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https://www.goonhammer.com/meta-analysis-the-lvo-40k-championship/ Is there any many question that Ironhands are the real issue here?
Also - Maybe Raptors should have an assigned chapter tactic...Special characters with custom traits should not be allowed. Every other chapter has to choose to have special characters or custom traits.
Look at these absurdly broken White scars Ultras and Salamanders with those OP doctrines and super doctrines not even giving them a 50% WR. Heck...Dark angels without Doctrines actually outperform Ultramarines which have them. With their new supplement I expect them to be pretty close to Iornhands level.
Just putting forth the data man. I take it personal when people say all marines are OP when in fact they are really just complaining about a few specific supplements. Marines that aren't Ironhands or RG successors spamming assault cents...are just about average in competitive which should be the goal.
Xenomancers wrote: Just putting forth the data man. I take it personal when people say all marines are OP.
You're not 'just putting forth the data' my man. You are clearly, obviously and unequivocally trying to use data to enforce your claim that your blue Marine's aren't OP, it's actually just certain subsets of Marines that are OP. Which is bull.
All Marines are OP. IH, Fists and successors just hide the other subfactions because they are simply better in the current meta.
Your argument is also pointless. I have never heard anyone claim 'Blood Axes are OP', it's always 'Orks are OP'. If that stands for one faction it stands for another.
Uhh yes...I am using data to support my claim. That makes my claim strong. How long do the under 50% marines have to perform average for you to believe they are average.
blaktoof wrote: The number of IH players, with no other faction, was close to that for all the other marine factions combined.
Yes IH are a problem, no that doesn't mean the other marine lists aren't problems.
The best players in a large competitive event are taking the best army, so the handful of UM players likely were not the best players. Player skill is a factor in outcome. If you feel this is a personal statement on you, maybe it is- I don't care. A lot of people who play this game pick non competitve options for emotional reasons (fluff, personal interest, dislike of competitive options, etc.)
Until you have a tournament where most or all of the marine players take UM you can't make a comment on the statistics of how 8 of likely not the best players did in a 800+ person tournament. Without equal skill we can only make statements on the win rates of the highest population factions within a data set. The only valid outcome there is they are less popular than IH(likely because their rules while good, aren't as good)
This is nonsense. By the same token I could suggest that every army not playing Ironhands is not trying to win. People play with the armies they have and they do the best they can. This argument belongs in a bucket of chum. People who fly to the biggest tournament in the country and spend probably close to 1000 dollars overall are trying to win. Some people just aren't willing to play their blue marines as Ironhands. The only part you are right about is the biggest element of skill in a tournament like this is bringing the right list. No amount of generalship is going to let your Ultramarines outperform Ironhands. Ironhands are just better by a large margain straight up. When you look at the results. It is very clear. Jezz are you literally saying that because they are playing Ultramarines they aren't good players LOL.
The point is the LVO cannot be used to judge the state of the game. No ITC event can.
No one has once said that using the CA missions creates perfect faction equalibrium, but they do show a better level of balance. Yes, Astartes still perform well.
People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol
In the meantime, 3rd party homebrew rules cannot be used to gauge game balance because they fundamentally alter the game beyond what was designed officially.
People should not relax.
The reasons Marines are OP now goes beyond ain't having a good codex, they got a version of supplement rules that for free, no extra points, no Cp, stack ontop of their already good rules for units from the codex. No faction outside of Marines has gotten that treatment, getting side grades and strange alternative choices with restrictions that give up your normal bonuses is not the same. The reason people shouldn't relax is because at this point in order for GW to make non marine codexes balanced they will have to have layered rules like Marines for free, which is completely different than the normal codex model we have seen. Otherwise it will be like 7th where either your army has a decurion option or it doesn't and that alone decided if you have any chance to be competitive.
That is clearly not the case based on the data. Only some supplements are issues. Perhaps being able to assault turn 1 automatically with assualt cents is an oversite. Perhaps Ironhands super doctrine is absurd...Every army is getting a free supplement atm like eldar and TS...you are literally complaining about the direction of the game.
People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol
The sky isn't falling, the game isn't ruined, but there is a problem, and saying otherwise is
Space Marine players have definitely earned this, i never said otherwise. For years, and years and years they were the joke of the competitive scene. If any faction deserves it - they do, but other factions do need to be brought in line or some of the SM factions need adjustments.
If every SM chapter was as powerful as Ultramarines i doubt we'd even be talking about this.
No we wouldn't. I agree with that. Dakka has an anti SM bias..It is obvious.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/07 02:28:49
The point is the LVO cannot be used to judge the state of the game. No ITC event can.
No one has once said that using the CA missions creates perfect faction equalibrium, but they do show a better level of balance. Yes, Astartes still perform well.
People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol
In the meantime, 3rd party homebrew rules cannot be used to gauge game balance because they fundamentally alter the game beyond what was designed officially.
People should not relax.
The reasons Marines are OP now goes beyond ain't having a good codex, they got a version of supplement rules that for free, no extra points, no Cp, stack ontop of their already good rules for units from the codex. No faction outside of Marines has gotten that treatment, getting side grades and strange alternative choices with restrictions that give up your normal bonuses is not the same. The reason people shouldn't relax is because at this point in order for GW to make non marine codexes balanced they will have to have layered rules like Marines for free, which is completely different than the normal codex model we have seen. Otherwise it will be like 7th where either your army has a decurion option or it doesn't and that alone decided if you have any chance to be competitive.
That is clearly not the case based on the data. Only some supplements are issues. Perhaps being able to assault turn 1 automatically with assualt cents is an oversite. Perhaps Ironhands super doctrine is absurd...Every army is getting a free supplement atm like eldar and TS...you are literally complaining about the direction of the game.
People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol
The sky isn't falling, the game isn't ruined, but there is a problem, and saying otherwise is
Space Marine players have definitely earned this, i never said otherwise. For years, and years and years they were the joke of the competitive scene. If any faction deserves it - they do, but other factions do need to be brought in line or some of the SM factions need adjustments.
If every SM chapter was as powerful as Ultramarines i doubt we'd even be talking about this.
No we wouldn't. I agree with that. Dakka has an anti SM bias..It is obvious.
Do you actually believe that what non sm factions are getting in pa is equal to what sm got? The internally balanced codex? Nope. Free buffs just for buying a supplement, no cp or points required? Nope.
C:sm is a change in codex design philosophy and until everyone has a codex that follows that philosophy it's not an even playing field.
And someone should tell Martel to copy that ba list in that tournament. Three squads of Sanguinary Guards and in the top ten. Sounds like ba ain't so bad after all.
Do you actually believe marines were at an even starting point? OFC not. The rules they got were a direct fix to the fact that they were terrible. Turns out the doctrines and new strats and such were s perfect fix as it puts an army like ultras/Salamnders/whitescars square in the middle. Just granted by what I have seen from DA - they will also be above the curve. If you can't acknowledge that you are blind. SM were hands down the worst army in the game. BY A LONG SHOT - with the exception of GK (who are basically just marines). You need to get used to marine armies not being a free win for once. Plus - you should really stop referring to the new supplement marines as a whole entity - each supplement is basically a different army just like TS/DG/and CSM are different armies.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Do you actually believe that what non sm factions are getting in pa is equal to what sm got? The internally balanced codex? Nope. Free buffs just for buying a supplement, no cp or points required? Nope.
No, in fact i think Chaos got the most, the new "2.0" CSM codex was a joke compared to what SMs got, and while PA was good they need fundamental changes to bring them to the same level.
I think a lot of the "anti SM bias" here is rooted in the fact GW has given so much attention to this faction recently and the sweeping changed they got actually had an impact on there viability, to the point some of the chapters are overtuned.
It's not just Chaos.
As a choas player I can confirm they are just complaining about having to soup to be powerful.
You can take a supreme command of TS with scarb occults and shoot twice with them every turn at +1 to wound. 2 CP (can give them a 3++ save with the right powers and bring back up to 3 a turn) (this will kill roughly 60 chaff infantry)
You can take a batallion of emperors children and shoot twice with a 20 man noise marine every turn with +1 str and +1 damage. 3CP (can give them a 5+ FNP with a stratagem) (this averages about 30 primaris marines killed)(or kill nearly 2 IK)
Both a 2+ to hit reroll 1's with the correct buffs (only 2 required).
This will practically destroy every infantry on the table if you can get LOS. It can also destroy vehicals too NP. The issue with CSM is they put all their eggs in 1 basket where a marine player gets a lot of utility out of auras.
Choas was already at a much stronger starting point than loyalist. They didn't get as much in their supplements but unless we are talking about Ironhands or RG (IF is also out of control not sure why they don't preform as well but they are too broken). They are in roughly the same position.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/07 03:13:48
They've been bad a lot. 7th before gladius, 5th ed, most of 8th.
Gladius is a rare case...yet again. SM players needed about 400 free points to compete. Imagine having to pay points for a razorback? Plus the stuff that came after gladius was just silly. Ynnari...Decruian formation...deamonic incursion...it's best to forget about the end of 7th because it was just a cash grab. Plus I can confirm the power level of gladius wasn't really that high - it did okay in tournament because it could but hordes of crappy units on objectives - it wasn't blowing anyone off the table like ynnari. (funny anecdote - with ynnari in 7th I basically won a 2000 vs 4000 point battle again 2 DW armies because I held my entire army in reserve and my GSC ally got evaporated on turn 1 from 8 drop pods units. I came out of reserve and nearly destroyed their whole army in one turn and their preceding turn (2x soul burst per kill formation))
Less than mid-teir. That's bad. If you haven't seen a SM list top a GT all year, it's bad. This is bad.
How many other Factions were topping GTs last year? There's like, what? A couple dozen or so Factions in the same. Maybe more? And for the most part, you only see the same 3 or 4 Factions "topping" GTs. That would imply that almost everyone is "bad".
If you look at the history of 8th. It's had several different metas.
We had the first meta which was dominated by
Storm raven and character spam armies at index level
choas and imperial soup once armies started getting codex (also pre nerf tyranids)
Then the ynnari spears meta
Then the Castellan meta. (This overlapped with ynnari meta)
Now the Ironhands meta.
Eldar have done really well in every meta - SM have been good in only the last.
Martel732 wrote: So basically we are gonna have the "have" chapters and the "have not" chapters. And the xenos and such will be tuned to the haves. Wonderful.
From what I have seen - It's not Ironhands level. Russ commanders got a big buff. Also some of these new custom traits seem to make Infantry in to absolute gods rapid firing at 18"???? Some decent buffs to scions as well. Imagine a whole army of (8points?) scions shooting at ap -3?
Less than mid-teir. That's bad. If you haven't seen a SM list top a GT all year, it's bad. This is bad.
How many other Factions were topping GTs last year? There's like, what? A couple dozen or so Factions in the same. Maybe more? And for the most part, you only see the same 3 or 4 Factions "topping" GTs. That would imply that almost everyone is "bad".
If you look at the history of 8th. It's had several different metas.
We had the first meta which was dominated by
Storm raven and character spam armies at index level
choas and imperial soup once armies started getting codex (also pre nerf tyranids)
Then the ynnari spears meta
Then the Castellan meta. (This overlapped with ynnari meta)
Now the Ironhands meta.
Eldar have done really well in every meta - SM have been good in only the last.
Xeno, remind me, which army besides Marines was spamming Stormravens? Because Marines were, according to you, only good in the last of that.
Forgive me - That was index 40k though and I think a brief period were marines had the only codex with DG and GK. I always look at that with an asterisk.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/07 03:43:55
The point is the LVO cannot be used to judge the state of the game. No ITC event can.
No one has once said that using the CA missions creates perfect faction equalibrium, but they do show a better level of balance. Yes, Astartes still perform well.
People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol
In the meantime, 3rd party homebrew rules cannot be used to gauge game balance because they fundamentally alter the game beyond what was designed officially.
People should not relax.
The reasons Marines are OP now goes beyond ain't having a good codex, they got a version of supplement rules that for free, no extra points, no Cp, stack ontop of their already good rules for units from the codex. No faction outside of Marines has gotten that treatment, getting side grades and strange alternative choices with restrictions that give up your normal bonuses is not the same. The reason people shouldn't relax is because at this point in order for GW to make non marine codexes balanced they will have to have layered rules like Marines for free, which is completely different than the normal codex model we have seen. Otherwise it will be like 7th where either your army has a decurion option or it doesn't and that alone decided if you have any chance to be competitive.
That is clearly not the case based on the data. Only some supplements are issues. Perhaps being able to assault turn 1 automatically with assualt cents is an oversite. Perhaps Ironhands super doctrine is absurd...Every army is getting a free supplement atm like eldar and TS...you are literally complaining about the direction of the game.
People need to relax about Marines. 6 months of being in top, years of being rock bottom prior to that. The sky isn't falling. Go play chess if you want a perfectly balanced experience right now, and homebrew it so white doesn't always go first lol
The sky isn't falling, the game isn't ruined, but there is a problem, and saying otherwise is
Space Marine players have definitely earned this, i never said otherwise. For years, and years and years they were the joke of the competitive scene. If any faction deserves it - they do, but other factions do need to be brought in line or some of the SM factions need adjustments.
If every SM chapter was as powerful as Ultramarines i doubt we'd even be talking about this.
No we wouldn't. I agree with that. Dakka has an anti SM bias..It is obvious.
Do you actually believe that what non sm factions are getting in pa is equal to what sm got? The internally balanced codex? Nope. Free buffs just for buying a supplement, no cp or points required? Nope.
C:sm is a change in codex design philosophy and until everyone has a codex that follows that philosophy it's not an even playing field.
And someone should tell Martel to copy that ba list in that tournament. Three squads of Sanguinary Guards and in the top ten. Sounds like ba ain't so bad after all.
Do you actually believe marines were at an even starting point? OFC not. The rules they got were a direct fix to the fact that they were terrible. Turns out the doctrines and new strats and such were s perfect fix as it puts an army like ultras/Salamnders/whitescars square in the middle. Just granted by what I have seen from DA - they will also be above the curve. If you can't acknowledge that you are blind. SM were hands down the worst army in the game. BY A LONG SHOT - with the exception of GK (who are basically just marines). You need to get used to marine armies not being a free win for once. Plus - you should really stop referring to the new supplement marines as a whole entity - each supplement is basically a different army just like TS/DG/and CSM are different armies.
Whoa! Back up the hyperbole train. Did sm need some help? Yup sure did. Were they the worst army in the game? Nope. Chaos daemons, gk (who were a separate army, as you point out about other factions), and r&h were fighting over that "honor ". The problem is that gw over corrected. And now everyone else has to play catch up. And yes, ih, rg, and if are stronger than the other chapters. That doesn't make those other chapters "mid tier " compared to other factions. Just other chapters.
As to your post below (I'm not quoting it. This chain is already long enough) yes csm players don't like souping. Or relying on gimmicks like the possessed bomb. Or always playing Alpha Legion because that's our only useful legion trait. But that's the thing. Sm have options other factions don't. Csm rely on gimmicks. Eldar have flyers. Tau triptide.
I've already said this is all due to gw changing design philosophy mid edition and it'll be corrected when we get more new codexes. Till then just accept that sm are top dogs. Stop denying and start enjoying.
And as far as you playing "choas" dude you literally just proved you can't spell it.
Martel732 wrote: Is IH stupid or the new normal? My money is on the new normal.
Among who?
Not everyone is a bandwagon-jumping meta-chasing list jumper.
I have an Ultramarine army. I don't care if Iron Hands are better. My army is an Ultramarine army.
Same. Night Lords or bust. Feth bandwagons.
Good for you that you have some decency about you and play the army you like. You have my respect. Some people in here claim that means you are probably a bad player though (not me) do you agree with that?
However. If you actually read my post youd see I mentioned GK as contenders for worst army all space marine factions were in the 40% WR area. Daemons are no where near that though. In fact they are one of the winningest armies in the game as a primary detachment on 40k stats. 52% for the entire eddition also 52% in the most recent data pull.
Spoletta wrote: Loyalists have a book for each chapter, they are obviously going to have a greater characterization than CSM legions.
That is why i consider all SM chapters as different factions, but don't do the same for fleets/legions/septs whatever. They don't have dedicated books.
Which is pretty gakky. The Chaos Legions differ more than Marine Chapters do, and the Legions are hardly the most divergent from one another.
I totally agree. I am a strong supporter of the idea of 1 marine book with maybe a few special stratagems and units that different chapters have access to. You can do that in 1 book. GW makes 10 times the money doing it this way. They will likely do the same with choas - CSM is also hugely popular and they can make 10x the money there too by making special books for each legion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/07 23:57:58
Ishagu wrote: Marines are becoming more focused on Primaris, which is a less varied model line.
GW probably focused on bigger chapter rule diversity because in the long run there will be less model diversity. I imagine a Primaris only book in the future.
Alternatively none of this will matter in a few months once 9th edition comes out. There's a bit too much hysteria on this forum, especially considering that the greatest problems relating to the meta occur under a third party ruleset that doesn't use the official missions of the game. If you're not happy with the ITC, take it up with them. I'm sure they can homebrew the game some more.
That is a very good point. 9th is coming and this is likely just cash grab at the end of 7th. Also a great point about ITC. It is house-ruled 40k no matter how you slice it. Kind of like taking kick boxers and having them fight using rules for traditional boxing. Wed find out who the best boxer was - but not even close to finding the best kickboxer.
Ishagu wrote: Meta built around 3rd party homebrew rules doesn't mean anything for the majority of Players and is no indication of balance.
If the Iron Hands dominate to the same extent when using the official mission rules, then we can raise a complaint to GW.
Spoiler: They don't.
Spoiler, they absolutely fething do, and you beating this horse to death is asinine.
CA MISSIONS BENEFIT IH, RG, AND IF EVEN MORE THAN ITC DOES. Sorry your army is OP, STFU about it.
Uhhh...I havn't seen any data to suggest this. Plus on a table in which not every building blocks LOS - the army that goes first has a major advantage no matter what armies are on the table. The most recent GT at GW which uses GW missions also has a lot more list variety in the finalists. So there is data going against your point. Ishagu is right here.
Ishagu wrote: Meta built around 3rd party homebrew rules doesn't mean anything for the majority of Players and is no indication of balance.
If the Iron Hands dominate to the same extent when using the official mission rules, then we can raise a complaint to GW.
Spoiler: They don't.
Spoiler, they absolutely fething do, and you beating this horse to death is asinine.
CA MISSIONS BENEFIT IH, RG, AND IF EVEN MORE THAN ITC DOES. Sorry your army is OP, STFU about it.
Uhhh...I havn't seen any data to suggest this. Plus on a table in which not every building blocks LOS - the army that goes first has a major advantage no matter what armies are on the table. The most recent GT at GW which uses GW missions also has a lot more list variety in the finalists. So there is data going against your point. Ishagu is right here.
If there is no data to suggest this then how can we know Ishagu is correct? Didn't that GWGT also block LOS on first floor? Doesn't getting more LOS benefit the much more shooty IH?
I havn't seen data that GW missions help marines more than ITC - have seen evidence to the contrary. Wasn't aware first floor blocked for GW. So GW is not house ruling their own events? That sounds like horse pucky but I have no idea. In ether case the missions are still different and did not seem to favor marines more. CA missions force you to move around more for sure - that doesn't benefit marines at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/07 21:03:19
Wrong. That Tank (Repulsor) is overpriced in a Black Templar army and can easily be destroyed by a unit that costs half the points. Literally.
Why are you nerfing the tank when it's chapter bonuses and relics that are making the biggest improvement?
Also tactics shouldn't cost anything lol. They just need a few tweaks here and there, nothing even that substantial. You just nerd to decrease effectiveness by 10% or so in a few cases. Those are the margins.
Correct. Actually the majority of the space marine units are only good if you take them as Ironhands. A few units are better as RG.
The Repuslor executioner for example. Is very overcosted. 340ish points in it's most expensive configuration. Which is more than a friggen storm surge. Without an ironhands relic it is literally unplayable. This tank should be in the 280 point range. It is only moderately better than a LR commander. Also it is vastly inferior to 2 Admech dune crawlers. Who believe it or not have access to reroll all hits auras and have a natural 5++ save that they can reroll 1's with. 2 I think is about 240 points. 330-340 for a executioner is a dang joke.
This is the real probably with the unbalance of supplements. When a marine combo is good - 20 times more people play it. So it basically always wins just based on attrition making it look worse than it really is. Granted the Ironhands supplement is TOO MUCH. Which was pretty easy to see from the start. What people fail to realize is that most of the units in the marine codex are still really bad even with the doctrines. The doctrines were a specific fix for an entire army that was roughly 20-30% overcosted to begin with. Whats silly is they raised the cost of an executioner and left the obviously over-costed repulsor the same when both those units actually needed drops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 20:55:55
Ishagu wrote: Giving every sub faction a seperate codex isn't needed to have varied playstyles, clearly.
The new Astartes codex and supplements have already created multiple varied playstyles. There's nothing inconsistent about what I've said - You guys should stop moving the goal posts. Psychic awakening has given other factions nearly the same volume of unique rules in some cases. Alpha Legion also have a set of relics, traits, strats, etc. As do Iron Warriors, Night Lords, etc. Not as much, but not far off.
Some of you guys are literally complaining that GW have given a faction a lot of rules. Once 9th drops - and it will as history repeats itself every few years, the cycle will start again and all the complainers will forget and move on to complain about something else. I suspect many of you have a complaint fetish lol. I know someone like that in person.
Yeah other factions got some stuff in pa but it pales in comparison to what loyalist marines have gotten.
We may have new warlord traits and relics but without strategems that allow taking multiples of each cheaply like loyalists got you still only ever see the best ones over and over. And without the kind of internal codex balance that c:sm had you still just see the same old units played on the table.
Basically pa comes down to a few new strategems per factions unless those factions are loyalist astartes.
No one denies that marines got the most. They were also at the worst starting place.
So here is the example I would go for.
Marines Were D- Tier and their supplements brought them up to between a B+ to A++ level.
Eldar were A- and their supplement brought them to an A+.
CSM were a C+ and they were brought to a B+.
Tyranids Were a D + Brought to a C-.(Probably the only army that has any right to complain from these supplements)
AM and Tau seem to be getting maybe a grade level or a 1/2 grade level increase.
The only problem is the A++ supplements which is as always - the one or 2 overpowered codex weve had all edition.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: LOL Chaos Marines were not brought up that far. Outside Alpha Legion they're dependent on CP to operate at all.
Every army needs CP to operate. Choas stratagems are flat out better than marine stratagems.
Before c:sm and the supplements I'd agree. Now not so much.
Can we at least agree that no army should require cp to function properly?
My personal preference would be to remove stratagems all together and reblance the game entirely. However - with their existence they are essential to every army using them no army doesn't derive a huge boon from them. CSM might be more reliant on them but that is because they have some of the best strats in the game (Shoots twice with additional buffs) plus some of their new stratas are really good too. It's not an argument to say that an army isn't good because it needs to use stratagems to be strong. That is every army really.
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JNAProductions wrote: Sorta like how Salamanders definitely DON'T have a better Vets Of The Long War-one that works on everything, rather than Infantry only.
Nope. That's not true. Definitely doesn't exist.
Where is the space marine stratagem that lets any infantry unit shoot twice to combine it with? Or the Ultra combo.
EC with +1 damage and str +1 to wound and shoot twice. 4cp from 3 stratagems. On a 20 man noise marine with prescience next to a lord - kills 38 primaris marines or 2 knights. Space marines have nothing compare to that stratagem wise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 20:37:11
JNAProductions wrote: 60 shots
175/3 hits (2+ rerollable)
175/6 wounds (4+, no rerolls)
175/18 unsaved (3+ save)
175/9 damage, or 19.44 per volley (doubled, of course, with Endless Cacophony)
So, you are NOT killing two Knights-you're killing one, and maybe bracketing a second. Unless the Knight has Armor of the Sainted Ion, which outright HALVES the damage dealt. And this costs you 340 points and 4 CP, while being VERY fragile. If you don't get T1, you don't get this combo against a tournament list.
You are right - it's 40 wounds on average to a knight. The point is without these stratagems and just presence you deal just 3.5 wounds to a knight. Space marines don't have offensive stratagems which can ramp the damage of a unit by over 1000%. Not even saying this is the best way to run a choas army. Just stating marines don't get stratagems like this. It is a good thing too. If aggressors or cents had access to anything like this they would destroy your entire army in 1 turn.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Believe it or not most of the stuff I own could well be worse as Iron Hands. I could buy a bunch of new units and play Iron Hands, but then so could anyone else.
So your stuff is better than the IH equivalent? Sounds OP!
Or maybe he'd prefer sticking to his chosen faction instead of jumping on bandwagons for easy wins?
There are a few of us out there.
Yes - according to some. Players that make this choice aren't even trying to win and or can't possibly be good players- cause they coulda just played Ironahnds. So the results these armies get can just be ignored. They can't possibly be skilled players.
Vilehydra wrote: Quick digression back to Salamanders VoTlw, it is better on its own as it can be used on any salamanders unit but it doesn't combo as well with the army due to all SM 'criticals' happening on unmodified 6's where as Chaos crits happen on modified 6's which syncs particularly well with stuff like the crimson crown, blades of putrefaction, or doubleshoot (endless cacophany?).
Still pushes Chaos as the wombo-combo faction as they are relying on cumulative buffs to pull stuff off
The salamander VotLW is more versatile
The Chaos VotLW can be more powerful
Well some of us don't want wombo-combos. If I wanted wombo-combos I'd play a fething ccg.
Hey I am with you. Game feels so much like MTG right now I barely want to play competitive. Cause like in MTG - you can't win without taking the cheesiest stuff.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 22:52:17
flandarz wrote: It does imply that SMs are far less reliant on their Stratagems, giving them more flexibility in Detachments (cuz they don't need to farm CP as much) and thus what they field.
My personal stance is that this game is WAY too killy, to the point where who gets first go practically decides the victor. Stratagems obviously exacerbate this problem.
SM are reliant on their auras. Choas is more reliant on spells. Their spells are better too though. In a game that is all about consistency that is also as killy as this one - auras blanket buffing most of your units is more reliable because no matter what your opponent kills you still have the strength to fight back. CSM much more bursty. Realistically in match up against each other the game is decided by who goes first. You deep strike 10 combi plasma terms and kill 500 points in thee shooting phase the same turn you just got 2-3 disco lords into combat...the game is over. Ignoring stuff like Ironhands which have an indestructible unit screening 3 chaplain dreads which will eat 3 disco lords for breakfast the next turn.
The game designers really need to examine the combos in each book with thought put behind every stratagem/ability that can mesh well with it. The probably need to come up with a new version of character protection (I honestly had no issue with characters being part of units - just get rid of LOS and it's not a problem) Vehicles regardless of wounds should not have character protection.
