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 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I don't think he was saying not to use metallic in any way (unless I'm mistaken)

I think its more along the lines of advising how to use metallic more effectively.

The first post is pretty clear, he suggests GW actively discourage new painters from using metallics. That won't save newbs from making bad color choices, it's basically a rite of passage in the hobby!

 John Prins wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I don't think he was saying not to use metallic in any way (unless I'm mistaken)

I think its more along the lines of advising how to use metallic more effectively.

The first post is pretty clear, he suggests GW actively discourage new painters from using metallics. That won't save newbs from making bad color choices, it's basically a rite of passage in the hobby!

Thats basically what its coming down to. he doesn't like the looks of subjectively badly painted majority metallic miniatures and as such GW should forceably stop new people from doing it.

 Geifer wrote:
What boggles the mind is what the OP intends as a substitute for metallics to paint the metallic parts of the models

Who said that? Stop putting words in my mouth. Of course they can use metallic paints, I'm just saying they should be discouraged somehow to make it their main colour in their colour scheme until they get some experience, unless they play Necrons or something like that. All I'm talking about it giving newbies the information to avoid such a simple mistake.

I have already compared this to how M:tG labels certain products "Beginner" and some "Expert", the whole "gatekeeping" or "forcing" BS you folks imply is all in your heads.

 John Prins wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I don't think he was saying not to use metallic in any way (unless I'm mistaken)

I think its more along the lines of advising how to use metallic more effectively.

The first post is pretty clear, he suggests GW actively discourage new painters from using metallics. That won't save newbs from making bad color choices, it's basically a rite of passage in the hobby!

I don't think its 'clear' at all. it could've maybe be explained in a clearer manner, but at no point does it say to not use metallics.

LoftyS wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
What boggles the mind is what the OP intends as a substitute for metallics to paint the metallic parts of the models

Who said that? Stop putting words in my mouth. Of course they can use metallic paints, I'm just saying they should be discouraged somehow to make it their main colour in their colour scheme until they get some experience, unless they play Necrons or something like that. All I'm talking about it giving newbies the information to avoid such a simple mistake.

I don't think you have the right to tell new painters all over the world who takes part in GW's line of products that they suck at painting so don't use a lot of metallic paints.

If you have an issue with someone painting their own miniatures how ever they like, then go buy them a new kit and paints & supplies. Then, tell them, because you've purchased everything for them, the creative license is up to you and you only, therefore they cannot use metallic paints as their dominant color until they're not "newbies" anymore.

I mean, the only way this post would make sense is if you had really bad metallic undercoated models and had your entire army in leadbelcher and someone told you that your paint job was worthless, and that you'd have wished you had a coach of some sort that could've told you not do paint your mini's in such way, then I would apologize on his/her behalf who berated you.

LoftyS wrote:
Wizards of the Coast have their "beginner" and "expert" branded products, and I think Citadel should do the same.

All the worst paintjobs I've seen beginners make have one thing in common: either the primary colour they've used is a metallic paint, or they've used too much metallic paint as secondary.

It would be nice if there was active discouragement from the company here so it wouldn't happen so often. I think it's a fairly common nooby thing to do to try metallic paints for the first time and think "boy, that's awesome, I need to use this for everything!"

Thoughts?

I've got a better idea. stop judging other people how they play and start focusing on yourself. if someone's paint scheme has some flaws, maybe I dunno, offer suggests to improve it instead of posting high handed sounding comments about how "aweful they are" and how they should be told not to use paints randomly?

LoftyS wrote:

Who said that? Stop putting words in my mouth. Of course they can use metallic paints, I'm just saying they should be discouraged somehow to make it their main colour in their colour scheme until they get some experience, unless they play Necrons or something like that. All I'm talking about it giving newbies the information to avoid such a simple mistake.

I have already compared this to how M:tG labels certain products "Beginner" and some "Expert", the whole "gatekeeping" or "forcing" BS you folks imply is all in your heads.

You're literally arguing that players and hobbyists should be coerced into doing things a particular way, based solely on your personal preferences.

That's the definition of gatekeeping. But good on you for being honest about your exclusionary control fantasy.

I never saw anything about coercing either.. maybe calm down with the outrage culture folks.

LoftyS wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
I don't understand this hate on someone doing something to a product they purchased with his or her (or parents) own money.

He's not "ruining" your plastic, are they?

No, but it's a road to remorse. Even if not immediately. And regretting money and time spent is the first step to leaving the hobby. If Wizards of the Coast only sold booster packs, of which you have to buy and open hundreds to build a decent deck, they would never have reached 25 million players or even a tenth of that. Metallic paints are harder to use tastefully than regular paints, and thus carry additional risk of making a beginner feel bad about their army. I only have anecdotal evidence of course, but too many quit and never come back because their first paint job wasn't what they imagined it would be.

No mate, the only thing causing remorse is folk like you saying crap like that about people’s models. U can’t really compare deck building and painting. Painting is a dexterous, creative skill taken to the level of fine art by masters. Deck building is a analytical exercise. Like comparing poetry and accounting. This has to the silliest thing I’ve heard in a while.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I never saw anything about coercing either.. maybe calm down with the outrage culture folks.

LoftyS wrote:
Wizards of the Coast have their "beginner" and "expert" branded products, and I think Citadel should do the same.

All the worst paintjobs I've seen beginners make have one thing in common: either the primary colour they've used is a metallic paint, or they've used too much metallic paint as secondary.

It would be nice if there was active discouragement from the company here so it wouldn't happen so often. I think it's a fairly common nooby thing to do to try metallic paints for the first time and think "boy, that's awesome, I need to use this for everything!"

Thoughts?

what does this mean too you then? there is hardly any way to interpret this than i dont like the way new people use metallic so i should get an authority figure to actively discourage this thing i dont like by putting options that cause the issue behind arbitrary titles that will discourage new people from trying things.

Are there any GW minis that do NOT come in a box that walks you through a suggested paint-scheme, or that does not have one on the website? AFAIK, GW already does bend over backward to help out 'noobs', without being too obvious about it.

And like others said, painting a mini that would make Slaanesh think "that's a bit much" is a rite of passage in 'the hobby'. Maybe use your experience to educate, rather than try to legislate.

coercion
/kəʊˈəːʃ(ə)n/
noun
noun: coercion; plural noun: coercions
the action or practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.

The magic thing seems to be your only touchstone, so let me start by saying, this isn't magic. Also, please find more examples to use in arguments than, well in magic they...

Warhammer has starter kits to learn how to play the game. They have starter models and easy build models so that people can learn how to build.

They also have starter paint kits that come with three models and the paints that will make those models look like the box.

They also have hours of video available to show you how to paint your figures.

They do not need to put out a message of "hey noob, do better!"

Also notice, lofty, you haven’t uploaded any gallery images yet, be interesting to see your paint work. I’m normally happy to see other painters work, I’m no expert by any measure but most don’t place them selves on such pedestal. Hope to see some expert NMM work, a technique I’m not keen at all by the way. Looks great when done well on display pieces but not to my personal tastes.

So unless he meant 'active discouragement' in the form of a GW pointing a gun at a kid and telling them not to slop metallic on their models, I feel you're mistaken.


But then it wouldn't be the internet without an overexcited outrage mob...

Guys seriously calm down.

Most of you aren't wrong, people can do as they wish with their models, be that covering them in boltgun metal or using them as marital aids..

What I think the OP is driving at is that there could be more info on how to use metallic more effectively. I just don't think he put it across very well.

my piece. stay mad if you want, its not my heart that will pop from all the stress.

 Desubot wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I never saw anything about coercing either.. maybe calm down with the outrage culture folks.

LoftyS wrote:
Wizards of the Coast have their "beginner" and "expert" branded products, and I think Citadel should do the same.

All the worst paintjobs I've seen beginners make have one thing in common: either the primary colour they've used is a metallic paint, or they've used too much metallic paint as secondary.

It would be nice if there was active discouragement from the company here so it wouldn't happen so often. I think it's a fairly common nooby thing to do to try metallic paints for the first time and think "boy, that's awesome, I need to use this for everything!"

Thoughts?

what does this mean too you then? there is hardly any way to interpret this than i dont like the way new people use metallic so i should get an authority figure to actively discourage this thing i dont like by putting options that cause the issue behind arbitrary titles that will discourage new people from trying things.

Oh, but if he didn't feign ignorance he wouldn't be able to drop rightwing buzzwords so casually.

And like others said, painting a mini that would make Slaanesh think "that's a bit much" is a rite of passage in 'the hobby'. Maybe use your experience to educate, rather than try to legislate.

Pretty much. Every first mini looks terrible, metallic or not, and trying to push certain schemes/colors/etc isn't going to magically make a new painter know how to handle their brush or water down their paints. For all I don't care for them GW's videos have been great for making the basics of painting accessible and that's been responsible for far more improvement than anything else.

 ScarletRose wrote:

rightwing buzzwords

Interesting.. and, also explains a lot.

So, to the OP:

How would you advise a new player paints models like necrons or stormcasts?
In your post you state they should avoid using metallics as a base colour, yet in these instances, I don’t really see many alternatives.


As a side note here, experienced painters are just as bad when it comes to using unfitting colours.
How many people have you seen who go wild with an airbrush?
I’m talking about the ones where every single vent, eye and weapon barrel will all glow the same colour.

necrons in non metallic schemes look better: change my mind.

I don't think those factions were the main focus..

Gotta agree with queen_anne's_revenge here. I kinda get where the OP is coming from- hell, when I started "painting" it was the Legend of Zagor board game done with enamel paints and Graffic Traffic pens. . People should not be discouraged from painting how they like but sometimes they do need a bit of guidance in the art of moderation and not trying to run before they can walk.

Below is one of my first 40k minis. It certainly has all the hallmarks of a painting beginner mini- globbed on paint, a Dark Angels green base (a nice little pinpoint to say that was certainly from the starter paint set as the 40k one came with DA green), an attempt at a freehand chapter symbol, but at no time did anyone belittle my painting (except for that GW manager who told me Jes Goodwin would be appalled with what I was doing to one of his sculpts after brush undercoating it with thick black paint in front of him. He ran it under the tap an introduced me to actually thinning my paints. ). That mini is one the few surviving firsts that wasn't stripped or lost somewhere and he sits on top of my cabinet with more recent work as a way of grounding me in a sense.



A wise man once said, you learn from your mistakes. A wiser man said you learn from other people's mistakes.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
necrons in non metallic schemes look better: change my mind.

I don't think those factions were the main focus..

Should I just ignore the strawman thrown up here?

No specific factions were mentioned.
Stormcasts are one of the most popular AoS beginner factions due to price and ease.
Necrons are a popular 40k faction due to a mix of easy to paint and a touch of nostalgia from films.

It’s easy to set a goal, but once it’s set the posts should generally remain in the same place.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Gotta agree with queen_anne's_revenge here. I kinda get where the OP is coming from- hell, when I started "painting" it was the Legend of Zagor board game done with enamel paints and Graffic Traffic pens. . People should not be discouraged from painting how they like but sometimes they do need a bit of guidance in the art of moderation and not trying to run before they can walk.

Below is one of my first 40k minis. It certainly has all the hallmarks of a painting beginner mini- globbed on paint, a Dark Angels green base (a nice little pinpoint to say that was certainly from the starter paint set as the 40k one came with DA green), an attempt at a freehand chapter symbol, but at no time did anyone belittle my painting (except for that GW manager who told me Jes Goodwin would be appalled with what I was doing to one of his sculpts after brush undercoating it with thick black paint in front of him. He ran it under the tap an introduced me to actually thinning my paints. ). That mini is one the few surviving firsts that wasn't stripped or lost somewhere and he sits on top of my cabinet with more recent work as a way of grounding me in a sense.

Spoiler:

A wise man once said, you learn from your mistakes. A wiser man said you learn from other people's mistakes.

While good and all, OP is advocating for GW to actively discourage new people from painting the "wrong" way. rather than letting them make "mistakes" that may cause them to quit the hobby.

I think there is a nugget of truth to what they are saying, however they are attacking it from the wrong angle.

I don't agree that people should be discouraged, however... I do think there should be some advisement given that certain paints are not exactly for beginners. But it is purely that, advisement. No one will stop someone from using them (or buying them). I may be wrong on this, but I'm sure GW (or FW) used to have some blurbs on some of their larger metal kits to the effect of "This is an advanced kit for experienced modellers..." etc. now, they're not going to turn down someone buying those kits but that is there as a way to say "Maybe stay away from these until later, m'kay?".

 Grimtuff wrote:
I think there is a nugget of truth to what they are saying, however they are attacking it from the wrong angle.

I don't agree that people should be discouraged, however... I do think there should be some advisement given that certain paints are not exactly for beginners. But it is purely that, advisement. No one will stop someone from using them (or buying them). I may be wrong on this, but I'm sure GW (or FW) used to have some blurbs on some of their larger metal kits to the effect of "This is an advanced kit for experienced modellers..." etc. now, they're not going to turn down someone buying those kits but that is there as a way to say "Maybe stay away from these until later, m'kay?".

Well yeah i think if op asked for say MORE instructional videos for specific things or In store classes on specific techniques and stuff, instead of a vague GW should limit things for new people, i think this would of been a non issue.

To me it seems that OP is advocating discouraging Metalic paints en masse for newcomers and shoehorn people into specific paint colours/techniques...

I still think that the mistakes he mentions are good. If someone slaps on a bunch of glossy metallic paint and it looks like dog crap Im pretty sure they will reflect WHY their model looks liek dog crap and it only takes one person to say: "Yo, little guy. The reason it looks like crap is youve used metalic colours too much and are overbearing and there is no shading. Look at XYZ tutorial & thory to learn moreetc. "

Making mistakes is all part of a learning curve and valuable lessons IMO. Also some kids just think lots of metallic will cool. And then it doesnt, and they learn their lesson.

 Desubot wrote:
instead of a vague GW should limit things for new people

Tell me how a little symbol that says "expert" is asking GW to limit anyone from doing anything?

Again; G U I D A N C E

LoftyS wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
instead of a vague GW should limit things for new people

Tell me how a little symbol that says "expert" is asking GW to limit anyone from doing anything?

Again; G U I D A N C E

Why are Metallics an expert paint.

they can look as bad as any other paints.

should we make all whites, yellows and reds also expert paints? they are notoriously hard to use and to look right.

additionally marketing certain things as expert will discourage new people from using them. thats the whole point and that is also what you are asking for in the first post. for GW to discourage new people from using metallics because reasons.

So do you feel good about purchasing "expert level" item?

"Clerk! I would like to purchase that "expert level" item off the shelf behind the counter my good sir!"
"Well, certainly dear patron. May I ask what level you are?"
"Well, I'm just getting into the hobby. I hav..."
"The corporate tells me that I must "guide" you away from the expert level item I'm afraid, since you are not an expert."
"But it's my mone..."
"Well you see here, it says 'expert level', and with your meager skills in painting, I'm afraid you will ruin this beautiful model kit. I can't bear to let such horrific event to befall on this kit! And the manufacturer has also advised me against selling this kit to newcomers because it's expert level."

 Desubot wrote:

LoftyS wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
instead of a vague GW should limit things for new people

Tell me how a little symbol that says "expert" is asking GW to limit anyone from doing anything?

Again; G U I D A N C E

Why are Metallics an expert paint.

they can look as bad as any other paints.

should we make all whites, yellows and reds also expert paints? they are notoriously hard to use and to look right.

This comment stands out perfectly here.
The fastest way for a beginner to kill a model is to try painting white or yellow.
Metallic paints have far better coverage and, IMO are easier to use when starting out.
Even colours like ushabti bone could give new painters an issue.

 Argive wrote:
To me it seems that OP is advocating discouraging Metalic paints en masse for newcomers and shoehorn people into specific paint colours/techniques...

I still think that the mistakes he mentions are good. If someone slaps on a bunch of glossy metallic paint and it looks like dog crap Im pretty sure they will reflect WHY their model looks liek dog crap and it only takes one person to say: "Yo, little guy. The reason it looks like crap is youve used metalic colours too much and are overbearing and there is no shading. Look at XYZ tutorial & thory to learn moreetc. "

Making mistakes is all part of a learning curve and valuable lessons IMO. Also some kids just think lots of metallic will cool. And then it doesnt, and they learn their lesson.

The problem is (which I mainly see on Reddit due to the echo chamber mentality the karma scores can cause), people seem to have forgotten what "C+C" means. It does not mean "Command and Conquer", "Cheese and Crackers" or other such nonsense, it means "Comments and Criticism". However this seems not to work in practice as anything other than fawning praise is downvoted, and thus; ignored.

You can advise someone on what they did incorrectly in painting or modelling as politely as you like, but I can guarantee; IME they will not take it well.