Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I was thinking about adding a shadowseer into my craftworld list because I like the mirror of minds psychic ability. However, her save is a 7+ what does that even mean? Does that mean she just uses her invuln. I've also noticed that a lot of the craftworlds HQ tend to be squishy like the shadowseer having a toughnes of 3 or thr warlocks that have a toughnes of 4 and a save of 6 so anything shooting them that doesn't have an Ap- is more than likely going to wound . Whats the best way to protect somenof these units? Im thinking of screening woth dore avengers. Any clarification on these questions wpuld be much appreciated.

The 7+ armour save is kind of a way for the Codex writer to tell the reader to "use her invul save instead of the armour save." Even if she were in cover her armour save would only be a 6+, so her 4++ invulnerable save will always be superior. Also the Warlock has Rune Armour which also gives him a 4++ invul save. As for the Warlock Conclave, well, they don't count as an independent character so they can be freely targeted by any ranged attack within range. With the single Warlock you can screen him with other units (as in the case of characters an enemy unit can only target him if he's the closet enemy model), and it may even be possible to "bubblewrap" him with an entire squad so long as said squad can remain in full coherency.

that said there are some, rare abilities, that strip invul saves, so if she was subjected to that and was in cover that's to eltcha know "well NOW you have armor!"

The best way to protect your characters is

A) Screen with other units. This does not have to mean infantry.

b) put them in a transport - This does mean their abiltiies are not in effect until they disembark nor can they cast powers until they are on the battlefield. But they will be protected.

For example a squad of 16 Storm guardians make a much better screen than Dire Avengers for screen purposes. You give them celestial shield for 1 CP and you have 16 4++ bodies the enemy needs to get through.

The key is to have multiple units your enemies don't really want to shoot at in front of your characters.

Regarding protection, obviously screen HQs as best you can. But in terms of innate protection, if you use a Ynnari Shadowseer you could give him Mirrorgaze and Lord of Rebirth.

This means enemies have -1 to hit him, -1 to wound him, and he has a 4+ invulnerable and then a 5+ to negate each individual wound. Plus he regenerates 1 lost wound each turn.

Let's see your opponent snipe him now.

 vipoid wrote:
Regarding protection, obviously screen HQs as best you can. But in terms of innate protection, if you use a Ynnari Shadowseer you could give him Mirrorgaze and Lord of Rebirth.

This means enemies have -1 to hit him, -1 to wound him, and he has a 4+ invulnerable and then a 5+ to negate each individual wound. Plus he regenerates 1 lost wound each turn.

Let's see your opponent snipe him now.

I like this idea but the only problem is, I lose mirror of minds when it becomes ynnari.

Well, Mirror of Minds isn't a great spell though.

Unless you simply like the concept and/or the fluff, the Ynnari Gaze of Ynnead as a "targeted-smite-to-splash into any pointy-ear army" is probably better.

Hell, even staying with Harlequins, Shards of Light will do more Mortal Wounds on average, not even considering the Ld-debuff (which the Shadowseer can exploit in the following shooting phase).


What exactly is it you like about Mirror of Minds?

akillys wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Regarding protection, obviously screen HQs as best you can. But in terms of innate protection, if you use a Ynnari Shadowseer you could give him Mirrorgaze and Lord of Rebirth.

This means enemies have -1 to hit him, -1 to wound him, and he has a 4+ invulnerable and then a 5+ to negate each individual wound. Plus he regenerates 1 lost wound each turn.

Let's see your opponent snipe him now.

I like this idea but the only problem is, I lose mirror of minds when it becomes ynnari.

I'd have thought Gaze of Ynnead would be a reasonable replacement, tbh.

If anything, I would think that the real issue would be the lack of an equivalent to Twilight Pathways.

 vipoid wrote:

akillys wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Regarding protection, obviously screen HQs as best you can. But in terms of innate protection, if you use a Ynnari Shadowseer you could give him Mirrorgaze and Lord of Rebirth.

This means enemies have -1 to hit him, -1 to wound him, and he has a 4+ invulnerable and then a 5+ to negate each individual wound. Plus he regenerates 1 lost wound each turn.

Let's see your opponent snipe him now.

I like this idea but the only problem is, I lose mirror of minds when it becomes ynnari.

I'd have thought Gaze of Ynnead would be a reasonable replacement, tbh.

If anything, I would think that the real issue would be the lack of an equivalent to Twilight Pathways.

Gaze of ynnead would be a good alterative. I'll try both. I just like the fact that mirror of minds has the potential to deal a massive amount of wound. I know is not likely to work all the time and i should take into account ther law of averages.

Why would you field a shadowseer in a craftworld Army just for one of its worst abilities?

You field a shadowseer to buff you Harlies, for veil of tears, fog of dreams and twilight pathways. Not ever would I give them other spells.

You know how scary a veil of tears + fog of dreams + suit of hidden knives shadowseer can be? Mirror of Minds has nothing on that.
If you're not fielding a full detachment of Harlequins a shadowseer will not be worth it.

Morkphoiz wrote:
Why would you field a shadowseer in a craftworld Army just for one of its worst abilities?

Fun? Flavour?

I'm planning to include a Ynnari Shadowseer in my DE army (which will have near enough no other Harlequins for him to support) just to throw around a few Mortal Wounds and to be a more inteesting HQ than anything in the entire DE book.

Morkphoiz wrote:
Why would you field a shadowseer in a craftworld Army just for one of its worst abilities?

You field a shadowseer to buff you Harlies, for veil of tears, fog of dreams and twilight pathways. Not ever would I give them other spells.

You know how scary a veil of tears + fog of dreams + suit of hidden knives shadowseer can be? Mirror of Minds has nothing on that.
If you're not fielding a full detachment of Harlequins a shadowseer will not be worth it.

Thabks for the input on that ill look into it. Ill have to figure out how to set up that detachment to fit into my current list. Im running wraithknight... i know i know its an awful unit bur i really like the look of the model lol. Kinda why I got into Craftworlds.

keep in mind mind it doesn't matter if a HQ has no armor, 2 wounds and T3, or 2+ armor 6 wounds and T4, if that HQ is out in the open with no screening? he's going down. I was in a 3 way game shortly before christmas, turns out my enemies pivoted to engaged each others and both left their HQs unscreened. their HQs died FAST. and these where Marine and Chaos Marine captains.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, Mirror of Minds isn't a great spell though.

Unless you simply like the concept and/or the fluff, the Ynnari Gaze of Ynnead as a "targeted-smite-to-splash into any pointy-ear army" is probably better.

Hell, even staying with Harlequins, Shards of Light will do more Mortal Wounds on average, not even considering the Ld-debuff (which the Shadowseer can exploit in the following shooting phase).


What exactly is it you like about Mirror of Minds?

I like the roll off where if my dice is equal to or greater than they lose a wound. I also like that it can be done until a unit is destroyed if i keep rolling higher. I know its not probable but it is possible. I also like the 24inch range with no line of sight required.

Mirror of Minds may do less wounds on average than a normal MW spell, but by golly is it a lot more fun, the 'mini-game' aspect of it is very Harlequiny. Also the fact that it can snipe characters from 24" away and there's no upper limit on the potential wounds is pretty big and can cause the enemy to massively overreact to the threat of the Shadowseer, even in subsequent games where you may not have the spell.

akillys wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, Mirror of Minds isn't a great spell though.

Unless you simply like the concept and/or the fluff, the Ynnari Gaze of Ynnead as a "targeted-smite-to-splash into any pointy-ear army" is probably better.

Hell, even staying with Harlequins, Shards of Light will do more Mortal Wounds on average, not even considering the Ld-debuff (which the Shadowseer can exploit in the following shooting phase).


What exactly is it you like about Mirror of Minds?

I like the roll off where if my dice is equal to or greater than they lose a wound. I also like that it can be done until a unit is destroyed if i keep rolling higher. I know its not probable but it is possible. I also like the 24inch range with no line of sight required.

I think im sticking with the single shadowseer unit with mirror of minds and shards of light. I do like the idea of using suit of hidden knives and have add that. I'm teying to use as much psychic power as I can. Im running eldrad and some warlocks. The rest of the list consists to a wraithknight, a hemlock, shining spears, dark reapers, the bone singer to heal the wraithknight and hemlock and some dire avengers. Not the most competitive but it should be fun to play. I feel like there is room for a lot of shenanigans in the list I have set up

The wraithknight with sun cannon and two star cannons isn't that bad these days, it's brilliant at killing marines which is a decent thing to be able to do. A near 400 pt super heavy is perhaps wasted killing marines but it's the best use of the unit as far as I can tell.

akillys wrote:
I think im sticking with the single shadowseer unit with mirror of minds and shards of light. I do like the idea of using suit of hidden knives and have add that. I'm teying to use as much psychic power as I can. Im running eldrad and some warlocks. The rest of the list consists to a wraithknight, a hemlock, shining spears, dark reapers, the bone singer to heal the wraithknight and hemlock and some dire avengers. Not the most competitive but it should be fun to play. I feel like there is room for a lot of shenanigans in the list I have set up

Suit of Hidden knives only works If you stack at least -2 to Hit on the seer. Also do remember that you need your Warlord to be harlequin to Access their relics

Morkphoiz wrote:

akillys wrote:
I think im sticking with the single shadowseer unit with mirror of minds and shards of light. I do like the idea of using suit of hidden knives and have add that. I'm teying to use as much psychic power as I can. Im running eldrad and some warlocks. The rest of the list consists to a wraithknight, a hemlock, shining spears, dark reapers, the bone singer to heal the wraithknight and hemlock and some dire avengers. Not the most competitive but it should be fun to play. I feel like there is room for a lot of shenanigans in the list I have set up

Suit of Hidden knives only works If you stack at least -2 to Hit on the seer. Also do remember that you need your Warlord to be harlequin to Access their relics

So I can't spend the cp to get the extra relic?