prevent them overrunning the Galaxy. The Great Crusade didn't just need to deal with Ork Empires like Ullanor, it needed to get ahead of the Orks and beat them down before they drowned the Galaxy in a green tide. Remember that the Orks are basically a biological weapon that has run out of control. Once they expand beyond a certain, no amount of crusading would have been able to get the green genie back into the bottle.