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Reds8n

Yet another painting thread that will go the exact same way as the last one?

'Fun'

8th Edition Rulebook, page 188 wrote:All you need to play an open play game are your painted miniatures, their datasheets, the core rules, a set of dice, a tape measure, a surface on which to play and a willing opponent

This is the only imperative remark on if you need to paint or assemble models. There's no mention of assembly, but there is of painting.

However, I fully concede that this apparently only applies for Open Play Games - so, for the Matched Play games that people on this site seem to prefer, you could easily just show up with unpainted, half-built models, and that's in the rules. Obviously, if your opponent isn't okay with that, they have every right to not play you.

On another note, this thread is just a repeat of the last one. I don't foresee it being productive.

Unfortunately the other one was shut, but I do believe there is constructive discussion to be had.

I enjoyed the discussion and different points of view from the last thread. Pretty disappointed it was locked since the scale of importance and relevance of the discussion was in line with the original topic. I guess discussing different view points is discouraged on this forum.

Well, on the required front - no. In the main rulebook, the rules only call for painted models in Open Play, and they don't even call for assembled ones anywhere.

We can't use the boxes as evidence, because many of them don't call directly call for painting (Know No Fear), unless you want to suggest that models from Know No Fear don't need painting, but all the others do.


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 Jjohnso11 wrote:
I guess discussing different view points is discouraged on this forum.

Depends if they can be done civilly or not. In the last thread, they could not.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Well, on the required front - no. In the main rulebook, the rules only call for painted models in Open Play, and they don't even call for assembled ones anywhere.

We can't use the boxes as evidence, because many of them don't call directly call for painting (Know No Fear), unless you want to suggest that models from Know No Fear don't need painting, but all the others do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
I guess discussing different view points is discouraged on this forum.

Depends if they can be done civilly or not. In the last thread, they could not.

They never do. Any thread that relates to the necessity of painting in miniatures always ends up descending into chaos and getting locked because people lose their tempers.

 Jjohnso11 wrote:
I enjoyed the discussion and different points of view from the last thread. Pretty disappointed it was locked since the scale of importance and relevance of the discussion was in line with the original topic. I guess discussing different view points is discouraged on this forum.

I think it was more that another poster and I got into an 'anatomy' measuring contest.

Edit: but since this topic was locked just a few minutes ago, I reported it.

Good grief another one?

HARD pass.

I'm fairly certain the box is meaning that assembly and painting are required if one wants them painted and/or assembled.

If you want to take it another way, sure, but that isn't likely the intent of the message, rather, it is to convey the notion that the box does not contain painted or assembled models.

I find it hard to imagine that the box "seeks" to create an imperative in-itself.

Feels like an attempt to stir the pot.

I mean...why wouldn't you want your stuff painted? I can't fathom those that don't bother. I know there are people that chase the meta, but even then at some point do you not own everything? Just paint them then. Or are people literally buying whats hot and not painting them and junking them off the second that something else is the new thing?

Not required, it just looks bad if you don't do it.

 Haasbioroid wrote:
I mean...why wouldn't you want your stuff painted? I can't fathom those that don't bother. I know there are people that chase the meta, but even then at some point do you not own everything? Just paint them then. Or are people literally buying whats hot and not painting them and junking them off the second that something else is the new thing?

Some people don't like painting.

Some people don't have the time or space for it, or have to chose game or art.

 Haasbioroid wrote:
I mean...why wouldn't you want your stuff painted? I can't fathom those that don't bother.

Maybe grey is your favorite color? Maybe you collect unassembled kits? Maybe you are color-blind? Maybe you just hate color? Or paint? Or have a phobia of paint? Maybe a painter ran over your dog, so you hate painters now?

I don't know, one could fathom all sorts of reasons. They might not be sufficient ones for me, or you, but people are relatively free to do what they want with the things they purchase.

Since this thread is an attempt to attach some weird phony authority to a completely subjective opinion, I'm going to go actual lawyer for a second:

Games Workshop is only allowed to show painted, assembled miniatures on their box instead of unpainted sprues if they put a legal disclaimer somewhere on the box that states what is necessary if the customer wants to obtain the result shown on the box.

This is not a mandate to the customer that they must paint their miniatures. It is a legal disclaimer, which is not present on the unmarked white boxes for online-only models (such as the basilisk, for example).

Finding a legal disclaimer on a box does not justify the point ishagu is trying to make. There is no requirement to paint miniatures in order to play the game Warhammer 40,000. At least, there is not one mandated by the company Games Workshop.

There can be one enforced by events, groups, and even company events run by GW. But a disclaimer on a box is not grounds for some internet donkey cave to tell some other stranger on the internet that they must paint their models to play. Sorry.

I guess the argument can be made that building is intended, but is it required?

No need to be sorry.

It needed to be said.

 Ishagu wrote:
Fun topic.

I was just in GW, and upon inspecting the actual model boxes, it says that painting is Required. We all know tournaments enforce this, as do narrative focused groups who respect the lore.
Would you say it should, or shouldn't be required for playing? At least as a long term goal.

Sticking to the context of the first post, rather than the general question in the title, then painting is required, just like assembly is required; in order to achieve the advertised product on the front and back of the box. If you want your models to look like what's advertised in the picture then GW is confirming on the box that there will be an element of assembly and painting to achieve that end result. They are covering themselves in terms of ensuring that their product advertising is not missleading to the customer.







As for the separate talk about in the game. Eh its Warhammer, which is like any tabletop wargame. What you and your opponent agree to is what goes.You can play with sticks and stones instead of models if you want. It's YOUR choice. If you don't want to paint don't paint, just be ready for the fact that some people might choose not to play with you and that formal events and GW stores might well bar you from entry. That's their choice too. And that's about it really, the rest of the discussion is just hammering out reasoning behind everyone's own standards and interpreations and attitudes, along with some drama when some people refuse/cannot understand a different viewpoint and get drawn into argument.

I'm by no means an expert but I wouldn't be surprised if the text talking about assembly and painting being required is likely a legal disclaimer to make it clear that the pictures on the box do not represent the contents exactly. It's the same reason any time you see food packaging in the UK with a picture that includes anything other than just the food in the pack it says "serving suggestion".

I don't think it should be required to play either, in the sense that applying a blanket rule to whether to paint something seems like a bad idea to me. I vastly prefer playing against painted models and rarely use unpainted models myself but I won't refuse a game against unpainted models and if other people are happy playing with and against unpainted models I don't think that's a problem.

Not that any of this matters since the last thread on this was locked for good reason. I'm not sure this one will survive much longer either.

Edit: ninja'd quite hard by the posters above it seems!

 H wrote:
I'm fairly certain the box is meaning that assembly and painting are required if one wants them painted and/or assembled.

100% agree. The wording on the box is merely there to protect GW from legal action if a buyer gets the box, opens it up and discovers that the models do NOT look like the picture on the box.
To us, that's obvious but to someone new to the hobby, there's a chance they won't know that "assembly and painting is required" to make them look like the models on the box.

-

I don't see a legal 'you'll need to do XYZ to actually get the thing on the front of the box' disclaimer being particularly relevant to hobby expectations.

Personally I paint, I prefer painted models, and I prefer when other people paint their models too. It helps my immersion and enriches the experience for me, as silly as that may sound with a game of plastic toy soldiers.

That said:

Painting an army is such a significant time investment that I have no problem with someone playing the game while making progress on their painting. I've chosen a basing process for my Tyranids that basically means I can't field a unit until it's fully painted, and if I didn't play a bunch over Tabletop Simulator, this would leave me with very little experience with the army I was actually painting- and if I hadn't magnetized everything, it would be very easy to build and paint myself into an unusable corner.

I think it's asking a lot for someone to buy an army (substantial investment), assemble it all as WYSIWYG, paint it fully, and only then be able to get a handle on how their army actually plays and discover if they've made a grievous mistake. So if someone says 'hey, I'm getting into Orks, but none of it's painted yet, and I'd like to run these armless guys as Burnas to try them out', I have absolutely no problem with that.

It's being respectful about it and having that conversation, rather than imposing terms ('I WILL use this 100% proxied army' or 'You CANNOT use that half-painted army'), that is most important IMO.

*facepalms* this again?

 Overread wrote:


Sticking to the context of the first post, rather than the general question in the title, then painting is required, just like assembly is required; in order to achieve the advertised product on the front and back of the box. If you want your models to look like what's advertised in the picture then GW is confirming on the box that there will be an element of assembly and painting to achieve that end result. They are covering themselves in terms of ensuring that their product advertising is not missleading to the customer.



As for the separate talk about in the game. Eh its Warhammer, which is like any tabletop wargame. What you and your opponent agree to is what goes.You can play with sticks and stones instead of models if you want. It's YOUR choice. If you don't want to paint don't paint, just be ready for the fact that some people might choose not to play with you and that formal events and GW stores might well bar you from entry. That's their choice too. And that's about it really, the rest of the discussion is just hammering out reasoning behind everyone's own standards and interpreations and attitudes, along with some drama when some people refuse/cannot understand a different viewpoint and get drawn into argument.

This. in 20 foot tall golden letters. I shouldn't say anything further, but i will.

In addition, I don't recommend using what is essentially a legal disclaimer for this "contract". i could pick at it further by pointing out that even if it was a good idea to it doesn't say assembly or painting with citadel specific things are required and yet if you do add bits that aren't GW, well, they don't tend to like that part, so I hear. Wouldn't that make using them as the basis at all a bit of a problem?

Some people dont enjoy painting. Can they still paly with their models? Absolutely. Will their models look good? No, but thats not part of the requirement to play the game. If i wanted to i could even play the game with bottlecaps really. The minis are only there to identify the units more easily. Keep in mind, thats my opinion for casual pickup games, if a TO says they require painting, then of course your army would need painting.

Warhammer is mulitple hobbies squished in one, not everyone is going to enjoy all aspects of it and they shouldnt be force unto them. Its basically telling people how to have fun with the game. Do all of us read the black library books? i doubt it, but theyre still part of the hobby and many people probably only read them without ever playing a game.

I personally try and put some paint on my models, but i dont force myself into having completely painted armies, i paint when i feel like it instead of bniging through 30 troops in one go, ill do them in batches of 5, on and off.

This argument that seem to be ever present in 40k is bordering on the ridiculous, just because the box has legal text on it, were trying to extrapolate that the game MUST be played with painted minis.

Personally, i find that my opponent having an enjoyable attitude in the game is much more important than them having a fully painted army (thats just a bonus).

heck, you don't need a rulebook, or dice, or miniatures, or a board to play warhammer 40,000. There are plenty of folks who play it on TTS.

This whole thing seems to be predicated on taking what would seem to me a folkway and elevating it to a more.

While people, generally, will likely support the normative claim that models are nominally intended to be built and painted, the proclamation that they must be or one is in the wrong as a matter of facts, well, I don't know that many people are going to buy that.

You can, of course, make that case as a matter of interpretation, but not really, as far as I can tell, as a matter of fact.

For the argument that some people don't enjoy painting...then I don't know why you play this game. The mechanics alone can't be enough to get you excited to drop a stupid amount of money in order to play.

Staring at a table of terrain with a nice looking army is a giant selling point.

And yes, you could play with sticks and stones and trash but why would you? There are better games to play that don't require you to do anything extra besides opening a box.

 Haasbioroid wrote:
For the argument that some people don't enjoy painting...then I don't know why you play this game. The mechanics alone can't be enough to get you excited to drop a stupid amount of money in order to play.

Staring at a table of terrain with a nice looking army is a giant selling point.

And yes, you could play with sticks and stones and trash but why would you? There are better games to play that don't require you to do anything extra besides opening a box.

The game isnt a top tier melt your brain level of strategy, but its a good entry level strategy game that is quite simple. And yes, for some people, the mechanics are what are interesting. Just because you can play other games doesnt mean you arent allowed to play 40k if you dont want to paint.

Stop with the gatekeeping.

And you can stop with the "gatekeeping" bs. Stop pretending to take some moral high ground.

Im in no way gatekeeping. I've still never actually played the game, I just got started in August. I'm only taking the position that at some point wouldn't you want your stuff painted?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like I'm honestly trying to figure out why someone wouldn't want there stuff painted. And i'd absolutely be fine playing with someone whos stuff isn't painted. But I'd also offer to paint it for them.