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Everyone loves to harp on and on about how shooty 8th is, how unbelievably shooty 7th was, and I never hear anything about before then. What generations were not shooty, and more slashy? Was there ever a generation that was balanced? If so, why?

What was the heaviest psychic iteration?

I just always wondered what it would look like when its better to melee than shoot.

5th was very slashy stabby friendly, disembark an charge from assault vehicles and open topped, auto charge range, no Overwatch, initiative meaning assaulty armies almost always swung first, large charge bonuses. Losing cc against most dedicated melee units basically guaranteed your unit would be wiped out.

I would not call it a balanced edition.

Even with all that shooting was still stronger than melee in 5th, the edition that gave us the Leafblower list and Long Fang spam.

I think 2nd edition is generally considered the height of psychic shenanigans. Mind you, the game was much smaller.

This is the most melee friendly edition actually IMO. Charging units always go first. Lots of ignore overwatch. Insane numbers of attacks. Multi charging - pile ins - fight again...

I've only played since 4th, but I wouldn't call any edition from 4E to 8E and "non-shooty" edition by any stretch. As above, 5th was melee-friendly, but it was still a shooty edition

And really, it shouldn't be a melee game. It exists in the far future where there is some bonkers tech. Shooting is far more realistic.
However, 40K isn't very realistic so melee should be at least viable

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is the most melee friendly edition actually IMO. Charging units always go first. Lots of ignore overwatch. Insane numbers of attacks. Multi charging - pile ins - fight again...

I agree

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Forgive my patchy memory, but I certainly remember games in 3rd being more assault heavy than those now.
Shooting output was less back then and I think you had to take a leadership test to target a unit other than the closest one with no splitting fire. You didn't have things like overwatch, moving out of combat for free or random charge distances either.

Assult was really deadly too, even though things had less attacks. You had to resolve combat at the end of the turn like WHFB and if you ran and got caught in pursuit the whole unit was instantly killed!

Some units like hormagaunts and aspect warriors still had pretty good movement and could fleet of foot/claw in the shooting phase to cover even more distance.
I remember transports being pretty widely used to throw units up the board too, as I think you could move full movement and assult out of them.
Things got less fun when you had a Chaos Lords or Dark Eldar Archaons which could hide really easily and blend everything in assault though

I'm getting misty eyed at all this reminising, think I'll leave it there

2nd edition.

From sustained fire dice and jam shenanigans to OP psykers and Howling Banshees/ Genestealers/ Bikes/ Jetbikes, it was a very CQC edition.

Shooting wasn't bad though. Remember killing off an entire Tyranid army as Eldar in a turn and a half back then

For the people saying 8th is melee friendly, there are just as many rules that invalidate the melee friendly rules. Auspex scan, Interrupts, negatives to hit in melee.

What I think would make the assault phase worlds better is a penalty to leaving melee. Add in attacks of opportunity.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
For the people saying 8th is melee friendly, there are just as many rules that invalidate the melee friendly rules. Auspex scan, Interrupts, negatives to hit in melee.

What I think would make the assault phase worlds better is a penalty to leaving melee. Add in attacks of opportunity.

There is a penalty for leaving combat - you can't advance and you can't shoot. Which sucks if you were actually trying to escape a unit or defend yourself. Personally I think Advancing and charging should be universally allowed for ALL units (minus the ones that can't normally charge units anyways) It is in fact pretty dumb that a unit wouldn't be trying as hard as they can to run into a melee. I think the idea of "locking a unit in melee" just needs to die. No one just stands there getting hacked with swords.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Everyone loves to harp on and on about how shooty 8th is, how unbelievably shooty 7th was, and I never hear anything about before then. What generations were not shooty, and more slashy? Was there ever a generation that was balanced? If so, why?

What was the heaviest psychic iteration?

I just always wondered what it would look like when its better to melee than shoot.

3rd edition - the original "Rhino Rush". Blood Angels Rhinos would Black Rage 6" forward, then move 12", then disembark Marines 3", who would then in turn move another 6" and charge another 6". No fall back, so anything they connected with was out of the game, and they could use a rule called Sweeping Advance to engage another unit if they wiped out the first one they connected with, thus staying perpetually locked in combat and untargetable.

It's been 20 years so my memory may be a bit fuzzy one some of the finer details.

I have fond* memories of Chaos Raptors and tooled up melee characters destroying enemy armies single-handedly back in 2nd. You couldn't leave combat in those days so the trick was to get just enough into combat that you'd maul an enemy unit on your turn without destroying them and then finish them off in their melee phase so they couldn't shoot you. Then rinse and repeat ln your turn because no shooty list could move fast enough to get out of the 18" threat range of a jump-pack model.

* And by 'fond' I mean 'totally not fond'.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
For the people saying 8th is melee friendly, there are just as many rules that invalidate the melee friendly rules. Auspex scan, Interrupts, negatives to hit in melee.

What I think would make the assault phase worlds better is a penalty to leaving melee. Add in attacks of opportunity.

There is a penalty for leaving combat - you can't advance and you can't shoot. Which sucks if you were actually trying to escape a unit or defend yourself. Personally I think Advancing and charging should be universally allowed for ALL units (minus the ones that can't normally charge units anyways) It is in fact pretty dumb that a unit wouldn't be trying as hard as they can to run into a melee. I think the idea of "locking a unit in melee" just needs to die. No one just stands there getting hacked with swords.

I think both are valid solutions.
Maybe we could introduce Overwatch-style attacks on units that fall back AND allow units to Advance and Charge (at -1 to hit unless you have a special rule).

Both of those combined would be enough to make melee heavy armies at least viable, if not top tier

-

3rd edition was the most favourable for close combat, mostly because shooting was so weak. Let's compare some editions for a funny scenario; a 10-man Tactical Squad with a Flamer and Missile Launcher shoot at a Hive Tyrant.

Current (8th edition):
20 shots @ 24" range, wounding on 5+, saving on 4+ (we'll assume Tactical Doctrine is active)
d6 shots @ 8" range, wounding on 5+, saving on 3+
1 shot @ 48" range, wounding on 3+, saving on 4+, d6 damage
avg = 2.22+0.38+0.78 = 3.38 wounds to a model with 12 wound. Roughly 28% dead.

Note, these numbers spike with reroll 1's that are pretty easily available.

Mid-Way (5th edition):
20 shots @ 18" range (move 6" + 12" rapid fire), wounding on 6+, saving on 3+
1 hit @ ~7.5" range, wounding on 6+, saving on 3+
1 shot @ 48" range but no shots if moved, wounding on 2+, saving on 5+
avg = 0.74+0.06+0.37 = 1.17 wounds to a model with 4 wounds. Roughly 29% dead.

"Most CC Friendly" edition (3rd edition):
10 shots at 12" range if moved, 20 shots at 12" if you didn't move or 10 shots at 24" if you didn't move, so assuming 10 shots, wounding on 6+, saving on 3+
1 hit @ ~7.5" range, wounding on 6+, saving on 3+
1 shot @ 48" range but nos hots if moved, wounding on 2+, saving on 5+
avg = 0.37+0.06+0.37 = 0.8 wounds to a model with 4 wounds. Roughly 20% dead.


By this hilariously simplified way of looking at things, we can say that 5th may have been the most lethal to close combat beasts, though 3rd definitely stands out as being the most friendly, which is what my memory tells me. It tells me that there wasn't a lot of good shooting in that edition, with lots of penalties to shooting for doing anything, and few penalties to close combat. A big model with lots of high strength attacks that sliced through armour was like having a bunch of Lascannons in close combat - it took some work to get there, but when you did you chopped stuff up. As editions went on, shooting got stronger and stronger, while CC remained the same.

In 8th, shooting is some of the strongest it's ever been, but close combat is DIFFERENT, and that's the big take-away. Shooting is the ideal method of removing your opponent's models from the board, but close combat gives you more control over where your opponent moves and scores, so it's doing something that isn't directly compared. For that reason, I love close combat in 8th even more than in 3rd, and before this edition, 3rd was my favourite edition.

 Yarium wrote:
3rd edition

Hmm well I can't agree, because my main army is Tau and Tau shooting in 3rd was the best it ever was for the models that existed in 3rd and still exist today. 4th was pretty similar though, markerlights got better but Tau got worse BS in some places so it's a wash.

2nd edition, depending on your army/table.

A world where re-rolls did not exist and you had a heap of modifiers, etc.

I saw a lot of games in 3rd/4th won through combat - mostly due to the rules for Sweeping Advance.

Being able to massacre one unit and then jump into another one (denying the opponent any chance to shoot at the assaulting unit in his turn) decided many a game in my time.

 vipoid wrote:
I saw a lot of games in 3rd/4th won through combat - mostly due to the rules for Sweeping Advance.

Being able to massacre one unit and then jump into another one (denying the opponent any chance to shoot at the assaulting unit in his turn) decided many a game in my time.

Definitely agree - the amount of times people would hope to kill just enough but leave 1 or 2 alive in their turn, finish them in the opponents turn and then charge again

3rd was most favourable to melee IMO. Rhino Rush and Sweeping Advance made close combat easy to initiate and deadly once you got there. In some ways it felt like melee armies were still being punished for Rhino Rush for the next 3 editions.

The thing you have to remember though is that everything in 3rd edition was less shooty too, Removing entire units of Marines was much more difficult and it wasn't hugely uncommon to have a first turn where nothing died at all. Games felt much more like they had a flow to them and there was a much greater sense of a battle with twists and turns. The problem with the game state as it is now is the ridiculous lethality of everything makes units that don't just delete enemy units pretty useless in general and the ability to fall back from combat removes most of the tactical options from melee armies. Charging to tie the enemy down was a perfectly valid tactic in previous editions whereas now it's just a minor inconvenience and a melee unit that doesn't kill tis target in one turn won't get a second chance.

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is the most melee friendly edition actually IMO. Charging units always go first. Lots of ignore overwatch. Insane numbers of attacks. Multi charging - pile ins - fight again...

I agree

-

Me too, assault is probably the most powerful phase of the game rn

 godardc wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is the most melee friendly edition actually IMO. Charging units always go first. Lots of ignore overwatch. Insane numbers of attacks. Multi charging - pile ins - fight again...

I agree

-

Me too, assault is probably the most powerful phase of the game rn

Most powerful? Maybe if you ever get there.. Assault is far too unreliable compared to the shooting phase - 8th is all about shooting and cheap screens to stop those assaults from happening until you're ready.

Assault has always been powerful. The problem is getting there. It used to be high risk/high reward. *IF* you made it, there was a very real chance of just wiping out your foe, or at least being safe while you finished butchering him.

Not it’s probably as hard as it’s ever been to make it into combat, you you no longer are as safe once you get there.

I think 2nd or 3rd might have been peak choppy. It’s been downhil constantly since then. Sure, invulnerable death-balls in 6-7th were a thing, but could only really be in one place at a time. Shooting could erase anything on the table.

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is the most melee friendly edition actually IMO. Charging units always go first. Lots of ignore overwatch. Insane numbers of attacks. Multi charging - pile ins - fight again...

On it's own, this. Melee has never been more dangerous than it is now.

Comparatively when placed next to shooting though, not really. 3rd was probably the height of melee 'danger' in comparison to shooting. When at-initiative weapons like powerswords ignored all armor saves, you could pile-in to additional combats, and there generally just weren't enough guns on the table to reliably put down multiple melee threats.

Keep in mind that, back in 3rd, a now meme-tastic SM assault squad was actually dangerous, and could chew through several units + take out tanks.

Surely release version of 3rd ed, especially as that means no Tau.

nareik wrote:
Surely release version of 3rd ed, especially as that means no Tau.

Tau had a really rough time of it in 3e/4e because of people consolidating into fresh combats; one melee unit touching your line was more than capable of rolling up the whole thing without ever getting shot. Moreover pretty much all the iconic Tau shenanigans of today (cover-ignoring Markerlights, overarmed big battlesuits, powerful overwatch, the ability to walk out of combat and still shoot, drones taking hits for important people...) didn't really come into their own until 6e, before then the Tau were mostly a sideshow.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

nareik wrote:
Surely release version of 3rd ed, especially as that means no Tau.

Tau had a really rough time of it in 3e/4e because of people consolidating into fresh combats; one melee unit touching your line was more than capable of rolling up the whole thing without ever getting shot. Moreover pretty much all the iconic Tau shenanigans of today (cover-ignoring Markerlights, overarmed big battlesuits, powerful overwatch, the ability to walk out of combat and still shoot, drones taking hits for important people...) didn't really come into their own until 6e, before then the Tau were mostly a sideshow.

Unless one counts the infamously cheesy tactics of Fish of Fury in 4th, Jump Shoot Jump, and really good shooting in 4th when Vehicles were weakened heavily.

3rd edition certainly was the best for Melee though. Blood Angels had their Baal Rhino Rush, and CSM had their own shenanigans with Siren Princes.

Fish Of Fury is a legend that has grown over time. Back in 4e you just charged the Devilfish; you hit it in the rear in melee so you could kill it with chainswords.

JSJ is funny but you need a table built by the Tau player (LOS-blocking terrain in the Tau player's deployment zone and completely open otherwise) before it became actually cheesy.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Fish Of Fury is a legend that has grown over time. Back in 4e you just charged the Devilfish; you hit it in the rear in melee so you could kill it with chainswords.

JSJ is funny but you need a table built by the Tau player (LOS-blocking terrain in the Tau player's deployment zone and completely open otherwise) before it became actually cheesy.

Didn't skimmers have a save against charges (fluffed as "just flying out of reach"), or am I remembering that?

3rd ed had ways gunline could autolose vs assault army. T1 charge you can't protect, can't fall out of combat, can't shoot into combat and even if you finished unit you could consolidiate into new one. If not possible due to distances just made so you were unable to kill enemy. 3-4 units doing such charge and pure gunline was screwed

Early / earlier 8th wasn't so badly skewed against shooting IMO. Some armies had decent defense against shooting (e.g. Alaitoc) and things like Kraken Stealers, Ynnari Spears, Warptime Bash-Brothers, reasonably priced Aberrants, had a place in the game.

But I think it's still more unpopular and "feels bad" on the "receiving side". You lose to a dedicated cc army, you usually "lose" in a single turn when their thing goes off and it's all clean-up after that. Shooting (despite people getting tabled turn 2 with insane Marines) is in theory a more gradual "chipping away at things while you maneouver" over multiple game turns.

The way the system works atm, melee armies by definition "break" the opponent in a decisive turn (or two), rather than chip away at it over a longer period, so it kinda feels worse when a 260ish points Aberrant unit does it's thing in a single battle round than when a 260ish point Riptide does its thing over 6 turns, even though the latter might actually deal more damage per point in the game due to the different sub-rule-systems work.