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I'm surprised no one has made one of these on YMDC yet. It has been talked about in a couple threads but I wanted to try to make a single thread for discussion and (more importantly) a pool of all the relevant rules so hopefully others will be able to find this thread and see a full picture of the situation to make a better opinion and ruling in their own games ( until the FAQ is released next year at least)

This has been a bit of an issue about how many miracle dice can be used during an AOF for an attack. People have been pointing to fast roll rules as a reason to say you can replace multiple and others are pointing to step 4.resolve attacks under the shooting phase as a reason to say all shooting attacks are done one at a time and fast rolling is only to speed it up. I'll list the parts of the rules and arguments that i've seen that both sides are using. If i missed something important for either side please post with it below and i'll update it here if it isn't already covered or if someone has a better way to word certain arguments people have used.

[One at a time]

1. Under step [4. resolve attacks] it says the following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time.

2. Under [Fast Dice rolling] it says "The rules for resolving attacks have been written assuming you will make them one at a time."

3. All shooting attacks are done one at a time and fast rolling just speeds up the one at a time process (can someone explain this argument better?)

4. Fast Dice rolling is off to the side so it doesn't replace how [4. resolve attacks] works/is ignored for other rules/ isn't a rule (can someone explain any of this argument better?)


[Fast roll]

1. Fast Dice Rolling lets you make attacks together and even has all the rules for resolving it under Fast Dice Rolling.

2. Under [4. Resolve Attacks] "Attacks can be made one at a time, or, in some cases, you can roll for multiple attacks together. The following sequence is used to make attacks one at a time:" this means that {4. resolve Attacks] is just one way to roll attacks not the default, and that [Fast Dice rolling] shows another way to roll all attacks together.

3. Under [Fast Dice Rolling] it says "However, it is possible to speed up your battles by rolling the dice for similar attacks together. In order to make several attacks at once...(as long as they have the same blahblahblah)"

4. Its the same way as [Destiny Dice] from aos works and they can replace multiple/ GW even said in one of their articles that it acts like them. (can someone explain any of these arguments better?)

I don't think we will have a for sure answer until GW come out with an official statement so i just want to reiterate that this is more for a pooling of the rules/arguments used with discussion being the secondary objective.

Oberron wrote:


[One at a time]
3. All shooting attacks are done one at a time and fast rolling just speeds up the one at a time process (can someone explain this better?)

Sure.
Speeding it up means that you save time when you roll all of the dice for 30 attacks at once you save time over rolling a single die for an attack to hit, then if you hit rolling to wound, then if you wound, having the enemy roll a save, repeating 29 more times.

4. Fast Dice rolling is off to the side so it doesn't replace how [4. resolve attacks] works/is ignored for other rules/ isn't a rule (can someone explain any of this better?)

Not sure what you need explained better but I will try. Basically, if the attacks qualify, you can choose to fast roll if you wish.

[Fast roll]4. Its the same way as [Destiny Dice] from aos works and they can replace multiple/ GW even said in one of their articles that it acts like them. (can someone explain any of this better?)

Multiple attacks can be fast rolled if they meet the qualifications.

What are you specifically asking?

 DeathReaper wrote:

Oberron wrote:


[One at a time]
3. All shooting attacks are done one at a time and fast rolling just speeds up the one at a time process (can someone explain this better?)

Sure.
Speeding it up means that you save time when you roll all of the dice for 30 attacks at once you save time over rolling a single die for an attack to hit, then if you hit rolling to wound, then if you wound, having the enemy roll a save, repeating 29 more times.

4. Fast Dice rolling is off to the side so it doesn't replace how [4. resolve attacks] works/is ignored for other rules/ isn't a rule (can someone explain any of this better?)

Not sure what you need explained better but I will try. Basically, if the attacks qualify, you can choose to fast roll if you wish.

[Fast roll]4. Its the same way as [Destiny Dice] from aos works and they can replace multiple/ GW even said in one of their articles that it acts like them. (can someone explain any of this better?)

Multiple attacks can be fast rolled if they meet the qualifications.

What are you specifically asking?

He's not asking about how Fast Rolling works. The fundamental question is whether Sisters can use multiple Miracle Dice to replace, for example, multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Oberron wrote:


[One at a time]
3. All shooting attacks are done one at a time and fast rolling just speeds up the one at a time process (can someone explain this better?)

Sure.
Speeding it up means that you save time when you roll all of the dice for 30 attacks at once you save time over rolling a single die for an attack to hit, then if you hit rolling to wound, then if you wound, having the enemy roll a save, repeating 29 more times.

4. Fast Dice rolling is off to the side so it doesn't replace how [4. resolve attacks] works/is ignored for other rules/ isn't a rule (can someone explain any of this better?)

Not sure what you need explained better but I will try. Basically, if the attacks qualify, you can choose to fast roll if you wish.

[Fast roll]4. Its the same way as [Destiny Dice] from aos works and they can replace multiple/ GW even said in one of their articles that it acts like them. (can someone explain any of this better?)

Multiple attacks can be fast rolled if they meet the qualifications.

What are you specifically asking?

im specifically asking if anyone can explain those arguments better or word them better. i'm paraphrasing what i've read others say.

Audustum wrote:


He's not asking about how Fast Rolling works. The fundamental question is whether Sisters can use multiple Miracle Dice to replace, for example, multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

Bingo

Audustum wrote:
He's not asking about how Fast Rolling works. The fundamental question is whether Sisters can use multiple Miracle Dice to replace, for example, multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

I do not see anything in the rules stopping you from using multiple Miracle Dice to replace multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Audustum wrote:
He's not asking about how Fast Rolling works. The fundamental question is whether Sisters can use multiple Miracle Dice to replace, for example, multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

I do not see anything in the rules stopping you from using multiple Miracle Dice to replace multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

Well you are only allowed to invoke Miracle Dice once per phase, but can replace any number of dice in a single roll.

So the crux is: are the 8 damage dice from 4 Melta wounds (for example) a single roll, or 4 separate 2d6 rolls?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Audustum wrote:
He's not asking about how Fast Rolling works. The fundamental question is whether Sisters can use multiple Miracle Dice to replace, for example, multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

I do not see anything in the rules stopping you from using multiple Miracle Dice to replace multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

Well you are only allowed to invoke Miracle Dice once per phase, but can replace any number of dice in a single roll.

So the crux is: are the 8 damage dice from 4 Melta wounds (for example) a single roll, or 4 separate 2d6 rolls?

The rules for fast rolling do not extend to armour save or damage rolls. That section only enables it under very specific situations for hit and wound rolls only. With the rest of the attack sequence, including wound allocation, armour saves, and damage rolls all happening one at a time, then I'd say you actually are stopped from using multiple miracle dice to affect damage rolls in one Act of Faith.

As such, they are 4 separate 2d6 pick highest rolls as there is no function in the rules that enables you to fast roll damage. We do it as a matter of course by extending fast rolling for ease of play, but it ultimately isn't established or enabled anywhere.

You can only normally make one Act of Faith in a phase. As such, you could normally only replace one damage roll. Should you be sitting next to the Triumph, or be resolving attacks for a unit bearing a Simulacrum Imperialis, or even perhaps both, then I suppose you could use 3 Acts of Faith to substitute 3 damage rolls with 3 miracle dice.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

So the crux is: are the 8 damage dice from 4 Melta wounds (for example) a single roll, or 4 separate 2d6 rolls?

They are 4 separate 2D6 rolls.

As Lemondish notes, Fast Rolling only allows speeding up to hit and to wound rolls. Saves and damage are taken one at a time, so you have four separate 2D6 damage rolls in that Melta example. You don’t roll 8D6.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Audustum wrote:
He's not asking about how Fast Rolling works. The fundamental question is whether Sisters can use multiple Miracle Dice to replace, for example, multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

I do not see anything in the rules stopping you from using multiple Miracle Dice to replace multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

Well you are only allowed to invoke Miracle Dice once per phase, but can replace any number of dice in a single roll.

So the crux is: are the 8 damage dice from 4 Melta wounds (for example) a single roll, or 4 separate 2d6 rolls?

Answer is same as to this: can opponent roll 1 save roll for all melta hits or not?

tneva82 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Audustum wrote:
He's not asking about how Fast Rolling works. The fundamental question is whether Sisters can use multiple Miracle Dice to replace, for example, multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

I do not see anything in the rules stopping you from using multiple Miracle Dice to replace multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

Well you are only allowed to invoke Miracle Dice once per phase, but can replace any number of dice in a single roll.

So the crux is: are the 8 damage dice from 4 Melta wounds (for example) a single roll, or 4 separate 2d6 rolls?

Answer is same as to this: can opponent roll 1 save roll for all melta hits or not?

You don't roll vs hits unless you have a special rule. If you meant all melta wounds both fast rolling and the one at a time method Both say to allocate each wound one at a time. Which also means no matter which one you use as a sisters player you only get to use one MD for saves according to RAW. But that doesn't help on the hits and to-wounds issue.

So you could replace all 4 hits, or all 4 wounds, or both with the Faith and Fury Stratagem, but not all the damage. Got it!

Oberron wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Audustum wrote:
He's not asking about how Fast Rolling works. The fundamental question is whether Sisters can use multiple Miracle Dice to replace, for example, multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

I do not see anything in the rules stopping you from using multiple Miracle Dice to replace multiple damage rolls caused by multiple wound rolls generated by Fast Rolling.

Well you are only allowed to invoke Miracle Dice once per phase, but can replace any number of dice in a single roll.

So the crux is: are the 8 damage dice from 4 Melta wounds (for example) a single roll, or 4 separate 2d6 rolls?

Answer is same as to this: can opponent roll 1 save roll for all melta hits or not?

You don't roll vs hits unless you have a special rule. If you meant all melta wounds both fast rolling and the one at a time method Both say to allocate each wound one at a time. Which also means no matter which one you use as a sisters player you only get to use one MD for saves according to RAW. But that doesn't help on the hits and to-wounds issue.

You can use md for dice for single roll. If you arque 4 multimelta damage is single roll so you can replace al' logically opponent can roll save for single roll to block 'em all.

Want to arque that?

As written it's not even unclear. Unless gw changes rule in faq it's one mm gets to replace. Second if you have way to do second aof. Max i think is 3 with the relique thing around

tneva82 wrote:

You can use md for dice for single roll. If you arque 4 multimelta damage is single roll so you can replace al' logically opponent can roll save for single roll to block 'em all.

Want to arque that?

As written it's not even unclear. Unless gw changes rule in faq it's one mm gets to replace. Second if you have way to do second aof. Max i think is 3 with the relique thing around

The rules state that when it is time to allocate wounds and roll for each wound they are done one at a time. Where are you getting an opponent can roll a single save to block them all? It feels like you are creating a strawman.

What is your supporting evidence for only one can be replaced or are you just agreeing with one at a time side?

Normally, you roll each attack on its own. The point of fast rolling is to save time. If fast rolling changes ANYTHING about how your attack is being handled, you should not fast-roll.

If you're shooting a unit of Dominions with 4 Meltaguns, you can choose to replace ONE of the hit rolls or ONE of the wound rolls with a miracle dice, OR(!) you could replace ANY number of dice from the damage roll for ONE meltagun wound (assuming it's within half range, otherwise it's obviously just one dice again).
Note that you can only replace the dice before you roll the dice, so no replacing bad roll results.

nekooni wrote:
Normally, you roll each attack on its own. The point of fast rolling is to save time. If fast rolling changes ANYTHING about how your attack is being handled, you should not fast-roll.

That's an interpretation that some people have, but it's not universally accepted by any means.

The rule does NOT say if fast rolling changes anything you cant do it.

 Stux wrote:
The rule does NOT say if fast rolling changes anything you cant do it.

GW rules are based on "permissive" rules: it tells you what you CAN do.
We can spend an eternity listing everything you cannot do... they tend to save the cannot do talk for their examples.
It is a poor argument to say "The rules do not say I CANNOT do this.".

Use of the dice:

"Before making a dice roll for a model or unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability, you can choose to use one or more of the dice from your Miracle dice pool instead".

They also list the types of dice rolls you can substitute your pool of numbers, re-rolls is not one of them.
I am not seeing any limit ("one or more") on this, other than you MUST claim what you are using prior to a roll.

Neat looking rule, may have to write down what dice you have in the "pool" trying to keep the dice to their units would be exciting. 3D print some Miracle cages.

 Stux wrote:

nekooni wrote:
The rule does NOT say if fast rolling changes anything you cant do it.

In permissive ruleset, "it doesn't tell me I can't" is not a valid reasoning for anything. Even simple logic such as negation (~P) must be explicitly defined so as to mean the opposite otherwise it is null.

That's not at all what I am saying.

The rule tells you when you can use it, so you can use it in those circumstances. I have permission. You are restricting the rule based on how you think it should work, not on what it says.

 Stux wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Normally, you roll each attack on its own. The point of fast rolling is to save time. If fast rolling changes ANYTHING about how your attack is being handled, you should not fast-roll.

That's an interpretation that some people have, but it's not universally accepted by any means.

The rule does NOT say if fast rolling changes anything you cant do it.

Which is why I wrote "should not" instead of "cannot" - it's simply a suggestion.

But the rules tell us what miracle dice apply to, and it's a single roll (out of a list of allowed types of rolls). The roll can consist of multiple dice, and then (and only then) you're allowed to use multiple miracle dice at once - for example, a charge roll.
A hit roll is usually a single dice roll. If you're fast rolling, you're not performing a single hit roll of multiple dice, you're performing multiple hit rolls at the same time, followed by multiple wound rolls done at the same time. So if you want to use Miracle dice while fast rolling, what you do is perform an Act of Faith for one of the hit rolls by picking a miracle dice and setting it as the result of that hit roll. Then roll the remaining hit rolls as normal, and continue as normal.

You can't just replace all 9 shots of an Exorcist with 9 miracle dice to make the entire salvo auto-hit, because it's 9 hit rolls, not one. Doesn't matter if you're fast rolling or not.

nekooni wrote:

 Stux wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Normally, you roll each attack on its own. The point of fast rolling is to save time. If fast rolling changes ANYTHING about how your attack is being handled, you should not fast-roll.

That's an interpretation that some people have, but it's not universally accepted by any means.

The rule does NOT say if fast rolling changes anything you cant do it.

Which is why I wrote "should not" instead of "cannot" - it's simply a suggestion.

But the rules tell us what miracle dice apply to, and it's a single roll (out of a list of allowed types of rolls). The roll can consist of multiple dice, and then (and only then) you're allowed to use multiple miracle dice at once - for example, a charge roll.
A hit roll is usually a single dice roll. If you're fast rolling, you're not performing a single hit roll of multiple dice, you're performing multiple hit rolls at the same time, followed by multiple wound rolls done at the same time. So if you want to use Miracle dice while fast rolling, what you do is perform an Act of Faith for one of the hit rolls by picking a miracle dice and setting it as the result of that hit roll. Then roll the remaining hit rolls as normal, and continue as normal.

You can't just replace all 9 shots of an Exorcist with 9 miracle dice to make the entire salvo auto-hit, because it's 9 hit rolls, not one. Doesn't matter if you're fast rolling or not.

So how are you coming to the conclusion that fast rolling isn't making all the hits at the same time a single roll?

Fast Rolling doesn't change the fact it's 9 individual hit rolls, it just gives you permission to roll them together. Does this give you "future" information? Yes, but the rules allow it so it's fine.

It's like fast rolling plasma. Yes, you can fast roll it, but each dice still has to be tied to the individual model firing it. Whereas with slow rolling you can decide to stop overheating if your first 3 guys die, fast rolling means you're locked into your entire squad melting if that happens.

Oberron wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 Stux wrote:

nekooni wrote:
Normally, you roll each attack on its own. The point of fast rolling is to save time. If fast rolling changes ANYTHING about how your attack is being handled, you should not fast-roll.

That's an interpretation that some people have, but it's not universally accepted by any means.

The rule does NOT say if fast rolling changes anything you cant do it.

Which is why I wrote "should not" instead of "cannot" - it's simply a suggestion.

But the rules tell us what miracle dice apply to, and it's a single roll (out of a list of allowed types of rolls). The roll can consist of multiple dice, and then (and only then) you're allowed to use multiple miracle dice at once - for example, a charge roll.
A hit roll is usually a single dice roll. If you're fast rolling, you're not performing a single hit roll of multiple dice, you're performing multiple hit rolls at the same time, followed by multiple wound rolls done at the same time. So if you want to use Miracle dice while fast rolling, what you do is perform an Act of Faith for one of the hit rolls by picking a miracle dice and setting it as the result of that hit roll. Then roll the remaining hit rolls as normal, and continue as normal.

You can't just replace all 9 shots of an Exorcist with 9 miracle dice to make the entire salvo auto-hit, because it's 9 hit rolls, not one. Doesn't matter if you're fast rolling or not.

So how are you coming to the conclusion that fast rolling isn't making all the hits at the same time a single roll?

Because nothing in the rules tells me it is. The rules say:

Battle Primer wrote: If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

So the rules still call them multiple hit rolls, not one "hit roll".

Agreed. You're making multiple rolls simultaneously, not one roll - as far as the game is concerned.

nekooni wrote:


Because nothing in the rules tells me it is. The rules say:

Battle Primer wrote: If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

So the rules still call them multiple hit rolls, not one "hit roll".

You're quote seems to contradict your statement. It very clearly says to make them at the same time and that it is all done together. It is very much a single roll but not a single "hit roll".

Oberron wrote:

nekooni wrote:


Because nothing in the rules tells me it is. The rules say:

Battle Primer wrote: If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

So the rules still call them multiple hit rolls, not one "hit roll".

You're quote seems to contradict your statement. It very clearly says to make them at the same time and that it is all done together. It is very much a single roll but not a single "hit roll".

It says "make all the hit rolls at the same time". That's what I'm saying - you're making multiple hit rolls, but at the same time. An act of Faith only affects one of these hit rolls.

nekooni wrote:

Oberron wrote:

nekooni wrote:


Because nothing in the rules tells me it is. The rules say:

Battle Primer wrote: If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

So the rules still call them multiple hit rolls, not one "hit roll".

You're quote seems to contradict your statement. It very clearly says to make them at the same time and that it is all done together. It is very much a single roll but not a single "hit roll".

It says "make all the hit rolls at the same time". That's what I'm saying - you're making multiple hit rolls, but at the same time. An act of Faith only affects one of these hit rolls.

And for each individual dice that is being rolled as part of the dice roll you can select one MD to substitute.
The unit is attacking, all the hits for same weapon etc are done together. Single dice roll but multiple hit rolls I agree, but they are not resolved one at a time.

Could you clearify your argument a different way so I can add it to the op? Are you saying that even though they are rolled together and at the same time that because they are multiple hits it's different?

Except you are making multiple rolls. You can only do substitute for 1 roll. So yeah if your hit roll consists multiple dices(no such weapon exists in game but future proof) you can swap more than one. As it is now 1.

If you claim all are one dice roll opponent can claim he saves them all with 1 dice roll. I like idea of saving all your attacks with 1 save. What with how cp reroll for example works.

Check fast dice wording. It says rollS. Plural. Not singular. Md works with singular. Now was plural singular or not? If unsure ask your english teacher

Oberron wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Oberron wrote:

nekooni wrote:


Because nothing in the rules tells me it is. The rules say:

Battle Primer wrote: If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls.

So the rules still call them multiple hit rolls, not one "hit roll".

You're quote seems to contradict your statement. It very clearly says to make them at the same time and that it is all done together. It is very much a single roll but not a single "hit roll".

It says "make all the hit rolls at the same time". That's what I'm saying - you're making multiple hit rolls, but at the same time. An act of Faith only affects one of these hit rolls.

And for each individual dice that is being rolled as part of the dice roll you can select one MD to substitute.
The unit is attacking, all the hits for same weapon etc are done together. Single dice roll but multiple hit rolls I agree, but they are not resolved one at a time.

Could you clearify your argument a different way so I can add it to the op? Are you saying that even though they are rolled together and at the same time that because they are multiple hits it's different?

As I've said - you are performing multiple hit rolls at the same time. They're still individual rolls, and you only get to modify ONE roll. You can then use MD on any dice of that one roll, but hit rolls are still just one dice per roll.

Making 10 hit rolls of 1 dice each at the same time does not turn them into a single hit roll of 10 dice.

tneva82 wrote:
Except you are making multiple rolls. You can only do substitute for 1 roll. So yeah if your hit roll consists multiple dices(no such weapon exists in game but future proof) you can swap more than one. As it is now 1.

If you claim all are one dice roll opponent can claim he saves them all with 1 dice roll. I like idea of saving all your attacks with 1 save. What with how cp reroll for example works.

Check fast dice wording. It says rollS. Plural. Not singular. Md works with singular. Now was plural singular or not? If unsure ask your english teacher

Your strawman aside MD does not say singular and in fact says one or more MD to use and each individual dice can be replaced.

Roll two dice at the same time. You made only one roll even though there was two of something.