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Ok so the black templars hate ALL psykers and mutants. Even sanctioned psykers and Abhumans. So how do they get around without Navigators and Astropaths. How are they not constantly picking fights with the IG. Youd think Guard commanders would just start refusing to fight beside the BT if they just slaughter the guards Ogryns and Ratling every time they show up on a battle field. What about Squats back when those were a thing. Youd think any Squat regiments would just end up in a shooting war with any Black Templars they encounter. i dont understand how the BTs survive with a kill on sight mentality regarding Psykers and Mutants.

Because they're not stupid, they're willing to make exceptions for those of value to the Imperium. for example, their hate of the psyker is more accurately a hate for the WITCH, the rogue unrestrained psyker, (obviously any normal psyker cannot be trusted for their potential to become a witch) navigators, astropaths etc, are ok because the Emperor specificly exempted them.

likewise Ogryens etc are offically accepted abhumans, they're certainly not equals to humans but they're accepted as part of Imperial society.

IIRC the older fluff was that they did hate navigators and such but they tolerated them because they literally needed them. But they didn't have any Librarians because of their hatred of the witch and they're also one of the few Chapters who actually follow the rules of Nikea.

That's all been ret-conned. The current Black Templars actually treat Astropaths and Navigators with the greatest of respect, the former for having stood within the light of the God-Emperor directly and been blinded by it, and the latter for being witness to the light of the Astronomicon. This respect does not carry to other sanctioned psykers, including Librarians. As for abhumans, they would not kill them, assuming they recognize them as abhumans and don't think they're mutants. They have messed this up on occasion.

The reason they don't have their own Librarians is now a point of mystery. At one point in their past they did have them, but the why they don't anymore is kept secret. Some believe their geneseed was affected by the death throes of the Cacodominus, making it impossible for psykers to be implanted with their geneseed, but that's just a theory.

OP, I think what you meant to ask was:

How does 40k survive the Black Templars?

Because they stop to pray.

jareddm wrote:
That's all been ret-conned. The current Black Templars actually treat Astropaths and Navigators with the greatest of respect, the former for having stood within the light of the God-Emperor directly and been blinded by it, and the latter for being witness to the light of the Astronomicon. This respect does not carry to other sanctioned psykers, including Librarians. As for abhumans, they would not kill them, assuming they recognize them as abhumans and don't think they're mutants. They have messed this up on occasion.

The reason they don't have their own Librarians is now a point of mystery. At one point in their past they did have them, but the why they don't anymore is kept secret. Some believe their geneseed was affected by the death throes of the Cacodominus, making it impossible for psykers to be implanted with their geneseed, but that's just a theory.

Honestly I really don't like that change. It was far more 40k esque when they barely tolerated the navigators.

I wouldn't bet on abhumans being safe. One of the War of the Beast books (Throneworld I think) has an Imperial Fist Successor incinerate a bunch of abhumans before being told off for it.

pm713 wrote:
It was far more 40k esque when they barely tolerated the navigators.

I wouldn't bet on abhumans being safe. One of the War of the Beast books (Throneworld I think) has an Imperial Fist Successor incinerate a bunch of abhumans before being told off for it.

Accidents surely happen from time to time, but the Black Templar commanders probably try to steer their fellows towards the primary target instead of wasting time on some hapless abhumans.

And it doesn't really matter what they think about Navigators. Not even the ship's Captain enters the Navigator area of the ship without permission if he wishes to continue having (competent) Navigator service. These guys work on contract and while they're probably obliged to aid the Space Marines a Chapter that misbehaves isn't going to get the best Navigators, they'll get the bottom of the barrel choices when contracts are renewed. I'd guess only the Crusade Leader speaks to the Navigator and then only in specific polite terms.

The Black Templars run on pure hypocrisy. Hating psykers while making use of them and claiming to strictly follow the Emperor's will while upholding him as a God.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

While I'm not Black Templar's fanboy, I have read their fluff in the new SM codex.

Anyhoo, it's stated in black-and-white that they hate witches, but not useful and disciplined psykers. So sanctioned things like Astropaths, navigators, and even librarians are fine.

Additionally: It's also stated that they don't lack librarians because they hare them / kill them. They simply haven't had any psychically recruits show up and survive implantation process of their gene seed. They're ready and willing to accept having librarians again, but aren't actively pushing it because "The emperor will provide," or some such.

Wow, the new fluff sucks.

The whole point of the fluff initially was to emphasize the hypocrisy of the BT, the Imperium and their feelings towards psykers and the Emperor...you know just like modern religion is full of hypocrisy and exceptions.

They did the same with Space Wolves in the Horus Hersey series.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Wow, the new fluff sucks.

The whole point of the fluff initially was to emphasize the hypocrisy of the BT, the Imperium and their feelings towards psykers and the Emperor...you know just like modern religion is full of hypocrisy and exceptions.

They did the same with Space Wolves in the Horus Hersey series.

they're still hipocrits, now we just understand the lame ass reasoning they use

No shades of grey, only extremes. And thats just their heraldry scheme!

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Wow, the new fluff sucks.

The whole point of the fluff initially was to emphasize the hypocrisy of the BT, the Imperium and their feelings towards psykers and the Emperor...you know just like modern religion is full of hypocrisy and exceptions.

They did the same with Space Wolves in the Horus Hersey series.

Eh. It seems more clarification than anything.

They like, and even revere, Astropaths and Navigators because they believe that they've literally spoken with the Emperor, and that he's given them they're gifts. This leaves them as still hypocritical, but it falls in line more strongly with the religious hypocrisy they're supposed to embody. "All psykers our bad, except OURS, because they've SPOKEN with our god to get their gifts!"

Black Templars I have been playing them since 3rd edition (They were depicted on the box set).
It was very upsetting to me when they put out the Armageddon Codex and took the Whirlwind away (First vehicle I painted for 40k) since they wanted close combat "to be sure" the enemy is indeed dead.
The chains attached to their weapons was kinda silly as well... I am sure in their BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD golden throne...<ahem> "Zeal" they may drop their weapons and try to use their teeth (Oh yeah, that is a blood angel thing).

Retcon is a good word for them, the GW shop really has had a hard time trying to figure out these guy's niche.

They really do have more in common with the Sisters of Battle than their brothers, they have almost always have had their own form of acts of faith to protect them.

I really wanted them since they are so darn angry with chaos and they were perfect against my Chaos armies (first ones I had).

They will do whatever it takes to slay the Emperor's enemies and are just loving Guiliman being back.

yeah black templars really are "space marines with a SOB" vibe, chappy litanies this edition combined with BTs haveing their own unique litanies is a great step to giving them a specific feel.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Wow, the new fluff sucks.

The whole point of the fluff initially was to emphasize the hypocrisy of the BT, the Imperium and their feelings towards psykers and the Emperor...you know just like modern religion is full of hypocrisy and exceptions.

They did the same with Space Wolves in the Horus Hersey series.

Eh. It seems more clarification than anything.

They like, and even revere, Astropaths and Navigators because they believe that they've literally spoken with the Emperor, and that he's given them they're gifts. This leaves them as still hypocritical, but it falls in line more strongly with the religious hypocrisy they're supposed to embody. "All psykers our bad, except OURS, because they've SPOKEN with our god to get their gifts!"

Reversing from "we hate you but need you" to "you're a divine gift and have seen our god" is not a clarification at all. Same with the psykers. They went from "they're abominations and we won't allow them" to "we are no longer blessed with librarians but we will wait for their return".

pm713 wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Wow, the new fluff sucks.

The whole point of the fluff initially was to emphasize the hypocrisy of the BT, the Imperium and their feelings towards psykers and the Emperor...you know just like modern religion is full of hypocrisy and exceptions.

They did the same with Space Wolves in the Horus Hersey series.

Eh. It seems more clarification than anything.

They like, and even revere, Astropaths and Navigators because they believe that they've literally spoken with the Emperor, and that he's given them they're gifts. This leaves them as still hypocritical, but it falls in line more strongly with the religious hypocrisy they're supposed to embody. "All psykers our bad, except OURS, because they've SPOKEN with our god to get their gifts!"

Reversing from "we hate you but need you" to "you're a divine gift and have seen our god" is not a clarification at all. Same with the psykers. They went from "they're abominations and we won't allow them" to "we are no longer blessed with librarians but we will wait for their return".

If that's true then yeah.

I've never had much of an interest in BT, so my lore knowledge of them can be called surface level at absolute best. So to me this feels more like a clarification, but if it's a 180 then it's clearly a retcon.

pm713 wrote:

Reversing from "we hate you but need you" to "you're a divine gift and have seen our god" is not a clarification at all. Same with the psykers. They went from "they're abominations and we won't allow them" to "we are no longer blessed with librarians but we will wait for their return".

Yeah. Codex Armageddon/Codex Black Templars:

'Ate Witches
'Ate Xenos
'Ate Heretics

Luv me brothers (massive non-codex chapter)
Luv the Emperor (no worship)
Luv melee (no devastators or whirlwinds)

How the psyker/witch hate worked in practice was a grudging toleration of essential personnel- like Navigators and Inquisitors and Astropaths, even Grey Knights and a vigorous persecution of anyone else. A healthy distrust of psykers meant they weren't actively recruiting them for the soldiery, not that they wouldn't use the only galactic navigation/ communications network available. What this meant for recruitment is that they would likely have a range of mechanical and mystical devices (or even an astropath) on hand to actively screen out psykers from their aspirants.

On the other hand, the 'no whirlwinds and devastators' was more a stylistic limitation for the list (remember those?) to ensure that on the tabletop, Templars reflected the knife end of the army. You were not to infer that Crusades had no artillery or heavy weapons teams.

The idea was a continuation of the great crusade- its values (nikea) and its practices (world to world, kicking in doors). The aesthetic of a religious crusade is shared with the sisters of battle, but doesn't reflect worship.

Later Templars would lift the stylistic restriction on long range support but not librarians. Confusingly, they now love loyalist psykers and would love to field them but cant have any. Someone misplaced their librarius you see. Also, none of the individuals who qualify for induction at their recruitment trials are psykers, despite psykers having clear advantages in said combat trials. None of this makes a lick of sense or serves any purpose on the tabletop, or narratively.

Perhaps one of their trials unintentionally routes out paykers.

E.g. a trial for spiritual purity could involve being exposed to a warptainted environment. (Latent?) psykers have a bigger risk of ‘explodey daemon head’ than regular humans do, thus eliminating most potentially psychic aspirants from the process?

Perhaps geneseed descended from Sigismond’s line (or whoever) has a psychic dampening effect?

nareik wrote:
Perhaps one of their trials unintentionally routes out paykers.

E.g. a trial for spiritual purity could involve being exposed to a warptainted environment. (Latent?) psykers have a bigger risk of ‘explodey daemon head’ than regular humans do, thus eliminating most potentially psychic aspirants from the process?

Perhaps geneseed descended from Sigismond’s line (or whoever) has a psychic dampening effect?

One of their tests is to hold this replica of a black sword out straight for 10 mins. Its made from blackstone.

Why do aspirants occasionally wither and die during this test? Why don't we have any librarians? Its a mystery...

Plugging geneseed into latently psychic adolescents is dangerous even under ideal conditions. Most chapters cope with this by having a long, unbroken tradition of experienced librarians who can help each new generation of psychic aspirants through the process and train them to use their gifts safely. But if a chapter loses its Librarius outright, it will no longer have anyone who has even the vaguest idea how to do this. Sure, you could theoretically ask another chapter's librarians to help out, but that would require a degree of pride-swallowing not commonly found among Astartes. So once a chapter loses all its librarians, it probably isn't going to be able to ever replace them, at least not without taking some serious risks.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Plugging geneseed into latently psychic adolescents is dangerous even under ideal conditions. Most chapters cope with this by having a long, unbroken tradition of experienced librarians who can help each new generation of psychic aspirants through the process and train them to use their gifts safely. But if a chapter loses its Librarius outright, it will no longer have anyone who has even the vaguest idea how to do this. Sure, you could theoretically ask another chapter's librarians to help out, but that would require a degree of pride-swallowing not commonly found among Astartes. So once a chapter loses all its librarians, it probably isn't going to be able to ever replace them, at least not without taking some serious risks.

TBH, I imagine there's a tricorder style device that measures psychic potential. The Tau have them, and they understand psykers even less than the Imperium.
One brother waves a psyk-padle over your head while a brother with a flamer asks you what number he is thinking of.
If the paddle detects psychic energy, the aspirant is burned to death.
If the paddle doesn't detect energy, but the aspirant guesses right, he gets burned to death just in case.