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It is an often repeated fact that there is maybe one space marine per imperial planet.

Space marines are long lived, psycho indoctrinated military geniuses. Could their accumulated wisdom and status as a living embodiment of the Emperor’s power be better leveraged by making each marine the Planetary Commander of his own planet instead of plugging them in large numbers into meat grinders across the galaxy?

I don't think that Marines are all geniuses. They are often the most vicious murdering scum from their recruitment world. Psycho indoctrinated murderers and the most ruthless scum of the galaxy, with their humanity blasted out of them by gene engineering secrets bargained for with the Chaos Gods themselves.

The Galaxy was torn apart by scum like that with delusions of grandeur before. Best that the frothing attack dogs of the Imperium are used up in battle, it is all they are good for. Humanity should be governed by humankind. Not it's most gruesome creations.

Ultramarines - yes. Blood Angels - probably OK. Black Templars or Carcharodons - probably not.

The Emperors original plan was to use some Legions as Governors after the Great Crusade.

And kill off those that had served their purpose and were no longer needed in his "perfect society" such the World Eaters and Night Lords.

The only ways they make better leaders than standard governors is eidetic memory and long lives. Memories can be sorted easily with some kind of implant I'd bet and we know they have rejuvenation so governors can easily live as long as Marines. Probably longer as they don't have a constant stream of people trying to kill them.

Anybody important can have a 400+ year life in 40k, there's tech for that.

 Da Boss wrote:
Humanity should be governed by humankind.

There's that too. The Emperor might have intended to keep using some of his Primarchs and their Legions after unifying the galaxy, but the Heresy happened. Marines are now outside the chain of command for a specific reason - a few exceptions aside (cough Ultramarines) they're no longer trusted with leading other forces. It would be against long-standing tradition to start assigning individual marines as Planetary Governors, and even with Roboute Guilliman back there would inevitably be numerous costly revolts as sidelined nobles defend their privileges with arms. It would destroy the Empire from within.

Chapters that are based on a specific world usually have their chapter master act as its governor. Is there any info on whether they do a better or worse job than ordinary humans?

Anyway, space marines aren't exactly trained for diplomacy and politics. On worlds that are heavily militarized, it'd probably work as they're supposed to be good commanders, but would you really want a space marine leading some random agri-world?

Even Ultramarines, the most mentally stable of the lot, are still Astartes. An Astartes job is to be the scalpel to the Imperial Guards Hammer. Just look what happened in 30k when Iron Warriors were left to garrison and rule over worlds.

Note I did say commander, not governor, but I see how for some planets that role may overlap.

Space Marine Chapters are quite undersized. They are supposed to be battalion-equivalent, yet have ten companies. A number fitting to a brigade.

I would increase support in Space Marine Chapters making them organized more like a brigade.

Something like this:

Space Marine Chapter is divided into three to four subchapters. Each has three to four companies for a 9 to 16 company Chapter. This follows the real life military rule of thirds / fourths where each military unit is divided into three or four smaller identical-with-each-other units because realistically keeping a track of and commanding gets way too hard with any more elements due to information flow.

Space Marine Chapter would have its own engineering, artillery, medical, reconnaissance, logistics, signals, etc... assets in terms of like artillery regiments, reconnaissance company, engineering battalion which would provide support for subchapters when they need it. And subchapters would also have these elements in more limited terms organic to their subchapter.

So basically the end result would be like 6500 per Chapter.

Chapter could deploy its entirety of let's say three subchapters with four companies each to a battlefield, or just deploy one subchapter of 1500 to battlefield where chapter is too big to be needed as a whole.

The whole point of making chapters that small is to act as a defence against corruption and rebellion. Ironic that the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels tend to work so loosely with related chapter that they are legions in all but the name.

 Tiennos wrote:
Chapters that are based on a specific world usually have their chapter master act as its governor. Is there any info on whether they do a better or worse job than ordinary humans?

Space Marine Home Worlds are generally Death or Feral Worlds, so it's difficult to compare. Ultramarines & Salamanders do a good job of looking after their worlds.

nareik wrote:
It is an often repeated fact that there is maybe one space marine per imperial planet.

Space marines are long lived, psycho indoctrinated military geniuses. Could their accumulated wisdom and status as a living embodiment of the Emperor’s power be better leveraged by making each marine the Planetary Commander of his own planet instead of plugging them in large numbers into meat grinders across the galaxy?

If the planet is at war its not a bad idea.......if its not then you will have problems depending on its requirments.

Marines are designed and trained to be perfect killers - putting one in charge of a Agri-planet may not work - alot will depend on the Marine and many are not suited to commanding their own kind......

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The whole point of making chapters that small is to act as a defence against corruption and rebellion. Ironic that the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels tend to work so loosely with related chapter that they are legions in all but the name.

Yeah but GW doesn't have the faintest idea of how much support military units need. Chapters are by their organization basically all-teeth no-tail which means any longer battle would see them out of supplies, ammo, food, etc... and assfucked by the Cold Bitch of Logistics. I just added the needed tail for the teeth to work realistically. Space Marine Chapters as they are consists only of the infantry companies. Military units need a lot more than that.

Take a look at real life units with roughly a thousand men. Those are some huge battalions that usually have three infantry companies. The rest are support.

There's making Chapters too small to rebel and there's making Chapters only teeth with no tail shooting the Chapters in both feet and kneecaps like the Codex Astartes does.

And the rebelled HH Astartes forces were in the hundred to tqo hundred thousand strong with navies anf guardsmen of their own.

A single chapter of a few thousand is not doing that. Especially with no navy (asides from Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers + Escorts) of its own or guardsmen to command.

The entire point is that they can't sustain long term operations. The whole of the imperium military structure is by design meant to prevent them being independent.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The whole point of making chapters that small is to act as a defence against corruption and rebellion. Ironic that the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels tend to work so loosely with related chapter that they are legions in all but the name.

Yeah but GW doesn't have the faintest idea of how much support military units need. Chapters are by their organization basically all-teeth no-tail which means any longer battle would see them out of supplies, ammo, food, etc... and assfucked by the Cold Bitch of Logistics. I just added the needed tail for the teeth to work realistically. Space Marine Chapters as they are consists only of the infantry companies. Military units need a lot more than that.

Take a look at real life units with roughly a thousand men. Those are some huge battalions that usually have three infantry companies. The rest are support.

There's making Chapters too small to rebel and there's making Chapters only teeth with no tail shooting the Chapters in both feet and kneecaps like the Codex Astartes does.

And the rebelled HH Astartes forces were in the hundred to tqo hundred thousand strong with navies anf guardsmen of their own.

A single chapter of a few thousand is not doing that. Especially with no navy (asides from Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers + Escorts) of its own or guardsmen to command.

Its similar with Knight Households - when you get an author actually writing the support elements that he feels they need - they suddenly become a much larger and much more interesting force. Constrast this with the stupidity of the codex writing where individual Knights just magically turn up and fight on their own.

Marines need a vast army of Serfs to operate, for whatever reason they have never appeared in the game - even though many are capable fighters, often enhanced or even failed aspirants. Some authors do show this

Although even a small Marine fleet of a Battlebarge, a couple of Cruisers and a few escorts does not need Marines on the ground to devestate a whole swathe of star systems with ease, especially since they are often the fast response force in the Sector.....

The Mentors chapter are used in the way you suggest, they are spread throughout the galaxy seconded to Imperial Guard regiments and other Space Marine chapters to provide guidance, training and support rather than fighting as a unified whole.

It makes for a pretty cool modelling opportunity, for example you can have a squad of mentors in your Blood Angel army if you get bored of painting red

nareik wrote:
Note I did say commander, not governor, but I see how for some planets that role may overlap.

Using them as local commanders seems kind of a waste. Sure, the average PDF might benefit from having a super-soldier to lead it but outside of the most war-torn part of the galaxy, the PDF will spend ages without seeing any action. Space marines are meant to be on the front lines and when there's a campaign going on somewhere, they are indeed often used as commanders.

"Those who can win a war well can rarely make a good peace, and those who could make a good peace would never have won the war.” - Winston Churchill

"Give a small boy a hammer, and he will find that everything he encounters needs pounding." - Abraham Kaplan

Space Marines have but one job to do: destroy whatever enemy they are aimed at usually the leaders of an army or uprising so then the PDF/AM/IG finishes them off.
I suspect their form of governance would be conducted the same as waging a war.
Much of the "fluff" I read on SMs would comment that when in command they would run IG/AM into the ground due to being so removed from the human condition (more-so than their usual commanders discarding them like tissue...).

These are diverse skills that are not efficiently applied to governance which is more a direct application of logistics and social psychology for prodding the population into needed activities.

Most Chapters specialize, so would lack some flexibility.
As the fluff for the Ultramarines says "Our Primarch does not allow us the luxury to specialize, we must master all elements of war.", so they are rightly pointed out as more suitable if they were required to rule.
The Salamanders would be a close second since they integrate with the population they draw from.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The whole point of making chapters that small is to act as a defence against corruption and rebellion. Ironic that the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels tend to work so loosely with related chapter that they are legions in all but the name.

Yeah but GW doesn't have the faintest idea of how much support military units need. Chapters are by their organization basically all-teeth no-tail which means any longer battle would see them out of supplies, ammo, food, etc... and assfucked by the Cold Bitch of Logistics. I just added the needed tail for the teeth to work realistically. Space Marine Chapters as they are consists only of the infantry companies. Military units need a lot more than that.

Take a look at real life units with roughly a thousand men. Those are some huge battalions that usually have three infantry companies. The rest are support.

There's making Chapters too small to rebel and there's making Chapters only teeth with no tail shooting the Chapters in both feet and kneecaps like the Codex Astartes does.

And the rebelled HH Astartes forces were in the hundred to tqo hundred thousand strong with navies anf guardsmen of their own.

A single chapter of a few thousand is not doing that. Especially with no navy (asides from Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers + Escorts) of its own or guardsmen to command.

Yeah, but what you have to bear in mind is that GW are historically, especially in recent years, very bad at remembering that marines are not an army. They're spec ops and propaganda. Precision strikes and boosting the morale of the main force.

Do you get fiction where an entire chapter fights a protracted campaign on a planet with minimal to no support? Yes. Is that completely nonsensical and entirely contradictory to what marines are? Oh, absolutely.

If a marine company shows up to a warzone, they'll analyse what the billions of guard already committed to the fight are doing and find the best places to slot themselves in to sabotage the enemy and bolster their allies.

Draw an analogy to another supersoldier: Is Captain America going to single handedly defeat the axis powers? No. Is he going to do the bulk of the fighting? No. Is his presence going to disrupt key German plans and bolster the morale of the american troops? Yes, that's what he's there for.

Probably not. They'd have no experience in governing civilian matters, making them unsuitable to the majority of work done by governors.

 Kroem wrote:
The Mentors chapter are used in the way you suggest, they are spread throughout the galaxy seconded to Imperial Guard regiments and other Space Marine chapters to provide guidance, training and support rather than fighting as a unified whole.

It makes for a pretty cool modelling opportunity, for example you can have a squad of mentors in your Blood Angel army if you get bored of painting red

Just read the recent novel with them - cool and enjoyed their combat-ready Thralls as well.

 Melissia wrote:
Probably not. They'd have no experience in governing civilian matters, making them unsuitable to the majority of work done by governors.

depends on the chapter. most ultramarines for example require their officers to have some expertise on the matter. I imagine other UM sucessors might as well. although only the ultramarines are likely to have much chance to practice this. most Marine chapters are hobbled at even developing these abilities by the nature of their homeworlds.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Probably not. They'd have no experience in governing civilian matters, making them unsuitable to the majority of work done by governors.

depends on the chapter. most ultramarines for example require their officers to have some expertise on the matter. I imagine other UM sucessors might as well. although only the ultramarines are likely to have much chance to practice this. most Marine chapters are hobbled at even developing these abilities by the nature of their homeworlds.

However he is talking here about 1 marine per planet so its not just the officer s but the line troops who vary greatly in having any kind of skill, interest or ability in ruling, most lack empathy and boredom would become a growing issue.

 Mr Morden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Probably not. They'd have no experience in governing civilian matters, making them unsuitable to the majority of work done by governors.

depends on the chapter. most ultramarines for example require their officers to have some expertise on the matter. I imagine other UM sucessors might as well. although only the ultramarines are likely to have much chance to practice this. most Marine chapters are hobbled at even developing these abilities by the nature of their homeworlds.

However he is talking here about 1 marine per planet so its not just the officer s but the line troops who vary greatly in having any kind of skill, interest or ability in ruling, most lack empathy and boredom would become a growing issue.

indeed, even among the Ultramarines not everyone has the aptitude. I mean I'm sure all Marines would make decent administrators, but using marines to do paperwork would be a horrific waste

Back in the 1980's some geeks thought an army was a pack of soccer hooligans handing out wedgies. The idea that modern armys numbered in the hundreds of thousands would have blown their minds, let alone military's with millions of soldiers. The men who created 40k had degrees in art. At most one of the guys participated in ECW reenactments. They thought one thousand marines would have been enough to conquer the WORRLLLDDDD!

 Red Marine wrote:
Back in the 1980's some geeks thought an army was a pack of soccer hooligans handing out wedgies. The idea that modern armys numbered in the hundreds of thousands would have blown their minds, let alone military's with millions of soldiers. The men who created 40k had degrees in art. At most one of the guys participated in ECW reenactments. They thought one thousand marines would have been enough to conquer the WORRLLLDDDD!

in fairness 40k is far from alone in the "BEHOLD MY INTERGALATIC ARMY OF 3 MILLION!"

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Kroem wrote:
The Mentors chapter are used in the way you suggest, they are spread throughout the galaxy seconded to Imperial Guard regiments and other Space Marine chapters to provide guidance, training and support rather than fighting as a unified whole.

It makes for a pretty cool modelling opportunity, for example you can have a squad of mentors in your Blood Angel army if you get bored of painting red

Just read the recent novel with them - cool and enjoyed their combat-ready Thralls as well.

I'm very interested in this things you speak of.

What's the book called ?

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The whole point of making chapters that small is to act as a defence against corruption and rebellion. Ironic that the Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Blood Angels tend to work so loosely with related chapter that they are legions in all but the name.

Yeah but GW doesn't have the faintest idea of how much support military units need. Chapters are by their organization basically all-teeth no-tail which means any longer battle would see them out of supplies, ammo, food, etc... and assfucked by the Cold Bitch of Logistics. I just added the needed tail for the teeth to work realistically. Space Marine Chapters as they are consists only of the infantry companies. Military units need a lot more than that.

Take a look at real life units with roughly a thousand men. Those are some huge battalions that usually have three infantry companies. The rest are support.

There's making Chapters too small to rebel and there's making Chapters only teeth with no tail shooting the Chapters in both feet and kneecaps like the Codex Astartes does.

And the rebelled HH Astartes forces were in the hundred to tqo hundred thousand strong with navies anf guardsmen of their own.

A single chapter of a few thousand is not doing that. Especially with no navy (asides from Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers + Escorts) of its own or guardsmen to command.

Keep in mind that a lot of the conflicts marines are involved in are planetary rebellions, and the default marine interdiction force has a starship capable of leveling cities. A lot can be accomplished when you can just threaten annihilation through orbital supremacy.