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Wizards of the Coast have their "beginner" and "expert" branded products, and I think Citadel should do the same.

All the worst paintjobs I've seen beginners make have one thing in common: either the primary colour they've used is a metallic paint, or they've used too much metallic paint as secondary.

It would be nice if there was active discouragement from the company here so it wouldn't happen so often. I think it's a fairly common nooby thing to do to try metallic paints for the first time and think "boy, that's awesome, I need to use this for everything!"

Thoughts?

Telling a significant segment of one's customer base "you're not good enough for our product" is a fantastic way to wipe out one's business.

That's some very random hobby gatekeeping.

No. If beginners are painting their models, that deserves praise and encouragement. Ripping it out of them for their chosen colour scheme is a petty, gakky thing to do.

Crispy78 wrote:
That's some very random hobby gatekeeping.

No. If beginners are painting their models, that deserves praise and encouragement. Ripping it out of them for their chosen colour scheme is a petty, gakky thing to do.

It's super bizarre gatekeeping because it's not even a question of "beginner" vs "proficient".

People using metallic paints might not enjoy the look of NMM. I, personally, see more beginners trying to replicate NMM or OSL because of exactly what the OP is randomly gatekeeping about and good lord is that the thing that drives me nuts when you offer honest feedback when asked for it.

There is literally zero wrong with someone using metallic paint. If someone's using too much metallic paint and glopping it on? That's a different issue than them simply using metallic paint, which is what the OP seems to be talking about.

I can't really say I've noticed this trend personally.

The biggest issues for new painters are pretty much always brush control (hard to fix other than with practice) and that the paint is too thick, and GW has had a good tilt at that one over the last few years to be fair to them.

LoftyS wrote:
Wizards of the Coast have their "beginner" and "expert" branded products, and I think Citadel should do the same.

All the worst paintjobs I've seen beginners make have one thing in common: either the primary colour they've used is a metallic paint, or they've used too much metallic paint as secondary.

It would be nice if there was active discouragement from the company here so it wouldn't happen so often. I think it's a fairly common nooby thing to do to try metallic paints for the first time and think "boy, that's awesome, I need to use this for everything!"

Thoughts?

I think that this approach is completely at odds with the ethos of the hobby, which is to allow its customer base to build and create according to their own tastes. I don't see why someone using metalic paints as primary colors is a problem in any way. Metalic paints are a just a tool to be used, and using them as base coat isn't any different from using a "Layer" paint as a top coat or a "Base" paint as a highlight.

Sterling191 wrote:
Telling a significant segment of one's customer base "you're not good enough for our product" is a fantastic way to wipe out one's business.

Yes, this is what happened to Magic: the Gathering, biggest TCG in the world with 25 million active players.

Wait

It's not about gatekeeping, it's guidance. "Our plastic is expensive so maybe try not to ruin it the first time you paint it".

Just like Magic's: "Deck building is complex, you should try some pre-made decks before you start opening boosters"

That's all

How does using metallics 'ruin' plastic?

You haven't established that there is a problem, nor what it even is.

Its especially weird since multiple factions and subfactions are recognizable by being primarily metallic (Iron Warriors, Necrons, Sigmarines)

LoftyS wrote:
Wizards of the Coast have their "beginner" and "expert" branded products, and I think Citadel should do the same.

All the worst paintjobs I've seen beginners make have one thing in common: either the primary colour they've used is a metallic paint, or they've used too much metallic paint as secondary.

It would be nice if there was active discouragement from the company here so it wouldn't happen so often. I think it's a fairly common nooby thing to do to try metallic paints for the first time and think "boy, that's awesome, I need to use this for everything!"

Thoughts?

Absolutely. Games Workshop Stores should have a little backroom screened off with a curtain in which Custodes and Stormcast are sold. You'd have to be 18+ to enter.

Hey, I'll take sub par paint jobs over grey plastics in my games anytime.

I don't understand this hate on someone doing something to a product they purchased with his or her (or parents) own money.

He's not "ruining" your plastic, are they?

 skchsan wrote:
I don't understand this hate on someone doing something to a product they purchased with his or her (or parents) own money.

He's not "ruining" your plastic, are they?

No, but it's a road to remorse. Even if not immediately. And regretting money and time spent is the first step to leaving the hobby. If Wizards of the Coast only sold booster packs, of which you have to buy and open hundreds to build a decent deck, they would never have reached 25 million players or even a tenth of that. Metallic paints are harder to use tastefully than regular paints, and thus carry additional risk of making a beginner feel bad about their army. I only have anecdotal evidence of course, but too many quit and never come back because their first paint job wasn't what they imagined it would be.

LoftyS wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
I don't understand this hate on someone doing something to a product they purchased with his or her (or parents) own money.

He's not "ruining" your plastic, are they?

No, but it's a road to remorse. Even if not immediately. And regretting money and time spent is the first step to leaving the hobby. If Wizards of the Coast only sold booster packs, of which you have to buy and open hundreds to build a decent deck, they would never have reached 25 million players or even a tenth of that. Metallic paints are harder to use tastefully than regular paints, and thus carry additional risk of making a beginner feel bad about their army. I only have anecdotal evidence of course, but too many quit and never come back because their first paint job wasn't what they imagined it would be.

Why can't GW just make better metallic paint rather than belittling beginner painters?

Been in the hobby for decades. I got a couple more bits to pick out but I’m not even sorry to use this on the battlefield in this state.

LoftyS wrote:
Metallic paints are harder to use tastefully than regular paints...

Define tastefully.

If GW didn't want people to use lots of metallic paint or do "tasteful" paint schemes then they wouldn't have made official colour schemes featuring gleaming golden armour and gaudy colour schemes which wouldn't be out of place at a renaissance fashion show of the latest trends in men's Milanese hose.

The last thing anybody needs to do is keep new players from painting...the GW prducts as a whole are joke in the wargaming community with regard to hobby effort.

Ah right so what you are saying is that every new painter should attempt NMM, give up and never paint again.
Sounds like solid advice.

Some of the best paint jobs I’ve seen use metallic paints.
NMM was nice when it was rare as it looked great, now it’s so common it’s kind of lost it’s edge.

Also, since this is now the new logic, I propose we remove plastic glue from the shelves as I dislike deconstructing miniatures assembled with it.

LoftyS wrote:
I only have anecdotal evidence of course, but too many quit and never come back because their first paint job wasn't what they imagined it would be.

Metallics are definitely not the problem here. If people are quitting over the quality of their first model over metalics; they're going to come crashing down hard with at least half the colors out there.

Jackal90 wrote:
Ah right so what you are saying is that every new painter should attempt NMM, give up and never paint again.
Sounds like solid advice.

Some of the best paint jobs I’ve seen use metallic paints.
NMM was nice when it was rare as it looked great, now it’s so common it’s kind of lost it’s edge.

Also, since this is now the new logic, I propose we remove plastic glue from the shelves as I dislike deconstructing miniatures assembled with it.

NMM paint jobs are great for photo ops, but the luster & highlights are so exaggerated that it doesn't 'fit' well within a game unless the terrain & both players play with NMM painted models.

Overuse of metallic paint is NOT the problem, color sense might be, but that's what makes a beginner a beginner. We almost all cringe at our earlier efforts.

When beginners use metallics they seldom apply shades or highlights. That's the problem, and the solution is encouraging them to take those extra steps. Simple shades and highlights aren't expert level.

And I'll echo other comments: Painted > Grey Plastic.

This is some of the strangest hobby gatekeeping that I’ve ever come across.

It’s a terrible idea for every reason already given.

 MannyMcCoconut wrote:
Hey, I'll take sub par paint jobs over grey plastics in my games anytime.

Yep...

As long as they are trying who cares?
They know their pain job looks like crap.. they only need to look at the box their miniatures came in !

The general path is: Ohh these didn't turn out like they did on the box. Let me research what I did wrong and How can I improve.

GW does a lot right by providing a wide range of paints including minimally different shades of the same color you can use straight out of the pot, no mixing required. Shades (and Contrast) allow beginners to have higher quality models than were common back in my day. They have painting guides and tutorial videos. They show you how to take first steps to decent models and their professionally painted models are painted to "only" a decent standard so as not to set unreachable goals.

I think GW does a good job of offering a beginner friendly hobby experience.

What boggles the mind is what the OP intends as a substitute for metallics to paint the metallic parts of the models, which there tend to be some on most models. NMM is a silly proposition for beginners when metallics and washes do a decent job with minimal effort and little that can go wrong. So I got to ask, what exactly do you propose as a substitute?

confused as well - I would think metallics are one of the more easy schemes to get to look ok? Like necrons - paint em silver then a wash or two, highlight and we have a basic scheme going on right?

Sure if all they are doing is slopping on a gallon of metallic purple onto everything and nothing else I guess that could be an eyesore but I have yet to see anything quite that bad in person (admittedly I have seen this on some being sold on eBay....)

LoftyS wrote:

It would be nice if there was active discouragement from the company here so it wouldn't happen so often. I think it's a fairly common nooby thing to do to try metallic paints for the first time and think "boy, that's awesome, I need to use this for everything!"

Thoughts?

No you dont get to tell people how to paint their miniatures. just as much as you dont get to tell people how to make their lists or play their game.

you are entirely free however to groom and encourage people how to do better or better yet teach classes for people that like your style of painting.

if the aesthetic taste was all that mattered to GW then they wouldnt even bother selling paints and instead sell prepainted armies in regulation colors for a considerable mark up.

petrov27 wrote:
confused as well - I would think metallics are one of the more easy schemes to get to look ok? Like necrons - paint em silver then a wash or two, highlight and we have a basic scheme going on right?

Contrast makes metallic schemes on most models exceptionally easy. Spray undercoat with Leadbelcher, possibly a drybrush of Stormhost to accentuate detailed areas, slap on a layer of your particular flavor of contrast and hey presto you've got metallic armor in any color you could want.

Jackal90 wrote:
Ah right so what you are saying is that every new painter should attempt NMM, give up and never paint again.
Sounds like solid advice.

Some of the best paint jobs I’ve seen use metallic paints.
NMM was nice when it was rare as it looked great, now it’s so common it’s kind of lost it’s edge.

Also, since this is now the new logic, I propose we remove plastic glue from the shelves as I dislike deconstructing miniatures assembled with it.

What you're doing there is called reductio ad absurdum, and it doesn't really get us anywhere, just letting you know.

I understand what the op is saying. There is a knack to using metallics well, something which eludes most novices (myself included back in the day)

Unless I've missed something, I can't see anywhere in this thread that the proposed solution should be to just have everyone learn NMM.. That seems to have been assumed then run with in order to straw man the OPs question.

Furthermore, there is a difference between NMM, 'true metallic metal.' and simply painting an area with metallic paint. True metallic metal is a skilled technique itself, similar to NMM. It's what I use because I have difficulty using NMM

However, I don't really see any solution to this other than letting folks make their own mistakes and hopefully learn from them. It's similar to novices slopping super thick coats on everything. What you gonna do about it?

If you included extensive detail on every paint guide on how to paint properly, your boxes would be massive.

LoftyS wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
I don't understand this hate on someone doing something to a product they purchased with his or her (or parents) own money.

He's not "ruining" your plastic, are they?

No, but it's a road to remorse. Even if not immediately. And regretting money and time spent is the first step to leaving the hobby. If Wizards of the Coast only sold booster packs, of which you have to buy and open hundreds to build a decent deck, they would never have reached 25 million players or even a tenth of that..

You keep bringing Magic up. I can't tell why, because it isn't relevant. Even if it was, Magic grew and flourished for years and multiple expansions without 'pre-built decks.' They didn't happen until Tempest, which was the 19th set of cards... if you don't count alpha and beta. Magic did fine without bizarre gatekeeping or training wheels.

And you still haven't established why metallics are magically bad.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
Ah right so what you are saying is that every new painter should attempt NMM, give up and never paint again.
Sounds like solid advice.

Some of the best paint jobs I’ve seen use metallic paints.
NMM was nice when it was rare as it looked great, now it’s so common it’s kind of lost it’s edge.

Also, since this is now the new logic, I propose we remove plastic glue from the shelves as I dislike deconstructing miniatures assembled with it.

What you're doing there is called reductio ad absurdum, and it doesn't really get us anywhere, just letting you know.

I understand what the op is saying. There is a knack to using metallics well, something which eludes most novices (myself included back in the day)

Unless I've missed something, I can't see anywhere in this thread that the proposed solution should be to just have everyone learn NMM.. That seems to have been assumed then run with in order to straw man the OPs question.

Furthermore, there is a difference between NMM, 'true metallic metal.' and simply painting an area with metallic paint. True metallic metal is a skilled technique itself, similar to NMM. It's what I use because I have difficulty using NMM

However, I don't really see any solution to this other than letting folks make their own mistakes and hopefully learn from them. It's similar to novices slopping super thick coats on everything. What you gonna do about it?

If you included extensive detail on every paint guide on how to paint properly, your boxes would be massive.

“The primary colour they have used is metallic”
This would mean that such techniques as NMM would be required to paint models like stormcasts etc.

Did I go a bit far with my points? Maybe.

There is a huge difference though between tips like thinning paints and telling people strictly to paint in a certain way.
For a beginner, being told not to use metallics as a primary colour would rule out a few armies right away.
This would not help the hobby, more so considering that stormcasts happen to be the poster boys for AoS.

I do agree that painting true metals is very different.
While I don’t have any real issues with NMM, certain models can be a paint to paint using NMM.
This is usually irregular shapes, like the metal tail weapon on the Mawkrusha kit.


As a side note, finding colour balance and how to make a whole model “mesh” well is something that takes time and experience.
You can watch endless videos and read articles, but until you actually paint for yourself, it’s hard to work out how colours work best together.

I don't think he was saying not to use metallic in any way (unless I'm mistaken)

I think its more along the lines of advising how to use metallic more effectively.

I know when I was young, anything that was remotely solid on a model would be painted in a thick layer of boltgun metal. its only once I got more experienced that I realised that even metal objects aren't usually silver metallic colour. firearms for example. theyre rarely bare metal. so a more effective way of painting them would be to basecoat black then drybrush metallic. that's just a quick example from the top of my head.