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Hello,

I would like to put a crazy little idea I'm considering out for discussion, as I'm still building towards my first army and have yet to play my first game. Therefore all my considerations are purely theoretical and lack practical experience. But maybe someone has tried something similar and could tell me if this has any chance of being worthwile:

Building an IG army I know that the most obvious choice for a countercharge or close combat unit are Bullgryns with Powermauls and your choice of shields, as the big boys are rather sturdy and put out a lot of damage. Yet they have their pricetag, take up a lot of places in a transport and can not profit from regimental doctrines or orders, which is a pity, since "fix bayonets" would be great on them.

So dreaming around a realized just how extremely cheap platoon commanders as potential carriers of power fists are. 20 points + the 8 for the power fist. They are definitly squishier than a Bullgryn with T3, W3, 5++, but then again they would all be protected by being characters and as Catachan they would have even more punch than a Bullgryn.
So I thought about this here:

Vanguard Detachment
HQ: Straken
Elites: 5 x Platoon Commander with power fist
Ministorum Priest

That's 250 points + the transport of your choice to get them where you need them. The idea would be to drive their transport as close to the target as possible, unload them as close as possible and then hopefully succeed in a lot of charges.
Each of the Platoon Commanders would have 3-5 (depending if Straken and the Priest are still alive) S8 Power fist attacks at WS 4+ per fight phase + another 3-5 if they survive into their next shooting phase where they can order themselves to "fix bayonets". That seems a lot of damage for a 28 points unit. And on top of that you would still have Strakens 6 attacks (with his own and the priest buff).

Could this be pulled off? I see that's very glas cannon like and they would definitly be kind of a throwaway unit, but then again, that's Astra militarum

Welcome to the game!

So first I would warn you of the rule of 3. Basically if its not a troop or a troop transport you cant take more than 3 of any single data sheet.

Having said that even if that was an option it's not a good one. Your best answer to cc is your guardsmen in my experience. What I typically do is constantly use the strat to keep consolidating 10 man infantry squads together to make 1 large blob. Then I use an astropath to cast a power to make the large blob immune to moral. If they get charged the officers have orders to have them fight again or shoot while in cc depending on your force. Either way guardsmen are gonna die, that's their real job lol. If you really want some cc punch there are ways but that's not the imperial guards thing, they swarm cheap infanty and use large tanks .

Rule of 3 would be the big issue here - assuming you're playing in a format that uses that rule.

As others have said, rule of 3 in competitive (and most casual) games. However it's not a huge deal as you want company commanders anyways, and commissars exist if you don't mind losing an attack (which depending on commissar, is either cheaper or more accurate)

I wouldn't build with it in mind as an offensive unit, but the basic idea is very sound for a countercharge thing to clean up your back line or support the infantry moving in. Think of it as an 8pt bonus to make your officers way more powerful, not a 28/38pt offensive unit and you've got the right idea. The cool thing is a lot of guard characters get exponentially more powerful as the buffs get stacked, but the downside is points and squishiness. At most, I'd consider a little "command squad" of straken, a CC, a priest, an ogryn bodyguard, and a pysker of some sort, since Primaris aren't terrible in melee. But keep in mind, this little death all's primary job is buffing your guardsmen and should be treated as such. It doesn't go off to kill stuff on its own unless it's absolutely necessary. They will fold to any serious melee unit Because you'll swing with one guy and the opponent will interupt and kill the rest. It works best finishing off say a riptide you've boxed in and shut it's overwatch off, or to kill a squad of marines or something.

I used to do the same thing with Priests, Bullgryns, and Lord Commissars toting Plasma pistols and Power Fists. That is a LOT of S7/S8 attacks, and even more on the charge. The Commissars are durable and able to make the charge most of the time, as are the Bullgryns. 3 max Bullgryn Squads backed up by Straken and a priest is a very successful Combo. Drop em out of a Valk and it's just downright scary.

A, I forgot about the rule of three. The intention of taking Platoon commanders over (Lord) comissars was mainly, that catachan powerfists are S8 instead of S6. And I imagine Straken to be quite difficult in maxing out the benefit of powerfists and not only basic guardsmen.

I may lack knowledge about the fight phase, but what do you mean by the opponent will interupt after the first guy attacked? I thought units that charged can go first, so at least in the round they charged, they should be able to get all their attacks out, before they are interrupted, wouldn't they?

So to modify that lets assume Straken, a Company Commander, three Platoon Commanders, a priest and a commissar, which would come down to 255 points if I'm not wrong. That's 20 S8 and 4 S6 powerfists + 6 x Strakens S7, Ap-1 D2 attacks.

IF(!) You manage to drive their transport up close, unload them close enough to have an easy charge and then charge the transport first to eat overwatch you should manage on average 11 wounds per fight phase against a T8, 3+ target like a tank or knight. Which seems to be quite good for the price tag.

And in return, if my math is not completely off a Castellan for example at full health would only kill 1-2 per fight phase due to their inv. (But most likely just fall back, I know.)

And every commander that survives till his next shooting phase could order himself to fix bayonets and fight uninterrupted in that phase before fighting again in the fight phase, right?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Fezzik: why Straken? I thought bullgryns don't profit from his buff?

It's a BRB stratagem that basically once you have chosen the first unit to fight he can spend CP to interrupt and choose a unit to fight.

In short it's a lot of points for a suicide attack squad. Plus each character has to eat overwatch on the charge until 1 makes it. Odds are not good even half of them make it into melee with a unit not already tied up.

Yeah... guess you are right. The idea seemed tempting but that feedback was what I asked for so thanks.

Pyroalchi wrote:
Yeah... guess you are right. The idea seemed tempting but that feedback was what I asked for so thanks.

Like I said, as a unit going into combat in a chimera ust to kill stuff it's a bad idea. But that same unit in the middle of an infantry line, consisting of units you were taking anyways to buff the infantry, and it's a great tool in the belt for weird situations in games. You should be running those models anyways to buff your infantry squads. If they're going to be there anyways, why not splurge 30 or so points to ensure the characters can pull their weight too?

The idea isn't flawed, just what you plan on doing with them. That unit in the center of 90 Catachans running up the table is a completely different beast.

I'm currently building a Tallarn force and want to keep the bulk of my infantry Tallarn, so Straken at least does not work. I concidered the decribed more as a small support detachments. But as you said: the priest is useful anyway and a couple of cheap additional officers don't hurt either.

Hell, why not throw in Sly Marbo, and his attacks which will wipe out most of a squad of anything troops.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Hell, why not throw in Sly Marbo, and his attacks which will wipe out most of a squad of anything troops.

Oh yes, he is real close combat beast, it will only take him 10 turns to kill 40 cultists

This type of tactic used to work well when valks allowed you to disembark and still move as it was a very reliable early charge, and the officer bomb would help hold enemy forces back from advancing into your main gun line.

If your going to give it a try, remember that a valk has a big enough capacity to add some chaff units in as well as the officers, like a plasma gun command squad or some crusaders. You have plenty of orders to give all your plasma gunners/officer pistols rerolls, and both the vehicle and spare bodies can eat overwatch. If anything survives the turn, you can use move move move to scatter the officers in all directions to make them painful to remove.