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Hi everybody. I just love my 80's punk / pop murder clowns but I can feel my opponent's dismay when those 4++ saves are rolled. Can you think of any rules that would better represent harlequin agility and holo suits? I would rather they are just harder to hit but stacks of negative modifiers seem to benefit an army like Orks that can't hit anyway.

I have some more ideas maybe:
Reduce ranges of weapons targeting harlequin units
Invuln. save is dependent on how far you moved the harlequin unit.

If you have any ideas I would love to hear them, just something to make harlequins a bit more fluffy and more fun for people on both sides of the table.

Thanks

Harlequins are squishy as heck.....finding a way to take the 4+ away is not a good start.

Mind of Cubozoan wrote:
Hi everybody. I just love my 80's punk / pop murder clowns but I can feel my opponent's dismay when those 4++ saves are rolled. Can you think of any rules that would better represent harlequin agility and holo suits? I would rather they are just harder to hit but stacks of negative modifiers seem to benefit an army like Orks that can't hit anyway.

I have some more ideas maybe:
Reduce ranges of weapons targeting harlequin units
Invuln. save is dependent on how far you moved the harlequin unit.

If you have any ideas I would love to hear them, just something to make harlequins a bit more fluffy and more fun for people on both sides of the table.

Thanks

I mean, Harlequins have always had invuln saves, since like 2nd edition. Complaining about a harlequin having an invuln is like complaining about a space marine getting 2 shots at 12" range or a 3+ armor save.

Limiting range is how Veil of Tears worked for multiple editions - If you had the power up, opponents had to roll 2D6, multiply by 2, and that was the actual range of their weapon. If they were out of range, the shots were lost. Personally, I prefer hit modifiers because it's less all-or-nothing.

Personally I think Harlequins' general level of durability is at about the best place it's been for a very long time. In previous editions, they felt ridiculously flimsy with just a 5++ and nothing else they died to a stiff breeze, and in other game systems like Kill Team and shadow war armageddon they've felt impossibly tough and not like glass cannons at all.

The problem I have currently with harlequins is they no longer feel like an army based on "tricks." It feels so, so, so deeply gakky to stack up a basic space marine squad to like -6 morale roll 2 take the highest and just have them go "oh, I get to reroll for ATSKNF...it's a 1, and my leadership is 8 base, so no those last 3 dudes in the squad don't run." The reward for being "Tricky" has gotten so small and minuscule and the effort you have to go through to set it up has gotten so laborious that it just makes much more sense now to blunt force everything with mass fusion guns, mass charges, mass mortal wounds from haywire.

If I could redesign one thing, it'd be a total overhaul of the weapons to reduce raw damage and increase tricksiness

Star Bolas: Remove the stupid GRENADE keyword, they're supposed to be a "Whole Squad has this or Whole Squad has that" weapon, having only one model able to fire them is beyond dumb. R12", Assault D3, S5 AP-1 D1. Special Rule: Last Laugh. If an enemy model ends a Fall Back move within 12" of a model with Star Bolas, it may immediately make a shooting attack against that model's unit with only its star bolas as if it were the shooting phase.

Shrieker Cannon (Shrieker Profile): Assault 1 R24" strength 1 Ap- D1. This weapon wounds non-VEHICLE models on a 2+. if this weapon successfully wounds its target, rather than making a save roll the target suffers 1 mortal wound, and the unit suffers -1 to its Leadership characteristic until the end of the turn. If the unit fails a morale test in this turn's morale phase, you may move that unit in your opponent's movement phase and they count as having made a Fall Back move even if they were not within 1" of enemy models.

Shrieker Cannon (Shuriken Profile): Remove the -2LD debuff from this profile. Instead, give it the following special rule: Black Humor. If an enemy unit suffers 1 or more unsaved wounds from Shrieker Cannons using this profile, friendly HARLEQUINS units reroll 1s to hit that unit until the end of this turn.

Harlequin's Kiss: change profile to S: user, AP-1, D1.

Add special rule: Kiss of Death. When a model is chosen to fight with a Harlequin's Kiss, they may instead choose to make only a single attack. If that attack hits, the target suffers 1 mortal wound. If no model is slain as a result of that mortal wound, roll a D6. On a 2+, the unit suffers an additional mortal wound. If no model is slain as a retult of that mortal wound, roll an additional D6. on a 3+, the unit suffers an additional mortal wound. (Add a rule to the Solitaire that allows him to give up only a single attack to make a Kiss of Death)

Neural Shredder: Pistol 2, R12", S8 AP-2 Dd3. When rolling to wound with this weapon, compare to the target's Ld stat rather than T.

Harlequin's Embrace. bring back its old role as an anti-horde special weapon. change profile to S+1 AP- D1. If the bearer completed a charge move this turn, change the profile to Sx2 AP- D1 and the bearer makes 1 bonus attack with this weapon for each enemy model within 1".

Power Sword: Change to Duellist's Blade. 9pts S: User AP-3 D1. At the beginning of the fight phase, the bearer of this weapon may choose to either Disarm or Riposte

Disarm: Roll a D6. On a 3+ you may choose 1 melee weapon on an enemy model within 1" of this model, that melee weapon may not be used for the duration of this fight phase.

Riposte: Any time this model makes a successful invulnerable save during this fight phase, it causes 1 mortal wound to the unit that caused it to make the save roll.

Give players more options rather than more raw power, add in rule mechanics that reward good positioning, remove the fact that basically all our weapon options are just in direct competition for one another for the exact same job.

Give them theor dreadnought back. Those looked radical!

the_scotsman wrote:


The problem I have currently with harlequins is they no longer feel like an army based on "tricks." It feels so, so, so deeply gakky to stack up a basic space marine squad to like -6 morale roll 2 take the highest and just have them go "oh, I get to reroll for ATSKNF...it's a 1, and my leadership is 8 base, so no those last 3 dudes in the squad don't run." The reward for being "Tricky" has gotten so small and minuscule and the effort you have to go through to set it up has gotten so laborious that it just makes much more sense now to blunt force everything with mass fusion guns, mass charges, mass mortal wounds from haywire.

I was looking into -ve leadership shenanigans as well, like you said it's just easier to spend the effort into killing more things.

I like all your rule ideas, thanks for taking the time. I especially like the harlequin's kiss rule idea.

Just a note on the neural shredder - the fluff says it completely ignores armour, but I like your unique wound roll idea - very cool.

Honestly if I were to redo the rules for harlequins I would roll them back into being a supplement of the eldar/dark eldar. They have far to few models to be a viable stand alone army.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Honestly if I were to redo the rules for harlequins I would roll them back into being a supplement of the eldar/dark eldar. They have far to few models to be a viable stand alone army.

As long as things like Custodes go with them.

I'd go the other way and make Troupe Masters back into sergeants and add great harlequins as hq and things like mimes.

Roll them into the Aeldari codex.
They shouldn't really have been a stand-alone army anyway.

pm713 wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Honestly if I were to redo the rules for harlequins I would roll them back into being a supplement of the eldar/dark eldar. They have far to few models to be a viable stand alone army.

As long as things like Custodes go with them.

I'd go the other way and make Troupe Masters back into sergeants and add great harlequins as hq and things like mimes.

There are a lot of factions that should not have been made stand alone armies, they should be consolidated into a larger book.

i like Harlies and they are not overpowered. tournament results are not showing tons of Harliquin top table finishes. Also of note... Holofields, in theory they are creating images of the ship in other place/ trying to cloak theirs perhaps. even assuming they project an exact image of thier ship next to it there is then a 50% chance you shoot the wrong image... that is a 4+... it checks out.

On riposte, I would change the wording so that if they make the invul save, to roll a D6. On a 6, they deal 1 mortal wound. That way they don’t tear up high attack enemies (such as CSM berserkers). May have certain models (Solitaire?) have a higher chance of riposte (5+?) and/or a stratagem that increases the likelihood of a successful riposte).

 iGuy91 wrote:
Roll them into the Aeldari codex.
They shouldn't really have been a stand-alone army anyway.

Agreed. That is their issue. They are actually pretty absurd once they get into melle with a troop master. They just don't have the ability to kill back line units and it is back line units that murder them.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Holofields, in theory they are creating images of the ship in other place/ trying to cloak theirs perhaps. even assuming they project an exact image of thier ship next to it there is then a 50% chance you shoot the wrong image... that is a 4+... it checks out.

From the wiki:
'A Holo-Suit or dathedi (meaning "between colours" in the Aeldari Lexicon) is the trademark psychically activated bodysuit worn exclusively by the enigmatic Aeldari Harlequins in place of the thick armour plates used by less advanced races. In battle, these Holo-Suits transform the Harlequins into dazzling blurs, their outlines exploding into blizzards of light that leave the foe's aim confounded and their thoughts bewildered.

The device incorporates a programmable Holo-Field that breaks down the wearer's profile into a fractal lightstorm as they move; the faster they travel, the more pronounced the effect. So it is that a charging Harlequin appears as nothing more than an indistinct, prismatic storm that is nigh-on impossible to hit, allowing them to simply avoid blows that would otherwise lay them low.

When a Harlequin Player stops moving his image coalesces back together into a solid image like the pieces of a jigsaw. It is for this reason that Holo-Suits are also known as a "jigsaw" or "domino fields". When the Harlequin stops moving the suit mimics the nearby terrain so that he seems to phase out of view.'

I would say that if the unit moves it gets -1 to hit, if advances its -2
If didn't move and they are in cover they can't be targeted unless closest unit

These rules would make sense to me but unfortunately might not be as good as a 4++

I am going to work on some additional spells for the shadowseer, something like 'replace smite with one of these spells'. Also something like a CP system (or just make them strategems) where you select dances for each unit to perform. These stay with the unit the whole round. Some will make their normal swords better, some will confuse the enemy, stop enemy falling back etc. I was going to ditch the 4++ save and instead each dance will be a trade-off between evasive and fight phase bonuses. Once I've thought of some I will post them. I guess a bit like the old wood elf wardancers in warhammer.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Roll them into the Aeldari codex.
They shouldn't really have been a stand-alone army anyway.

I suppose because I play smaller games I want my rules to be less generic and more fluffy, if they were rolled into another book I fear they would lose even more flavour.

I agree they shouldn't be played as a larger force but having some rules to include into another army is okay with me.

Mind of Cubozoan wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Holofields, in theory they are creating images of the ship in other place/ trying to cloak theirs perhaps. even assuming they project an exact image of thier ship next to it there is then a 50% chance you shoot the wrong image... that is a 4+... it checks out.

From the wiki:
'A Holo-Suit or dathedi (meaning "between colours" in the Aeldari Lexicon) is the trademark psychically activated bodysuit worn exclusively by the enigmatic Aeldari Harlequins in place of the thick armour plates used by less advanced races. In battle, these Holo-Suits transform the Harlequins into dazzling blurs, their outlines exploding into blizzards of light that leave the foe's aim confounded and their thoughts bewildered.

The device incorporates a programmable Holo-Field that breaks down the wearer's profile into a fractal lightstorm as they move; the faster they travel, the more pronounced the effect. So it is that a charging Harlequin appears as nothing more than an indistinct, prismatic storm that is nigh-on impossible to hit, allowing them to simply avoid blows that would otherwise lay them low.

When a Harlequin Player stops moving his image coalesces back together into a solid image like the pieces of a jigsaw. It is for this reason that Holo-Suits are also known as a "jigsaw" or "domino fields". When the Harlequin stops moving the suit mimics the nearby terrain so that he seems to phase out of view.'

I would say that if the unit moves it gets -1 to hit, if advances its -2
If didn't move and they are in cover they can't be targeted unless closest unit

These rules would make sense to me but unfortunately might not be as good as a 4++

I am going to work on some additional spells for the shadowseer, something like 'replace smite with one of these spells'. Also something like a CP system (or just make them strategems) where you select dances for each unit to perform. These stay with the unit the whole round. Some will make their normal swords better, some will confuse the enemy, stop enemy falling back etc. I was going to ditch the 4++ save and instead each dance will be a trade-off between evasive and fight phase bonuses. Once I've thought of some I will post them. I guess a bit like the old wood elf wardancers in warhammer.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Roll them into the Aeldari codex.
They shouldn't really have been a stand-alone army anyway.

I suppose because I play smaller games I want my rules to be less generic and more fluffy, if they were rolled into another book I fear they would lose even more flavour.

I agree they shouldn't be played as a larger force but having some rules to include into another army is okay with me.

so a mist of indistinguishabel light coming at you that becomes close to invisible when stopped is a -1 to hit? seems liek from the description 4++ inv is pretty tame compared to what the war gear does. I am always curious how people want to many nerfs to armies that are not goidn well. takign a 4++ from harlies and replacing that with a -1 hit would take them from mediocre to terrible.

Mind of Cubozoan wrote:


Star Bolas: Remove the stupid GRENADE keyword, they're supposed to be a "Whole Squad has this or Whole Squad has that" weapon, having only one model able to fire them is beyond dumb. R12", Assault D3, S5 AP-1 D1. Special Rule: Last Laugh. If an enemy model ends a Fall Back move within 12" of a model with Star Bolas, it may immediately make a shooting attack against that model's unit with only its star bolas as if it were the shooting phase.

Harlequin's Kiss: change profile to S: user, AP-1, D1.

Add special rule: Kiss of Death. When a model is chosen to fight with a Harlequin's Kiss, they may instead choose to make only a single attack. If that attack hits, the target suffers 1 mortal wound. If no model is slain as a result of that mortal wound, roll a D6. On a 2+, the unit suffers an additional mortal wound. If no model is slain as a retult of that mortal wound, roll an additional D6. on a 3+, the unit suffers an additional mortal wound. (Add a rule to the Solitaire that allows him to give up only a single attack to make a Kiss of Death)

Overall I like your suggestions. A little too mortal wound happy imo, but a lot of options.

For these two:
STAR BOLAS: I'd change them to be along the lines of:
"A unit shot by a Star Bola last turn can only fall back on a X+ (thinking 5+)"

Gives them a utility ability. And can help keep your units safe from shooting as with Rising Crescendo, being in melee doesnt
doesn't really affect you.

HARLEQUINS KISS: that change is way too strong. 6 dudes with a kiss:
4 hits, 4MW,
2+ for another: 3 MW
3+ for another: 2 MW

That's 9MW dropped with no defense. It's absolutely killer on bigger models.

Maybe if it only procs on non VEHICLES / non MONSTERS
Or something a little softer.

Or it becomes a 1 per X models weapon

@G00fySmiley, I just felt that my suggestion fitted the fluff quite well but you are right, it's not powerful enough.


Maybe the 4++ save is the only workable idea after all

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Mind of Cubozoan wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Holofields, in theory they are creating images of the ship in other place/ trying to cloak theirs perhaps. even assuming they project an exact image of thier ship next to it there is then a 50% chance you shoot the wrong image... that is a 4+... it checks out.

From the wiki:
'A Holo-Suit or dathedi (meaning "between colours" in the Aeldari Lexicon) is the trademark psychically activated bodysuit worn exclusively by the enigmatic Aeldari Harlequins in place of the thick armour plates used by less advanced races. In battle, these Holo-Suits transform the Harlequins into dazzling blurs, their outlines exploding into blizzards of light that leave the foe's aim confounded and their thoughts bewildered.

The device incorporates a programmable Holo-Field that breaks down the wearer's profile into a fractal lightstorm as they move; the faster they travel, the more pronounced the effect. So it is that a charging Harlequin appears as nothing more than an indistinct, prismatic storm that is nigh-on impossible to hit, allowing them to simply avoid blows that would otherwise lay them low.

When a Harlequin Player stops moving his image coalesces back together into a solid image like the pieces of a jigsaw. It is for this reason that Holo-Suits are also known as a "jigsaw" or "domino fields". When the Harlequin stops moving the suit mimics the nearby terrain so that he seems to phase out of view.'

I would say that if the unit moves it gets -1 to hit, if advances its -2
If didn't move and they are in cover they can't be targeted unless closest unit

These rules would make sense to me but unfortunately might not be as good as a 4++

I am going to work on some additional spells for the shadowseer, something like 'replace smite with one of these spells'. Also something like a CP system (or just make them strategems) where you select dances for each unit to perform. These stay with the unit the whole round. Some will make their normal swords better, some will confuse the enemy, stop enemy falling back etc. I was going to ditch the 4++ save and instead each dance will be a trade-off between evasive and fight phase bonuses. Once I've thought of some I will post them. I guess a bit like the old wood elf wardancers in warhammer.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Roll them into the Aeldari codex.
They shouldn't really have been a stand-alone army anyway.

I suppose because I play smaller games I want my rules to be less generic and more fluffy, if they were rolled into another book I fear they would lose even more flavour.

I agree they shouldn't be played as a larger force but having some rules to include into another army is okay with me.

so a mist of indistinguishabel light coming at you that becomes close to invisible when stopped is a -1 to hit? seems liek from the description 4++ inv is pretty tame compared to what the war gear does. I am always curious how people want to many nerfs to armies that are not goidn well. takign a 4++ from harlies and replacing that with a -1 hit would take them from mediocre to terrible.

What about bombs? area effect. slightly concealing your true positions would have 0 effect vs a 30 foot diameter explosion.

I agree that harlequins need access to more units - wraithlords and support weapon variants would be my choice, as relying on Haywire Cannons and Fusion Pistols for anti-tank really seems inadequate.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Mind of Cubozoan wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Holofields, in theory they are creating images of the ship in other place/ trying to cloak theirs perhaps. even assuming they project an exact image of thier ship next to it there is then a 50% chance you shoot the wrong image... that is a 4+... it checks out.

From the wiki:
'A Holo-Suit or dathedi (meaning "between colours" in the Aeldari Lexicon) is the trademark psychically activated bodysuit worn exclusively by the enigmatic Aeldari Harlequins in place of the thick armour plates used by less advanced races. In battle, these Holo-Suits transform the Harlequins into dazzling blurs, their outlines exploding into blizzards of light that leave the foe's aim confounded and their thoughts bewildered.

The device incorporates a programmable Holo-Field that breaks down the wearer's profile into a fractal lightstorm as they move; the faster they travel, the more pronounced the effect. So it is that a charging Harlequin appears as nothing more than an indistinct, prismatic storm that is nigh-on impossible to hit, allowing them to simply avoid blows that would otherwise lay them low.

When a Harlequin Player stops moving his image coalesces back together into a solid image like the pieces of a jigsaw. It is for this reason that Holo-Suits are also known as a "jigsaw" or "domino fields". When the Harlequin stops moving the suit mimics the nearby terrain so that he seems to phase out of view.'

I would say that if the unit moves it gets -1 to hit, if advances its -2
If didn't move and they are in cover they can't be targeted unless closest unit

These rules would make sense to me but unfortunately might not be as good as a 4++

I am going to work on some additional spells for the shadowseer, something like 'replace smite with one of these spells'. Also something like a CP system (or just make them strategems) where you select dances for each unit to perform. These stay with the unit the whole round. Some will make their normal swords better, some will confuse the enemy, stop enemy falling back etc. I was going to ditch the 4++ save and instead each dance will be a trade-off between evasive and fight phase bonuses. Once I've thought of some I will post them. I guess a bit like the old wood elf wardancers in warhammer.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Roll them into the Aeldari codex.
They shouldn't really have been a stand-alone army anyway.

I suppose because I play smaller games I want my rules to be less generic and more fluffy, if they were rolled into another book I fear they would lose even more flavour.

I agree they shouldn't be played as a larger force but having some rules to include into another army is okay with me.

so a mist of indistinguishabel light coming at you that becomes close to invisible when stopped is a -1 to hit? seems liek from the description 4++ inv is pretty tame compared to what the war gear does. I am always curious how people want to many nerfs to armies that are not goidn well. takign a 4++ from harlies and replacing that with a -1 hit would take them from mediocre to terrible.

What about bombs? area effect. slightly concealing your true positions would have 0 effect vs a 30 foot diameter explosion.

In which case, neither the 4++ nor the -1-to-hit rules model it well.

However, I think in this case the problem is more that explosions don't model BS-based hit chances or to-hit-modifiers well.

As much as I hate the idea of such a rule. I think it would be a good way to represent it.

When you choose to shoot at a unit with holofeilds. Roll a d6. On a natural roll of a 1 (can not be rerolled) you can not shoot any weapons chosen to shoot the unit. I think this would give just enough extra survivability to quins that they might be viable.

 Xenomancers wrote:
As much as I hate the idea of such a rule. I think it would be a good way to represent it.

When you choose to shoot at a unit with holofeilds. Roll a d6. On a natural roll of a 1 (can not be rerolled) you can not shoot any weapons chosen to shoot the unit. I think this would give just enough extra survivability to quins that they might be viable.

So replace their 4++ with a 6++, but roll it before shooting? Isn't that a massive nerf to durability?

Bharring wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
As much as I hate the idea of such a rule. I think it would be a good way to represent it.

When you choose to shoot at a unit with holofeilds. Roll a d6. On a natural roll of a 1 (can not be rerolled) you can not shoot any weapons chosen to shoot the unit. I think this would give just enough extra survivability to quins that they might be viable.

So replace their 4++ with a 6++, but roll it before shooting? Isn't that a massive nerf to durability?

Retain the 4++. 4++ is just to represent their speediness. The ability I just suggested is representing being fooled by the hologram and realizing you are about to shoot thin air - so shot is wasted.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Roll them into the Aeldari codex.
They shouldn't really have been a stand-alone army anyway.

Agreed. That is their issue. They are actually pretty absurd once they get into melle with a troop master. They just don't have the ability to kill back line units and it is back line units that murder them.

No, they were an army before most other ones out today, let them still be one, if BA/SW/DA/GK can have their own books so can Quins.

And they are actually NOT that good in melee for their points, Wyches deal equal damage for equal points and has double the wounds (well now that CA is making them 2pts cheaper they are equal to a wych unit now). They are only good b.c they have fly and every model gets a weapon, but you are play 18ppm for those 2 things.

The real issue is that 5+ of their units were taken away.


Now what i think about them? Well i main them, i play them in ITC tournaments as a Mono-Faction. The 4++ is trash, you have a 50/50 for a weapon to kill them T3 4+ save on a 12-18pt model is not very good, even if you have the Shadowseer need to make them -1 to be wounded it doesnt really help much, my Troupes ALWAYS gets blown off the table the instant they are able to be shot at.


In the past editions you couldnt even target them. I would give them 1 more army wide rule, "Shooting attacks can only target the closes unit as if a character, this does not negate the character Look out Sir rule, and a rule that ignore Look out sir also ignore this rule". So now they are basically "shoot the closest model unit" army which is cool.


I love my Harlequins and i am looking forward to this CA points drop for them, but i really want HQ on Bike, Mimes, redone rules for DJ's, Voidweavers, and maybe a Flyer for them, something super durable.

Edit: Spelling, i'm bad at it today.

Loafing wrote:

Mind of Cubozoan wrote:


Star Bolas: Remove the stupid GRENADE keyword, they're supposed to be a "Whole Squad has this or Whole Squad has that" weapon, having only one model able to fire them is beyond dumb. R12", Assault D3, S5 AP-1 D1. Special Rule: Last Laugh. If an enemy model ends a Fall Back move within 12" of a model with Star Bolas, it may immediately make a shooting attack against that model's unit with only its star bolas as if it were the shooting phase.

Harlequin's Kiss: change profile to S: user, AP-1, D1.

Add special rule: Kiss of Death. When a model is chosen to fight with a Harlequin's Kiss, they may instead choose to make only a single attack. If that attack hits, the target suffers 1 mortal wound. If no model is slain as a result of that mortal wound, roll a D6. On a 2+, the unit suffers an additional mortal wound. If no model is slain as a retult of that mortal wound, roll an additional D6. on a 3+, the unit suffers an additional mortal wound. (Add a rule to the Solitaire that allows him to give up only a single attack to make a Kiss of Death)

Overall I like your suggestions. A little too mortal wound happy imo, but a lot of options.

For these two:
STAR BOLAS: I'd change them to be along the lines of:
"A unit shot by a Star Bola last turn can only fall back on a X+ (thinking 5+)"

Gives them a utility ability. And can help keep your units safe from shooting as with Rising Crescendo, being in melee doesnt
doesn't really affect you.

HARLEQUINS KISS: that change is way too strong. 6 dudes with a kiss:
4 hits, 4MW,
2+ for another: 3 MW
3+ for another: 2 MW

That's 9MW dropped with no defense. It's absolutely killer on bigger models.

Maybe if it only procs on non VEHICLES / non MONSTERS
Or something a little softer.

Or it becomes a 1 per X models weapon

My rule already has it not proc on vehicles.

Bear in mind, current damage vs a T7 3+ monster model, 6 models with kisses: 5.3 unsaved wounds. New kiss vs current kiss loses 2 unsaved wounds vs GEQ. But, point taken - vs a monstrous enemy that might be a bit strong. These proposals were more ideas I was just throwing together to give a concept for how harlequins could return to being a "bag of tricks" style army with weapons that specialize them against a certain type of foe. At present, their 3 offensive profiles

S4 AP-3 D1
S5 AP-2 D1
S4 AP-1 Dd3

Are essentially identical versus most targets, and this has lead to one of those three options being purely better mathmatically all edition long, not to mention quite dull from a player perspective. And some, like the power sword on masters and the harlequins blade, basically are never worthwhile.

Also, it is worth noting there are several completely unexplored avenues in the harlequin backstory which could be made into new units. Automaton guards within the webway have been mentioned every time Harlequins are brought up, these are completely unexplored. Mimes are always mentioned because they used to exist. Cegorach is known to still be running around, there's no reason he couldn't lend a shard of power as a "Ctan/Yncarne" level being. Great Harlequins exist only as a 2CP captain aura. Multiple named characters like Motley and Iyanna exist in the lore and have no models.

Anyone who calls for a retraction of Harlequins back into the eldar/drukhari codex where they tooootally would not languish unused like they did for 6 editions who is also fine with getting rules Primaris Sqalutors and Primaris Snazzblasters and Lieutenants in Grazzle Armor (A Special Knife Armor that Shoots Knives!!!) I...just...do not understand you.

the_scotsman wrote:


Also, it is worth noting there are several completely unexplored avenues in the harlequin backstory which could be made into new units. Automaton guards within the webway have been mentioned every time Harlequins are brought up, these are completely unexplored.

Can anyone link to this fluff? It's because I was going to buy some slyvaneth dryads and say they were marionettes or what ever.

It's really annoying when people want to chime in how your army shouldn't exist anymore. Especially when they are so many small niche armies that got codexes and model range expansion like GSC and custodes. There are many of us out there that main harlequins, and there's no reason why they couldn't expand harlequins next time around, especially when they have units from the past that they lost. Or they could invent new stuff for them like they do for just about every faction now.

Shadowseers should have a 'No Overwatch' rule due to their mask messing with enemy minds (I think its Seers or was it a type we don't have anymore)

Some sort of no fallback rule

maybe access to some Eldar transports, starweavers are okay but bigger squad plus support would be nice

dancing dreads, just cos

The 4+ invul for harlies is mostly fine. You definitely don't want to make them less durable than they are now given how expensive they are.

That said, I really wish they felt more "tricky." The old veil of tears meant they were jedi mind tricking the enemy into not shooting at them at all until they were close enough to go for a charge. These days, their delivery systems are conventional enough to not feel very unique and inefficient enough to not be all that powerful. Want to zip across the table in a transport with -1 to hit to deliver a melee unit? Drukhari do it cheaper and arguably better, and craftworlders can sort of kind of do it with serpents. Want to pop out of the webway to go for a surprise charge? Go for it, but drukhari will be doing it with rerolls while craftworlders do it with bonuses to the charge roll.

My wishlist for harlies looks something like this:

* "Saedath" as harlequin doctrines; if your whole army is supernatural ninja clowns, you should be able to utilize their trickiest tricks. Give them a "devastator" doctrine that lets them sneak closer to the enemy without getting shot at as much. Give them tactical/assault doctrines that let them avoid melting to small arms fire and counter charges after they charge their first target. Call them the dawn/twilight/darkness saedath or something.

* I'd like to make the troupe weapons more bizarre again. I know they were kind of overly complicated in 7th, but they also had a lot of personality and pretty well-defined niches.

* "Figments" as troops(?) that are basically psychically-generated shadow clones. Basically illusory, non-killy clown clones that act as shield drones for infantry.

* Mimes as troops. Surprisingly not very killy, but unlock strats or other special abilities that let you "sabotage" enemy units pregame. Kind of like an updated Ranger Disruption mechanic.

* Haywires as stunny not killy guns. Like, I want the option to significantly nerf the shooting of a punisher Pask for a turn with my haywire instead of just using said haywire to chip away at wounds.

* Different ammo or gun options for the death jesters. They're a sniper who isn't very good at sniping, and their mortal wound generation is unreliable enough to make it pretty situationally useful. I'd rather be able to load a round into the chamber that actually threatens a 3+ wound character. Alternatively, just letting them take a bright lance would be a decent way to up our ranged anti-tank a little.

* I wish Solitaires were more survivable. Right now, they're good for their points, but they're very prone to dying against volume of attacks. Which means they're prone to dying against grunts rather than falling in epic duels. Kind of anticlimactic. Giving them a built in to-hit penalty or something might help. Maybe even a to-hit penalty that only works against non-characters.

* Void weavers should probably be squadronable and/or simply hit harder. "Cheap harlequins" don't really feel right; a voidweaver should probably be significantly more killy than a vyper, for instance. Plus, they're competing with bikes who currently kill vehicles really well (albeit at a high price tag). I feel like they should just go ahead and make the prism gun basically as strong as a regular prism cannon, albeit on a squishier platform. I'd also kind of like to see an all-haywire and all-vibrocannon variant.

* "Puppeteer" elites and their "marionette" constructs. Think wraith guard but controlled by the psychically-projected will of a puppet master instead of the souls of the dead. Should be less killy than troupers but more durable. Basically a distraction carnifex.

Basically, I want harlies to be all about debuffs and distractions and to-hit penalties. Your opponent should be shooting at puppets and shadows for the first half of the game. Harlequin ranged weapons should be shutting down the worst of the enemy shooting to protect the infantry who do all the real damage.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Roll them into the Aeldari codex.
They shouldn't really have been a stand-alone army anyway.

They've been a stand alone army list longer than most armies in 40k - including craftworld Eldar.

That GW has criminally under provisioned their list is not their fault.

When gw did that to dark angels and blood Angels, they Simply invented whole units out of nothing in later editions to justify it.

There are no mimes, master mimes, high avatars/great Harlequins, or wraith constructs/dreadnoughts that were available in the army in rogue trader.

The 2nd Ed codex added Harlequin jetbikers to the list, but removed mimes for some reason.

The current codex simply replaced jetbike Harlequins with those dualrider ones and vypers/venoms with the whatever they're called.

They didn't even add back units they took and didn't really invent anything new given the above.



Imo they need to be hard to hit with shooting and melee alongside their save.

See attachments for the 1st and 2nd Ed rules for the dathedi.

Something to consider in addition to the 2nd Ed rules, is that all units were at -1 to hit if the target moved 10"+. In that edition marines were move 4" and Eldar m5" (double for charge/run). Harlequins were m6". So with a dathedi they were -2 to hit when running and were a lot faster than everyone else.

They could also flip out of combat and caused fear.