Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2019/12/07 11:14:34
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
Are there any Loyalist Chapters that are descended from Primarchs that went traitor. Like maybe groups of Marines fethed off when there legions and Primarchs went Heretical during the Horus Heresy and formed there own Loyalist chapters? Or maybe even groups of Traitors who came back into the Light of the Emperor some way some how?
2019/12/07 11:39:07
Subject: Re:Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
it's a giant MAYBE. there are some chapters where it's suspected by the player base they might be loyalist traitor legion sucessors, but GW will never do more then give vague hints
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/12/07 12:06:26
Subject: Re:Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
BrianDavion wrote: it's a giant MAYBE. there are some chapters where it's suspected by the player base they might be loyalist traitor legion sucessors, but GW will never do more then give vague hints
Oh right. I think I remember hearing w theory that the Birds that steal everyones gak are a Thousand Sons descended chapter.
2019/12/07 12:18:53
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
30k knights errants were exactly what you’re after, they wear grey armor with no insignia; they were the predecessor to grey knights. In the new fluff with Cawl, he has made some marine marines with other gene seeds before they went traitors.
2019/12/07 12:19:35
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
There are also “Blackshields” Marines who just show up and pledge oaths to the Deathwatch. No questions asked about history, as long as you are willing to fight the Xenos. Lot of implications that some of these guys are from renegade chapters.
All the way back to traitor legionnaires? Maybe not. But maybe so. The universe is a big place.
Aren't the silver skulls supposed to be the loyal iron warriors that sided with Gulliman? Dantiochs army originally, but gulli said that they were Ultramarines to stop them being purged on the scouring.
Exactly. It might have/could have/has happened in several occasions, at several times, but the one thing they'll have in common is all of them will have hidden, forgotten, lied about or been lied to about their progenitors.
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
2019/12/07 18:13:44
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I don't see how there could be, as all the traitor geneseed would've been disposed of, so it seems like a bit of an in world conspiracy theory.
The deathwatch are like the French foreign legion, they don't really give a damn where you're from.
IIRC the gene vaults on terra still have stocks of traitor geneseed. They just are not supposed to use it. But kept in stasis, just in case.
Blood ravens are rumored descendants of the thousand sons, so Magnus the red.
Mantis warriors are theorized to actually be descendants of the night lords (Konrad Curze) instead of the white scars (Janghati Khan) as official records show.
Soul drinkers are theorized to be descendants of one of the lost primarchs. Same with the Black Templars.
...I think that’s it. Oh and Grey knights are descendants of most of the traitor legions but let’s not go there.
Edit: I’ll explain and add sources if asked, just to lazy at the moment. Most should have easily accessible theories online.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/07 18:50:25
His pattern of returning alive after being declared dead occurred often enough during Cain's career that the Munitorum made a special ruling that Ciaphas Cain is to never be considered dead, despite evidence to the contrary.
2019/12/07 19:30:59
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
In Dark Imperium, Guilliman suspects that Cawl has created Primaris chapters using geneseed from the traitor Primarchs. Cawl Inferior tries to argue that it was the Primarchs who fell and led their legions after them and that the geneseed itself was not fundamentally tainted.
Take a look at the "Sons of the Phoenix" chapter. Officially descended from Rogal Dorn but take one look at the name and livery.
Spoiler:
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star.
2019/12/08 02:39:25
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
Silver skulls are absolutely Loyalist iron warriors. They are the company of Captain Dantioch.
Soul drinkers with their preponderance of psykers could be 1000 sons as well.
Red Scorpions could be Emperor’s children successors with their large amount apothecaries and their obsession with pure gene seed could be emperor’s children.
Carcharodons are noted to have chimeric geneseed and are likely raven guard but could also have hints of night lords in them.
Sons of Antaeus are noted for their resilience and could be death guard successors.
The black rage is within us all. Lies offer no shield against the inevitable. You speak of donning the black of duty for the red of brotherhood; but it is the black of rage you shall wear when the darkness comes for you.
2019/12/08 08:04:05
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
Nevelon wrote:There are also “Blackshields” Marines who just show up and pledge oaths to the Deathwatch. No questions asked about history, as long as you are willing to fight the Xenos. Lot of implications that some of these guys are from renegade chapters.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:The deathwatch are like the French foreign legion, they don't really give a damn where you're from.
What if Abbadon joined them?
2019/12/08 10:29:06
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
Nevelon wrote:There are also “Blackshields” Marines who just show up and pledge oaths to the Deathwatch. No questions asked about history, as long as you are willing to fight the Xenos. Lot of implications that some of these guys are from renegade chapters.
queen_annes_revenge wrote:The deathwatch are like the French foreign legion, they don't really give a damn where you're from.
What if Abbadon joined them?
It’s a big galaxy, full of space for all sorts of stories.
I suspect that 99% of the time, obvious exceptions are going to be obvious. Enemy #1 comes to visit, you make an exception to your “no questions asked” policy and give him a bolt round to the face. But a desperate watchmaster with a gigantic hive fleet barreling down on his sector? He might figure that heresy can be removed, but if everything is stripped of its biomass, there is no return for the sector, and take the devil’s bargain. He might be executed for heresy for doing so, and know and do it anyway.
“I thought Black Legion was just the nickname for the brothers manning the Watch Station in sector Omnicron-7, honest! We all wear the same black here you know..."
If I understand correctly, in one of the 30k novels, when Sigismund is reprimanded by Dorn for trusting in Keeler's prophecies and as a result not leading an army into battle against Horus, Sigismund calls Dorn his father, and Dorn yells at him that Sigismund is not his son.
In another short story, Dorn confronts Malcador about the lost two Legions, and Malcador tells Dorn to speak the name of one of the lost Primarchs or Legions. Dorn realises that he can't remember, and it turns out the Malcador has put the memory of those Legions under a psychic memory lock. He also reveals that, when those Legions were judged/censored/etc etc, Guilliman and Dorn both said that the Marines of those Legions shouldn't be executed, and put to better use elsewhere.
Some people have taken that to mean that Sigismund wasn't actually an Imperial Fist Marine, and was actually a Space Marine from one of the Lost Legions who Dorn added into his own.
They/them
2019/12/08 19:36:59
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
If I understand correctly, in one of the 30k novels, when Sigismund is reprimanded by Dorn for trusting in Keeler's prophecies and as a result not leading an army into battle against Horus, Sigismund calls Dorn his father, and Dorn yells at him that Sigismund is not his son.
In another short story, Dorn confronts Malcador about the lost two Legions, and Malcador tells Dorn to speak the name of one of the lost Primarchs or Legions. Dorn realises that he can't remember, and it turns out the Malcador has put the memory of those Legions under a psychic memory lock. He also reveals that, when those Legions were judged/censored/etc etc, Guilliman and Dorn both said that the Marines of those Legions shouldn't be executed, and put to better use elsewhere.
Some people have taken that to mean that Sigismund wasn't actually an Imperial Fist Marine, and was actually a Space Marine from one of the Lost Legions who Dorn added into his own.
I think it's more that Dorn hates Sigismund for being a weak minded fool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/08 19:37:54
2019/12/08 23:25:14
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
If I understand correctly, in one of the 30k novels, when Sigismund is reprimanded by Dorn for trusting in Keeler's prophecies and as a result not leading an army into battle against Horus, Sigismund calls Dorn his father, and Dorn yells at him that Sigismund is not his son.
In another short story, Dorn confronts Malcador about the lost two Legions, and Malcador tells Dorn to speak the name of one of the lost Primarchs or Legions. Dorn realises that he can't remember, and it turns out the Malcador has put the memory of those Legions under a psychic memory lock. He also reveals that, when those Legions were judged/censored/etc etc, Guilliman and Dorn both said that the Marines of those Legions shouldn't be executed, and put to better use elsewhere.
Some people have taken that to mean that Sigismund wasn't actually an Imperial Fist Marine, and was actually a Space Marine from one of the Lost Legions who Dorn added into his own.
To me that sounds a lot more like Dorn saying "you've bought into superstitious rubbish and I'm disowning you" rather than him being from a different Legion. Especially considering I find it hard to believe that the Emperor would actually let that happen.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2019/12/09 13:22:44
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
If I understand correctly, in one of the 30k novels, when Sigismund is reprimanded by Dorn for trusting in Keeler's prophecies and as a result not leading an army into battle against Horus, Sigismund calls Dorn his father, and Dorn yells at him that Sigismund is not his son.
In another short story, Dorn confronts Malcador about the lost two Legions, and Malcador tells Dorn to speak the name of one of the lost Primarchs or Legions. Dorn realises that he can't remember, and it turns out the Malcador has put the memory of those Legions under a psychic memory lock. He also reveals that, when those Legions were judged/censored/etc etc, Guilliman and Dorn both said that the Marines of those Legions shouldn't be executed, and put to better use elsewhere.
Some people have taken that to mean that Sigismund wasn't actually an Imperial Fist Marine, and was actually a Space Marine from one of the Lost Legions who Dorn added into his own.
Didn't know about that bit of lore. Thx.
pm713 wrote: Especially considering I find it hard to believe that the Emperor would actually let that happen.
Seems pretty clear that he did.
Spoilers to "The Chamber at the End of Memory"
Spoiler:
"'I knew them.' Dorn took another step towards the doors, silently reaching for deep memories of the two brothers. Not all the primarchs could say they had breathed the same air as the lost sons, but Dorn was one of the few. He had been with them, if only for a while.
'Have you ever wondered why none speak of them?' the Sigillite replied. 'Of course, there is the censure over all who know of the lost never to talk openly of their existence. Still, in the absence of fact all men will speculate. But you do not. The primarchs never speak of their lost kinsmen in anything but the vaguest of terms. Have you ever wondered why that is?'
'As you said, we are forbidden to do so.'
'Even when you are beyond your father's sight? Even when no one would be aware of such a discussion? Ask yourself why your thoughts always slip over recall of the lost and pass by.' Malcador bowed his head. 'What were they called, Rogal?' The Sigillite seemed almost sorrowful as he asked him. 'Your vanished brethren. Tell me their names and their titles.'
Dorn tried to grasp that vague recollection, tried to frame the questions that gnawed at him, but once more his perfect eidetic recall failed him. He could only see the phantoms of those moments. Holding on to them was like trying to capture smoke between his fingers.
'Their names were…' his mighty voice faltered. His brow creased in frustration. 'They were…'
To his horror, Dorn realised that he did not know. The awareness was there; he could almost see the shape of the knowledge out on the far horizon of his thoughts. But it retreated from his every effort to see it clearly. Each time he attempted to frame a memory of the lost, it was like fighting a tidal wave. Everything else is clear, but they are ghosts in my mind.
The Imperial Fist was experiencing an impossibility. Every known instant of his life was open to him, as if they were pages of a great book.
But not those moments.
'Something has been done to me.' The beginnings of a new fury built in his chest, boiling at the realisation of such an affront. 'You are behind this!' Dorn whirled, drawing his chainblade in a glittering arc of lethal metal, bringing it to aim at Malcador's wizened, cloak-wreathed form. 'You shrouded my memories! You invaded my mind… For that I should cut you down!'
The Sigillite showed no reaction to the threat. 'Not just yours. Guilliman's, and the others who met them.' He let his words bed in. 'It is extremely difficult to extract a reminiscence,' Malcador went on. 'Even in an ordinary human. In a brain as complex and perfectly engineered as that of a primarch, the task becomes herculean. Imagine a tree in the earth, rising from a web of roots.
How would one remove that without disturbing a single atom of the soil? Memory cannot be cut and patched like a mnemonic spool. It exists as a holographic thing, in multiple dimensions. But it can be adjusted.'
'My father allowed that?' Dorn's sword did not waver.
'He did not stop you.'
'Stop me?' The primarch's eyes narrowed.
Malcador slowly moved back, out of the ornate sword's killing arc. 'The… loss of the Second and the Eleventh was such a wound upon us, and it threatened the ideals at the heart of the Great Crusade. It would have ruined all that we had built in the drive to reunite humanity, and drive off our enemies. Steps had to be taken.' He met Dorn's hard gaze. 'The legionaries they left behind, leaderless and forsaken, were too great a resource to be discarded out of hand. They did not share the fate of their fathers. You and Roboute argued in their favour, but you do not recall it.' Malcador nodded to himself. 'It fell to me to see that they were attuned to new circumstances.'
'You robbed them of their memories.'
'I granted them a mercy!' Malcador replied, his tone wounded. 'A second chance!'
'What mercy is there in a lie?' Dorn thundered.
'Ask yourself!' The Sigillite aimed the burning head of his staff in the primarch's direction. 'You wish to know the truth, Rogal? It is this - what I shrouded in you was done by your command! You told me to do it. You and Roboute conceived of the scheme and granted me permission!'
Dorn's scowl deepened. 'I would never countenance such a thing.'
'Untrue!' Malcador slammed the base of his staff into the floor, the crash of the metal punctuating the word. 'Such was the fate of the lost, that you willingly allowed it. To make safe that knowledge.'
Another denial formed in Dorn's throat, but he held it there. He put aside his anger and looked upon the possibility with detachment, with the cold eye of the Praetorian.
Would I have done such a thing? If the matter were grave enough, would I have been so pragmatic, so bloodless in my command?
Dorn instinctively knew the answer. There was no doubt that he would.
If the Imperium was put at risk, he would give his life for it. The cost of some memories, of a fraction of his honour, was indeed a price he would pay.
Malcador approached him, leaving his staff where it stood. One bony, long-fingered hand emerged from the voluminous sleeve of his monastic robes, and the Sigillite reached up to hold it before Dorn's face. Faint sparks of eldritch light glistened there.
'I will show you,' said the psyker. 'For this instant, I will let you remember. You will know why the lost must remain a mystery.'
Dorn closed his eyes and a glacial fire erupted behind them. Deep within him, a shadow briefly dissipated, stealing the breath from his throat."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/09 13:39:18
Tyranid fanboy.
Been around since 3rd edition.
2019/12/09 15:15:14
Subject: Re:Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
There must have been some loyalists in most if not all of the traitor legions, but they would have been purged as soon as possible by the traitors. Assuming enough of these marines survived, it's possible that they could be made into a chapter and branded Ultramarine successors for the official records (if there are any records), but that's a lot of hypotheticals...
If there are descendants of the Thousand Sons, shouldn't they have problems with the flesh change? Also, with all of them having nails in their brains, it's hard to imagine any World Eaters chilling out and staying loyal.
For the other traitor legions, I suppose it's possible that some stayed on the Emperor's side.
2019/12/09 16:11:11
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
BaconCatBug wrote:I think it's more that Dorn hates Sigismund for being a weak minded fool.
pm713 wrote:To me that sounds a lot more like Dorn saying "you've bought into superstitious rubbish and I'm disowning you" rather than him being from a different Legion. Especially considering I find it hard to believe that the Emperor would actually let that happen.
I'm sceptical myself of the theory that Sigismund isn't actually a "true" Imperial Fist, and I think it's definitely sensible to assume that Dorn could well just be saying "I'm disowning you".
However, given one of Dorn's quotes where he does disown Sigismund (something along the lines of "whatever you do in the future, you will still never be my son") and quotes from various people saying things along the lines of "Sigismund was always more of the Emperor's Champion than Dorn's", it lends credence to it. But I suppose that's part of the fun - there's reasons both for and against, and right now, it's perfectly valid to say that Sigismund could have been a Lost Legionary, or just a disowned son of Dorn.
But as the above excerpt says, it does seem that the Emperor was okay with letting the Astartes of the Lost Legions get reused elsewhere. Maybe the Word Bearers' idle banter about the Ultramarines only being so large because they took on extra forces from the Lost wasn't so devoid of truth.
They/them
2019/12/13 23:31:16
Subject: Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
Some good ones mentioned here. I also like to suspect that Flesh Tearers are from World Eaters.
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
2019/12/14 03:21:39
Subject: Re:Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
The Death Eagles may be from the Emperor's Children legion. Their original colors matched and the 34th Millennial of the Emperor's Children was loyalist and named "Death Eagles".
Tiennos wrote: There must have been some loyalists in most if not all of the traitor legions, but they would have been purged as soon as possible by the traitors. Assuming enough of these marines survived, it's possible that they could be made into a chapter and branded Ultramarine successors for the official records (if there are any records), but that's a lot of hypotheticals...
If there are descendants of the Thousand Sons, shouldn't they have problems with the flesh change? Also, with all of them having nails in their brains, it's hard to imagine any World Eaters chilling out and staying loyal.
For the other traitor legions, I suppose it's possible that some stayed on the Emperor's side.
The world eaters that have the nail implants have all been or end up being traitors, the ones refuse the implants end up being knights errant for malcador; 1ksons have different magical powers, some are able to use theirs to navigate a path to avoid the flesh change; the writers pretty much have a group of black sheeps from every traitorous legion being loyal(memorable ones being the ones on terra as a ambassador, or ones originated from terra, several were on assignment when their legion turned), and some loyal legion being traitors.(memorable ones are a group of white scars).
You can read upon their brief lore on lexcanium 40k, search for knights errant, then look at notable figures.
2019/12/14 07:27:47
Subject: Re:Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
It is also suspected that the high lords might have used traitor gene-seed when creating the 21st, cursed founding of space marine chapters. We know that many of those chapters ended up being a bit suspicious or even going full on traitor. Apparently most of it was due to tampering with the gene-seed, but using traitor gene-seed isn't hard to believe.
My armies:
vior'la sept 12k
Erik Morkai's great company 6k
dark mechanicus, the dearth of hope, 8k
rothwyr morwan's company 1,5k
Adeptus custodes 2k
AoS, The forgotten order, SE, 3k
2019/12/15 03:28:24
Subject: Re:Are there any Loyalist Chapters descended from Traitors Primarchs?
Wow. We are really slacking. It took a week and most of a page before we got to the DA=traitor bit? That should have been the 2nd-3rd post, within the 5th reply tops!
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
4k Points
Competition Index
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
vior'la sept 12k
Erik Morkai's great company 6k
rothwyr morwan's company 1,5k
That should have been the 2nd-3rd post, within the 5th reply tops! 