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 ScarletRose wrote:
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask what a person's cooking experience is when he's demanding the chefs change what ingredients they use.

But hey, whatever metaphor it takes to defend elitism I guess...

And whatever throw away strawman statement to dismiss valid points I guess.

I'm actually just indulging in a good bit of devils advocate here.

As I said in an earlier post, I agree with the general consensus that people can and should be allowed to do as they please, I just object to all the outrage fuelled negative statements attempting to silence what I see as a (again) poorly expressed but fairly valid point.

To expand, gw make statements saying to thin paints, and not apply thick layers. Why not have more advice? Doesnt have to just be about metallics, but could cover a whole bunch of things.

I just picked up an Infinity AB and some paint from Turbo Dork, this is hitting a little too close to home

Perhaps they could do a youtube series where some pretty talented painters show some simplified techniques that people can learn from and improve with.

Or even perhaps put a color guide on the back of the boxes, with like a 'menu' for several different patterns.

Oh, wait.

Well, I'd say you can't blame GW for this... but if you look at some of the somewhat...'bling' paint jobs from Forge World on their 30k armies like 1kSons or AL...

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

To expand, gw make statements saying to thin paints, and not apply thick layers. Why not have more advice? Doesnt have to just be about metallics, but could cover a whole bunch of things.

Problem is, as I have found is people don't take it as advice- they take it as gospel. "But Duncan sez!!" gets bandied around far too often with them taking the general advice of thinning paints as an edict from on high rather than a good general tip.

I've seen people online tell others to water down their Nurgle's Rot and Metallics (oddly enough. Depends entirely on the context though, plus NR can be watered down, but it is not for the intended effect. I do it myself to give a sheen with a slight green tinge to it to certain parts of Nurgle models.) when trying to give advice as this is what GW has instructed them to do with their paints. The sooner the Cult of Duncan dies off, the better. Then they can see, that whilst it is excellent advice it is just that and not a RAW ruling for how to paint. Side note, Isn't it odd how certain people take everything GW says as RAW, be it in game or elsewhere. .

 Grimtuff wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

To expand, gw make statements saying to thin paints, and not apply thick layers. Why not have more advice? Doesnt have to just be about metallics, but could cover a whole bunch of things.

Problem is, as I have found is people don't take it as advice- they take it as gospel. "But Duncan sez!!" gets bandied around far too often with them taking the general advice of thinning paints as an edict from on high rather than a good general tip.

I've seen people online tell others to water down their Nurgle's Rot and Metallics (oddly enough. Depends entirely on the context though, plus NR can be watered down, but it is not for the intended effect. I do it myself to give a sheen with a slight green tinge to it to certain parts of Nurgle models.) when trying to give advice as this is what GW has instructed them to do with their paints. The sooner the Cult of Duncan dies off, the better. Then they can see, that whilst it is excellent advice it is just that and not a RAW ruling for how to paint. Side note, Isn't it odd how certain people take everything GW says as RAW, be it in game or elsewhere. .

Of course. There are even times when its pertinent to use paint straight from the pot. But that's whats needed here. I don't think anyone is suggesting saying 'don't use metallics.' more along the lines of, think carefully about which metallics to use. more along the lines of, consider not making your entire space marine silver, with brass coloured weapons and shoulder trims, as this will look jarring.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:



Of course. There are even times when its pertinent to use paint straight from the pot. But that's whats needed here. I don't think anyone is suggesting saying 'don't use metallics.' more along the lines of, think carefully about which metallics to use. more along the lines of, consider not making your entire space marine silver, with brass coloured weapons and shoulder trims, as this will look jarring.

*Looks nervously as Grimtuff's Convergence army for WMH is painted more or less in that scheme, which is essentially the studio scheme for them

Which I've also just noticed you can see the Battle Engine in that scheme in the background of the pic I posted ITT.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I don't think anyone is suggesting saying 'don't use metallics.'

LoftyS wrote:
It would be nice if there was active discouragement from the company here...

(Emphasis mine)

And that right there is the whole problem with this thread - rather than say "oh, I don't like the look of that, maybe there's a way to help them improve their painting skills!", it says "oh, I don't like the look of that, maybe there's a way to stop them from trying!".

I work at an FLGS, and for several years now I've run free weekly painting demos where I see a lot of new painters. Frankly, I have no idea what the OP is talking about with beginners and metallics. Sure, I've seen some color choices I wouldn't make myself, but metallics are no worse an offender than any other color or paint type.

Personally, I've found that once I've given them a quick review of the common theory (like thinning your paints, the basic steps of painting, etc - which you'll find in any WarhammerTV video) the biggest hurdle for beginners to produce genuinely decent looking models is brush control... which can only be learned through physical practice.

As I tell people at the painting demo: it's your model, the only person whose approval you need is you.
Stop trying to tell people what paints they can and can't use.

I personally think NMM is a technique only worthy for showing off display painting skills. Since we have metallic pigments that give a much more realistic "metallic" look to surfaces, why wouldn't we use them? Makes no sense to me.

Sure, when you are illustrating stuff in RGB "screen colours"; NMM is the only option since displays don't (yet?) support metallic colour pixels, but why bring that restriction from the world of screens to the rest of the world?

Use any damn colours you please.. If we want to play gatekeeper, I'd rather concentrate on teaching/learning how to do smooth, thin, even coats in any colour.. followed by how to properly drybrush

 Wasteland wrote:


I work at an FLGS, and for several years now I've run free weekly painting demos where I see a lot of new painters. Frankly, I have no idea what the OP is talking about with beginners and metallics. Sure, I've seen some color choices I wouldn't make myself, but metallics are no worse an offender than any other color or paint type.

Yeah, the only 'beginner trends' I've seen aren't abusing metallics. They're these:

"I thought I could use any kind of primer" as someone holds up a model covered in paint meant for metal outdoor furniture.

"This shade might have gone bad" as someone holds up a... something that's dribbling Nuln Oil.

"Well, I figured this paint would work just as good as that expensive stuff" as someone uses the worst, cheapest Hobby Lobby paint that looks like it's powdered on to the model.

"I don't understand drybrushing, edge highlighting works better" as someone dunks their brush and wipes one side off onto a napkin with one stroke... and proceeds to slap it against the model like it's a hoe that owes daddy money

and my favorite:

"This anti-shine stuff has gone bad, it's ruined my models!" as I watch a spray can turn a squad of Blood Angels turn into White Scars

...we won't talk about the people who discover that Acrylics and Gloss Testor's paints are not the same.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

To expand, gw make statements saying to thin paints, and not apply thick layers. Why not have more advice? Doesnt have to just be about metallics, but could cover a whole bunch of things.

Problem is, as I have found is people don't take it as advice- they take it as gospel. "But Duncan sez!!" gets bandied around far too often with them taking the general advice of thinning paints as an edict from on high rather than a good general tip.

I've seen people online tell others to water down their Nurgle's Rot and Metallics (oddly enough. Depends entirely on the context though, plus NR can be watered down, but it is not for the intended effect. I do it myself to give a sheen with a slight green tinge to it to certain parts of Nurgle models.) when trying to give advice as this is what GW has instructed them to do with their paints. The sooner the Cult of Duncan dies off, the better. Then they can see, that whilst it is excellent advice it is just that and not a RAW ruling for how to paint. Side note, Isn't it odd how certain people take everything GW says as RAW, be it in game or elsewhere. .

Of course. There are even times when its pertinent to use paint straight from the pot. But that's whats needed here. I don't think anyone is suggesting saying 'don't use metallics.' more along the lines of, think carefully about which metallics to use. more along the lines of, consider not making your entire space marine silver, with brass coloured weapons and shoulder trims, as this will look jarring.

Well, except that is a paint scheme for several Loyalist AND Chaos forces, a Chamber Militant of the Sisters of Battle, as well as Stormcast Eternals, and the studio paintjob of Convergence of Cyriss from WM/H. I love the contrast of light metal/dark metal, when done right.

Of course, the only time I don't paint straight from the pot is when I use dropper bottles, and that's still just squirted out and painted on the mini in the original consistency.

Newbies just have to be shown how a simple ink wash makes their metallics a thousand times better looking, and how detail colors as a contrast make the model "pop".

tauist wrote:
I personally think NMM is a technique only worthy for showing off display painting skills. Since we have metallic pigments that give a much more realistic "metallic" look to surfaces, why wouldn't we use them? Makes no sense to me.

Sure, when you are illustrating stuff in RGB "screen colours"; NMM is the only option since displays don't (yet?) support metallic colour pixels, but why bring that restriction from the world of screens to the rest of the world?

Use any damn colours you please.. If we want to play gatekeeper, I'd rather concentrate on teaching/learning how to do smooth, thin, even coats in any colour.. followed by how to properly drybrush

again, no one was suggesting that everyone do NMM. that's just absurd.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

tauist wrote:
I personally think NMM is a technique only worthy for showing off display painting skills. Since we have metallic pigments that give a much more realistic "metallic" look to surfaces, why wouldn't we use them? Makes no sense to me.

Sure, when you are illustrating stuff in RGB "screen colours"; NMM is the only option since displays don't (yet?) support metallic colour pixels, but why bring that restriction from the world of screens to the rest of the world?

Use any damn colours you please.. If we want to play gatekeeper, I'd rather concentrate on teaching/learning how to do smooth, thin, even coats in any colour.. followed by how to properly drybrush

again, no one was suggesting that everyone do NMM. that's just absurd.

That’s the issue.
The OP won’t say what it actually is in regards to metallics past what was said in the first post.
When asked it’s simply ignored and a tirade about magic ensues.

It seems Queen Anne that I are trying to defend a position that even the OP either isn’t sure of or can’t defend. I Get that you are trying to play devils advocate but for what? Not using metallics, not using metallics if you can’t paint then smoothly, using a “poor” palette of colours??

GW already produce starter patient sets, simple guides, battle ready and contrast guides and techniques. I bought my daughter who was 6 at the time, the stormcast starter set with paint, the gold models she painted using the most basic techniques of paint and wash were great and she loved them. They looked no worse for being gold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS. As an aside, I agree NMM is only for display pieces. Looks wrong on gaming pieces views from all angles. Not really to do with loftys point, I think.

LoftyS wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
instead of a vague GW should limit things for new people

Spoiler:

Tell me how a little symbol that says "expert" is asking GW to limit anyone from doing anything?

Again; G U I D A N C E

Erm, why are you trying to use packaging from 2002 as an example of how Magic is presented today?

Modern Magic boosters don't have that Expert label, and haven't used it since at least the Alara or Zendikar blocks which were released between late 2008 and early 2010 (source: an old Worldwake booster I've got in another room, which is the middle set of the latter block, released in Feb 2010).

If WotC realised over a decade ago that this use of "Expert product" wasn't worth continuing with, why should GW be starting to use it on their paints now?

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 Wasteland wrote:


I work at an FLGS, and for several years now I've run free weekly painting demos where I see a lot of new painters. Frankly, I have no idea what the OP is talking about with beginners and metallics. Sure, I've seen some color choices I wouldn't make myself, but metallics are no worse an offender than any other color or paint type.

Yeah, the only 'beginner trends' I've seen aren't abusing metallics. They're these:

"I thought I could use any kind of primer" as someone holds up a model covered in paint meant for metal outdoor furniture.

"This shade might have gone bad" as someone holds up a... something that's dribbling Nuln Oil.

"Well, I figured this paint would work just as good as that expensive stuff" as someone uses the worst, cheapest Hobby Lobby paint that looks like it's powdered on to the model.

"I don't understand drybrushing, edge highlighting works better" as someone dunks their brush and wipes one side off onto a napkin with one stroke... and proceeds to slap it against the model like it's a hoe that owes daddy money

and my favorite:

"This anti-shine stuff has gone bad, it's ruined my models!" as I watch a spray can turn a squad of Blood Angels turn into White Scars

...we won't talk about the people who discover that Acrylics and Gloss Testor's paints are not the same.

The single biggest mistake I see beginners make is thinking that somehow Army Painter or Citadel spray primers and paints go on "thinner" than paints/primers meant for metal lawn furniture. I've never used Citadel or any other "hobby" primer/spray paint as it's the same crap as Krylon just more colors and 4x the price and I've never had issues with coverage or losing detail in my 25 years of painting Citadel miniatures.

If you spray a model with Krylon or plastikote or rustoleum and you have lost detail or runs then learn to spray. Stop believing the myth that somehow a $17 can of black paint is superior to a $5 can of black paint that doesn't include the word "hobby" in the product description.

For outdoor priming I use Krylon Camouflage Black, ultra flat and designed to stick to plastic without primer. For winter months I use an AB with Stynelrez Black primer and both cover the same in my experience

This whole thread seems petty, and a little elitist.

OP show me on the doll where the metallic paint touched you.

Metallics if done right look just as good as NMM and don't appear obscene on the TT.

Someone pointed out earlier that NMM is great for a mini for purely display purposes where the light's focus is always going to be same angle and same source.

That same mini held at different angles or viewed under diff. light (not all LGS's or other venues have the same kind of light) makes those models not particularly impressive.