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My question is, if a Chapter is created but doesn’t adhere to the Codex Astartes are they technically known as a Chapter or would a Legion better describe them? For example the Black Templar’s are a non Codex force that are said to exceed 6,000 space marines. Would they be called a Chapter for exceeding the limits of 1,000 space marines?
They are a Chapter. There are no Legions any more (pre-Gathering Storm of course but anything post Gathering Storm is not canon in my eyes). Of course, some Chapters are more compliant than others. The Space Wolves ignore it completely, as technically do the Salamanders and Iron Hands (even if GW forgets that).
The Imperial Fists and Ultramarines on paper adhere to it, but work so closely with related Chapters that they are effectively Legions, with the Genesis Chapter in particular blatantly acting as Ultramarines companies XI though XX.
The Black Templars also ignore the Codex entirely (they were formed from the Imperial Fists who rejected the Codex and went along with the literally insane Sisigmund) but they are still a Chapter.
Also, a Codex Compliant Chapter has roughly 1,500 Marines, not 1,000.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/05 18:31:40
poist gathering storm there are STILL no legions and if you've heard otherwise BCB
thing about chapter orginization is it doesn't prevent chapters from working together volentarily, but it does provide some protection from numerous chapters falling one into heresy as effectively they're taught to think for themselves.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: poist gathering storm there are STILL no legions and if you've heard otherwise BCB
thing about chapter orginization is it doesn't prevent chapters from working together volentarily, but it does provide some protection from numerous chapters falling one into heresy as effectively they're taught to think for themselves.
The Unnumbered Sons are very much Legions in all but name.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/05 19:55:32
My question is, if a Chapter is created but doesn’t adhere to the Codex Astartes are they technically known as a Chapter or would a Legion better describe them? For example the Black Templar’s are a non Codex force that are said to exceed 6,000 space marines. Would they be called a Chapter for exceeding the limits of 1,000 space marines?
Many thanks
The only Legions in M41 are the Traitor Legions.
'Sons of...[insert Primarch's name]' is commonly used to refer to the Chapters using the same Primarch's gene-seed. E.g. all of the Chapters of the Blood are referred to as the 'Sons of Sanguinius', all of the Ultramarines' successors as the 'Sons of Guilliman' etc.
Numerically, the Primaris have had a huge impact as well. In 'The Devastation of Baal' it is said that there were thousands of new Primaris Marines in the Blood Angels' colours alone. Chapter organisation and structure is therefore in a state of flux following the Indomitus Crusade.
Even the Greyshields have, at this point in time, been largely disbanded. They were never a unified force like a Legion was in the first place - more like a large Crusade force (which has never been disallowed by the Codex or any other Imperial registration).
Basically, the general gist of things is, collect what you want, there's probably a loophole in the lore in some place. If you want to stick to the lore, just don't do something super egregious like "the Blood Angels are actually a whole new Legion" or "my guys are actually a Legion rivalling the size of the old Ultramarines Legion!", and you'll be able to find a fringe case to support it being a thing!
BrianDavion wrote: poist gathering storm there are STILL no legions and if you've heard otherwise BCB
thing about chapter orginization is it doesn't prevent chapters from working together volentarily, but it does provide some protection from numerous chapters falling one into heresy as effectively they're taught to think for themselves.
The Unnumbered Sons are very much Legions in all but name.
a temporary formation that was slowly divided up and sent to reinforce existing chapters.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: poist gathering storm there are STILL no legions and if you've heard otherwise BCB
thing about chapter orginization is it doesn't prevent chapters from working together volentarily, but it does provide some protection from numerous chapters falling one into heresy as effectively they're taught to think for themselves.
The Unnumbered Sons are very much Legions in all but name.
a temporary formation that was slowly divided up and sent to reinforce existing chapters.
It being temporary doesn't change the fact it existed. Or are players not allowed to have armies that aren't representing the very most present timeline anymore?
BrianDavion wrote: poist gathering storm there are STILL no legions and if you've heard otherwise BCB
thing about chapter orginization is it doesn't prevent chapters from working together volentarily, but it does provide some protection from numerous chapters falling one into heresy as effectively they're taught to think for themselves.
The Unnumbered Sons are very much Legions in all but name.
a temporary formation that was slowly divided up and sent to reinforce existing chapters.
It being temporary doesn't change the fact it existed. Or are players not allowed to have armies that aren't representing the very most present timeline anymore?
nah nothing stopping you from doing a unnumbered sons army (in fact I'd LOOOVE to see someone paint up a grey shields army) I'm more talking a lore POV here, they wheren't really a legion
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BaconCatBug wrote: Also, a Codex Compliant Chapter has roughly 1,500 Marines, not 1,000.
Wait! What?
That's on the larger size of a codex compliant but it's possiable.
First of all rememebr that specialsits etc don't count. nor BTW does the tenth company (which can have as many scouts as they like)
So looking at a Marine Chapter they have:
Chapter Command Staff: Chapter Master, Honor Guard (this can vary but it's rare for a chapter to have a large honorguard, although the blood angels and ultramarines are specificly noted to have larger ones, for the math we're gonna say 3) Chapter Champion, Chapter Ancient. Total Marines: 6
Librarius: Unrestricted in size, many chapters seem to have between 10-30 Libby's, we'll go with the medium and say 15.
Chaplains: you'll have the High Chaplain, one for each company and a handful of extra's. we'll say 12 total.
Apocathary: I'll say 15 total, these guys are important.
Tech Marines: these can be any number, chances are a chapter has about a dozen or so.
Marines assigned to the fleet: 1 per ship, so we'll say about 20 or so. (weather or not marines are perminatly assigned to ships as captains is unclear. but we're assuming they are for this exercise)
Company Command: 1 captain, 2 Lts, 3 company veterns, 1 company champion, 1 company ancient. per company (realisticly I expect only battle companies have these if even they do but we're maximizing)
Vetern Company: 100 marines.
2nd-9th company 100 marines (for a total of 900 marines)
10th Company: 100 vanguard marines plus an undetirminate number of scouts. (we'll say 100 just as a norm)
total estimated strength of a full strength marine chapter (not that they're at full strength very often):
by my count it's about 1250 marines total. if BCB is assuming a fleet of 25-30 ships each with a 5 man squad aboard then yeah we're getting close to 1500 territory
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BaconCatBug wrote: Also, a Codex Compliant Chapter has roughly 1,500 Marines, not 1,000.
Wait! What?
That's on the larger size of a codex compliant but it's possiable.
First of all rememebr that specialsits etc don't count. nor BTW does the tenth company (which can have as many scouts as they like)
So looking at a Marine Chapter they have:
Chapter Command Staff: Chapter Master, Honor Guard (this can vary but it's rare for a chapter to have a large honorguard, although the blood angels and ultramarines are specificly noted to have larger ones, for the math we're gonna say 3) Chapter Champion, Chapter Ancient. Total Marines: 6
Librarius: Unrestricted in size, many chapters seem to have between 10-30 Libby's, we'll go with the medium and say 15.
Chaplains: you'll have the High Chaplain, one for each company and a handful of extra's. we'll say 12 total.
Apocathary: I'll say 15 total, these guys are important.
Tech Marines: these can be any number, chances are a chapter has about a dozen or so.
Marines assigned to the fleet: 1 per ship, so we'll say about 20 or so. (weather or not marines are perminatly assigned to ships as captains is unclear. but we're assuming they are for this exercise)
Company Command: 1 captain, 2 Lts, 3 company veterns, 1 company champion, 1 company ancient. per company (realisticly I expect only battle companies have these if even they do but we're maximizing)
Vetern Company: 100 marines.
2nd-9th company 100 marines (for a total of 900 marines)
10th Company: 100 vanguard marines plus an undetirminate number of scouts. (we'll say 100 just as a norm)
total estimated strength of a full strength marine chapter (not that they're at full strength very often):
by my count it's about 1250 marines total. if BCB is assuming a fleet of 25-30 ships each with a 5 man squad aboard then yeah we're getting close to 1500 territory
I see. I never thought of it like that. Thanks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/06 04:47:00
BaconCatBug wrote: Also, a Codex Compliant Chapter has roughly 1,500 Marines, not 1,000.
Wait! What?
That's on the larger size of a codex compliant but it's possiable.
First of all rememebr that specialsits etc don't count. nor BTW does the tenth company (which can have as many scouts as they like)
So looking at a Marine Chapter they have:
Chapter Command Staff: Chapter Master, Honor Guard (this can vary but it's rare for a chapter to have a large honorguard, although the blood angels and ultramarines are specificly noted to have larger ones, for the math we're gonna say 3) Chapter Champion, Chapter Ancient. Total Marines: 6
Librarius: Unrestricted in size, many chapters seem to have between 10-30 Libby's, we'll go with the medium and say 15.
Chaplains: you'll have the High Chaplain, one for each company and a handful of extra's. we'll say 12 total.
Apocathary: I'll say 15 total, these guys are important.
Tech Marines: these can be any number, chances are a chapter has about a dozen or so.
Marines assigned to the fleet: 1 per ship, so we'll say about 20 or so. (weather or not marines are perminatly assigned to ships as captains is unclear. but we're assuming they are for this exercise)
Company Command: 1 captain, 2 Lts, 3 company veterns, 1 company champion, 1 company ancient. per company (realisticly I expect only battle companies have these if even they do but we're maximizing)
Vetern Company: 100 marines.
2nd-9th company 100 marines (for a total of 900 marines)
10th Company: 100 vanguard marines plus an undetirminate number of scouts. (we'll say 100 just as a norm)
total estimated strength of a full strength marine chapter (not that they're at full strength very often):
by my count it's about 1250 marines total. if BCB is assuming a fleet of 25-30 ships each with a 5 man squad aboard then yeah we're getting close to 1500 territory
I see. I never thought of it like that. Thanks.
yeah it's a common misconception.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Numerically, the Primaris have had a huge impact as well. In 'The Devastation of Baal' it is said that there were thousands of new Primaris Marines in the Blood Angels' colours alone. Chapter organisation and structure is therefore in a state of flux following the Indomitus Crusade.
Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember it being said the Bobby G amended the Codex after the Indomitus Crusade to allow for larger chapter/company size with upto 20 squads being allowed in each company. I know in the standard space Marines transfer sheet they give you the have squad markings from between 1 to 20.
Numerically, the Primaris have had a huge impact as well. In 'The Devastation of Baal' it is said that there were thousands of new Primaris Marines in the Blood Angels' colours alone. Chapter organisation and structure is therefore in a state of flux following the Indomitus Crusade.
Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember it being said the Bobby G amended the Codex after the Indomitus Crusade to allow for larger chapter/company size with upto 20 squads being allowed in each company. I know in the standard space Marines transfer sheet they give you the have squad markings from between 1 to 20.
he did but only to runb split squads, a company can now run 20 squads of 5 instead of ten squads of ten
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Yeah, as said above, there can now be 20 Squads in a Company, but that doesn't mean that Companies are now 200 Marines large. Basically, it's there as a provision for minimum sized squads.
To the original post, I think calling your self a legion would be likely to get you sanctioned far more than being none codex compliant with a few ( thousand black Templar’s) as even if you only have 500 marines it implies your aiming big
4th company 3000pts
3rd Navy drop Command 3000pts air cavalry
117th tank company 5500pts
2000pts
Azkallean wrote: My question is, if a Chapter is created but doesn’t adhere to the Codex Astartes are they technically known as a Chapter or would a Legion better describe them? For example the Black Templar’s are a non Codex force that are said to exceed 6,000 space marines. Would they be called a Chapter for exceeding the limits of 1,000 space marines
It would be known as Excommunicate Traitoris and invited to meet the business end of a bolter of retribution strike force. See Astral Claws. Unless they somehow can find patronage of someone really powerful, like the High Lords of Terra.
Black Templar thing is not only stupid fanon (adding all forces in battles hundreds of years apart? suuuure...), Templars are in fact Codex compliant and just abuse various provisions for crusading chapters (like lack of limit of uninitiated scouts).
BaconCatBug wrote: They are a Chapter. There are no Legions any more (pre-Gathering Storm of course but anything post Gathering Storm is not canon in my eyes). Of course, some Chapters are more compliant than others. The Space Wolves ignore it completely, as technically do the Salamanders and Iron Hands (even if GW forgets that).
Wrong. They all keep about Chapter sized force. Changing the name of the company (or splitting up first company among others) does not make them not compliant, Ultramarine successors do the same. Sure, above three do it on more permanent, not temporary basis like others, but none of that openly violates Codex. Hell, your typical Codex battle task force is nearly identical to IH chapter split, if less rigid and not so pointlessly dogmatic.
The Imperial Fists and Ultramarines on paper adhere to it, but work so closely with related Chapters that they are effectively Legions, with the Genesis Chapter in particular blatantly acting as Ultramarines companies XI though XX.
Except Fists who were behind the dumb last wall thing died to a man and recreated Fist chapter had no clout or political power to redo it, so nope (and even then last wall was supposed to be 'sky is falling' crisis measure, not DA level treason, so doubly nope). As for Ultramarines, less 1d4chan, the Genesis thing is dumb fanon from kids trying to cherrypick anything at all ""proving"" they don't follow the Codex, but if you actually bothered to read source, you'd see all politically powerful chapters borrow cadres from their descendants if they have to (see not only Dante's call for tithe to rebuild BA to their successors, but also Astral Claws and Tiger Claws relationship). As long as both stay below 1000, there is literally nothing wrong with the laws.
The Black Templars also ignore the Codex entirely (they were formed from the Imperial Fists who rejected the Codex and went along with the literally insane Sisigmund) but they are still a Chapter.
Wrong, they rejected dumb 'all the walls, all the time' thing, and as much as ADB tries to retcon it, if anything, both Templars and Crimson Fists adopted Codex throughly, at least at first, to show middle finger to Dorn and his 'let me kill all my men because I am feeling emo today' brilliant battle plans.
Also, a Codex Compliant Chapter has roughly 1,500 Marines, not 1,000.
As much as I don't like it, it's at best 1050, as all the SM manning extraneous stuff are supposed to come from reserve companies. At least according to the bit of canon you say you don't ignore. Post Indomitus Crusade, it's different matter.
As much as I don't like it, it's at best 1050, as all the SM manning extraneous stuff are supposed to come from reserve companies. At least according to the bit of canon you say you don't ignore. Post Indomitus Crusade, it's different matter.
you'd be wrong on that. I did a cut down of it, and yes I deliberatly padded the numbers with the friendliest assumptions to the matter I could, but once you include libarians, tech marines, command squads, apocatharies, chaplains etc, the number can add proably another 100 marines easily eneugh.
thing is the codex doesn't provide limits on this, as such a chapter could have 2000 tech marines, (just to use a silly number) and still be codex compliant.
Although I imagine in the case of tech marines arcane treaties with the admech limit how many tech marines are trained for each chapter.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I think the idea is that the chapter is supposed to have 1000 battle ready marines at any one time, ten companies with 10 squads of 10 each along with commanders and specialists. So yes ideally a chapter will have over 1000 marines but the main fighting force is a 1000 strong.
even then it's not 100% accurate as the scout company doesn't count. (oddly the addition of 100 vanguard to the tenth company helps square that out a bit)
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: even then it's not 100% accurate as the scout company doesn't count. (oddly the addition of 100 vanguard to the tenth company helps square that out a bit)
The scout company having no limit could always have been interpreted as meaning inside the 1000 marines of the chapter, but unlimited when contrasted with the other companies. It would mean that if a chapter was down to four hundred marines, they'd obviously want to ramp up the recruitment and have a 600 member scout company to accelerate recovery.
It doesn't matter after the ultima founding, but I hate when people say what you did in the quote as if it is the absolute certain truth. It didn't say the scout company doesn't count, it said the unlike other companies the scouts company doesn't have an upper limit.
BrianDavion wrote: even then it's not 100% accurate as the scout company doesn't count. (oddly the addition of 100 vanguard to the tenth company helps square that out a bit)
The scout company having no limit could always have been interpreted as meaning inside the 1000 marines of the chapter, but unlimited when contrasted with the other companies. It would mean that if a chapter was down to four hundred marines, they'd obviously want to ramp up the recruitment and have a 600 member scout company to accelerate recovery.
It doesn't matter after the ultima founding, but I hate when people say what you did in the quote as if it is the absolute certain truth. It didn't say the scout company doesn't count, it said the unlike other companies the scouts company doesn't have an upper limit.
thats the thing, there is no "100 marine limit"
also the lack of a upper limit on the scout company pre-dates the Ultima founding, I know the 6th or 7th marine 'dexes also mention this
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
For the Emperor and Sanguinius! 
4th company 3000pts
3rd Navy drop Command 3000pts air cavalry
117th tank company 5500pts
2000pts 
