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These were my ideas for two tiered Legion traits. Keep in mind I'm for consolidation of Death Guard and Thousand Sons, getting rid of elements that make the codex try to force Renegades down our throats (so no don't ask me if I considered them, because I haven't and won't for a CSM codex, but the current ones did give have parts I wanted to incorporate anyway), and want revised unit stats. Oh, and vehicles without the Daemon keyword getting Traits. Anyway, not a full codex post because who really cares? I got loads of ideas, some of which are better when looking at core rule changes too, but oh well.
1. Black Legion: Units get +1 to their Leadership Stat. Units with this Legion Tactic may choose to Charge or shoot in the shooting phase after Falling Back, but not both. In addition, Black Legion Detachments may take a Chaos Terminator unit as a Troop choice for every Chosen unit taken.
2. Alpha Legion: Your opponent must subtract 1 from their hit rolls when targeting units with this Legion Tactic with a shooting attack that is more than 12" away. In addition, when a unit with this Legion Tactic destroys an enemy unit, roll a D6. On a 5+, you gain a Command Point. You cannot gain this benefit more than once per turn.
3. Word Bearers: You cannot lose more than one model due to a failed Morale test. Models with this Legion Tactic may charge in the same turn they advance, and may reroll any Advance roll. In addition, Word Bearers Detachments may take a Possessed Marines as a Troop choice for every Chosen unit taken.
4. Night Lords: Every model killed by a unit with this Legion counts as two models for the purposes of Morale tests. In addition, melee attacks that roll a 6+ to wound are treated as AP-5, and any Invulnerable Saves are treated at a -1 penalty. In addition, Night Lords Detachments may take a Raptors squad as a Troop choice for every Chosen unit taken.
5. Death Guard: Each time a wound would be lost on a model with this Legion Tactic, roll a D6. On a 6+, the wound is ignored. If a unit has a similar ability, they may reroll results of 1. Units with this Legion Tactic do not suffer a penalty when rolling to hit while moving with Heavy Weapons, or advancing and firing with Assault Weapons. In addition, Death Guard Detachments must all have the Mark of Nurgle, and may take Plague Marines as a Troop choice.
6. World Eaters: Units with this Legion Tactic gain +1 to their Strength characteristic and a +1 to hit with melee attacks in a turn they charge, were charged, or made a Heroic Intervention. Units with this Legion Tactic add +1 to all Charge and Advance rolls. In addition, World Eaters Detachments must all have the Mark of Khorne, and may take Berserker Marines as a Troop choice.
7. Iron Warriors: Shooting attacks made by units with this Legion Tactic ignore the benefits of cover that might be received by your opponent's units. Attacks made against Monsters or Vehicles reroll wound rolls of 1. In addition, Iron Warriors Detachments may take a Havocs squad as a Troop choice for every unit of Chosen taken.
8. Emperors Children: Units with this Legion Tactic receive +1" to their Movement Characteristic. Units with this Legion Tactic always fight first in the fight phase, even if they did not charge that turn or they were charged themselves. In addition, Emperors Children Detachments must all have the Mark of Slaanesh, and may take Noise Marines as a Troop choice.
9. Thousand Sons: Overwatch attacks are considered on a hit of 5+ to hit. Psykers add +6" to any range of any Psyker Powers. In addition, Thousand Sons Detachments must all have the Mark of Tzeentch and may take Rubric Marines as a Troop choice.
That's about all I got. I'm sure some people will disagree on how I handled Children and Sons, and I agree, which is why I'm more curious about feedback for those particular ones.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/21 22:44:32
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
1. Black Legion: Units get +1 to their Leadership Stat. Units with this Legion Tactic may choose to Charge or shoot in the shooting phase after Falling Back, but not both. In addition, Black Legion Detachments may take Chaos Terminators as a Troop choice.
Seems fun to use, but isn't that just straight up better than the Ultramarine version? Also, while I personally like being able to make non-troops troops, it's no longer a thing for anyone except CSM, so I feel slightly weird about expanding it.
2. Alpha Legion: Your opponent must subtract 1 from their hit rolls when targeting units with this Legion Tactic with a shooting attack that is more than 12" away. In addition, when a unit with this Legion Tactic destroys an enemy unit, roll a D6. On a 5+, you gain a Command Point. You cannot gain this benefit more than once per turn.
I wonder if this should, perhaps, get the same change that the Raven Guard version did? I.e. always count as being in cover, and inflict -1 to hit when you're actually on terrain. I like the command point mechanic, but it's probably strong enough to be a legion trait in its own right. Also, the "more than once per turn" part is redundant, if I"m not mistaken, as current rules say that you can only (re)generate a command point once per game round. But maybe that's a matched play only rule.
3. Word Bearers: You cannot lose more than one model due to a failed Morale test. Models with this Legion Tactic may charge in the same turn they advance, and may reroll any Advance roll, but must accept the result of the reroll of done so. In addition, Word Bearers Detachments may take Possessed Marines as a Troop choice.
The highlighted part is redundant. If you reroll a die, the first result is dust in the wind. No need to specify that this reroll works like any other reroll. Again, I'm not sure how I feel about making non-troops troops. Aren't "possessed bombs" a thing right now? Advance and Charge is useful, but I'm not clear on how it fits the Word Bearers thematically.
4. Night Lords: Every model killed by a unit with this Legion counts as two models for the purposes of Morale tests. In addition, melee attacks that roll a 6+ to wound are treated as AP-5, and any Invulnerable Saves are treated at a -1 penalty. In addition, Night Lords Detachments may take Raptors as a Troop choice.
I know that scions just got something similar, but counting casualties twice seems like it might be a bit much as an army-wide thing. Kill 2 models over the course of an entire turn, and a Ld7 unit is suddenly losing dudes on a 2+. AP-5 is curiously better than similar rules possessed by things like genestealers and daemonettes (though the extra AP will rarely matter against most targets). -1 to invulns on top of that seems a bit odd; how does being spooky make you better at stabbing a dodging wych or stabbing your way through a forcefield? And again, the troop thing. I feel like you might be swinging the pendulum too hard in the other direction here.
5. Death Guard: Each time a wound would be lost on a model with this Legion Tactic, roll a D6. On a 6+, the wound is ignored. If a unit has a similar ability, they may reroll results of 1. Units with this Legion Tactic do not suffer a penalty when rolling to hit while moving with Heavy Weapons, or advancing and firing with Assault Weapons. In addition, Death Guard Detachments must all have the Mark of Nurgle, and may take Plague Marines as a Troop choice.
Fine by me.
6. World Eaters: Units with this Legion Tactic gain +1 to their Strength characteristic and a +1 to hit with melee attacks in a turn they charge, were charged, or made a Heroic Intervention. Units with this Legion Tactic add +1 to all Charge and Advance rolls. In addition, World Eaters Detachments must all have the Mark of Khorne, and may take Berserker Marines as a Troop choice.
Sounds good.
7. Iron Warriors: Shooting attacks made by units with this Legion Tactic ignore the benefits of cover that might be received by your opponent's units. Shooting attacks that are conducted at half the range of a weapon's max range count as two hits on a 6+ to hit. In addition, Iron Warriors Detachments may take Havocs as a Troop choice.
Really feels like troop havocs would end up being a bit much. Sure, they'll die reasonably quickly, but you're saving at least 120 points in a batallion that would normally go into cultists in a batallion and putting them directly into better-than-usual heavy weapons that can hide out of line of sight and then shoot without penalty.
8. Emperors Children: Units with this Legion Tactic receive +1" to their Movement Characteristic. Units with this Legion Tactic always fight first in the fight phase, even if they did not charge that turn or they were charged themselves. In addition, Emperors Children Detachments must all have the Mark of Slaanesh, and may take Noise Marines as a Troop choice.
Sure. I've rarely felt that 1" of movement really makes a distance, but overall, this is fine.
9. Thousand Sons: Overwatch attacks are considered on a hit of 5+ to hit. Psykers conducting Psychic Tests may reroll their first failed test, and add +6" to any range of any Psyker Powers. In addition, Thousand Sons Detachments must all have the Mark of Tzeentch and may take Rubric Marines as a Troop choice.
Is that a given psyker's first failed test of the game? Their first test of the turn? Not sure how I feel about overwatching on a 5+. It's not OP, but I have to kind of squint to see what you're going for thematically. It also disincentivizes warpflamers a bit.
Overall, mostly reasonable with a couple of standouts that probably ought to be toned down. Are you aiming to just make these on par with chapter tactics, or are these meant to be good enough to replace doctrines too?
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
1. Black Legion: Units get +1 to their Leadership Stat. Units with this Legion Tactic may choose to Charge or shoot in the shooting phase after Falling Back, but not both. In addition, Black Legion Detachments may take Chaos Terminators as a Troop choice.
Seems fun to use, but isn't that just straight up better than the Ultramarine version? Also, while I personally like being able to make non-troops troops, it's no longer a thing for anyone except CSM, so I feel slightly weird about expanding it.
2. Alpha Legion: Your opponent must subtract 1 from their hit rolls when targeting units with this Legion Tactic with a shooting attack that is more than 12" away. In addition, when a unit with this Legion Tactic destroys an enemy unit, roll a D6. On a 5+, you gain a Command Point. You cannot gain this benefit more than once per turn.
I wonder if this should, perhaps, get the same change that the Raven Guard version did? I.e. always count as being in cover, and inflict -1 to hit when you're actually on terrain. I like the command point mechanic, but it's probably strong enough to be a legion trait in its own right. Also, the "more than once per turn" part is redundant, if I"m not mistaken, as current rules say that you can only (re)generate a command point once per game round. But maybe that's a matched play only rule.
3. Word Bearers: You cannot lose more than one model due to a failed Morale test. Models with this Legion Tactic may charge in the same turn they advance, and may reroll any Advance roll, but must accept the result of the reroll of done so. In addition, Word Bearers Detachments may take Possessed Marines as a Troop choice.
The highlighted part is redundant. If you reroll a die, the first result is dust in the wind. No need to specify that this reroll works like any other reroll. Again, I'm not sure how I feel about making non-troops troops. Aren't "possessed bombs" a thing right now? Advance and Charge is useful, but I'm not clear on how it fits the Word Bearers thematically.
4. Night Lords: Every model killed by a unit with this Legion counts as two models for the purposes of Morale tests. In addition, melee attacks that roll a 6+ to wound are treated as AP-5, and any Invulnerable Saves are treated at a -1 penalty. In addition, Night Lords Detachments may take Raptors as a Troop choice.
I know that scions just got something similar, but counting casualties twice seems like it might be a bit much as an army-wide thing. Kill 2 models over the course of an entire turn, and a Ld7 unit is suddenly losing dudes on a 2+. AP-5 is curiously better than similar rules possessed by things like genestealers and daemonettes (though the extra AP will rarely matter against most targets). -1 to invulns on top of that seems a bit odd; how does being spooky make you better at stabbing a dodging wych or stabbing your way through a forcefield? And again, the troop thing. I feel like you might be swinging the pendulum too hard in the other direction here.
5. Death Guard: Each time a wound would be lost on a model with this Legion Tactic, roll a D6. On a 6+, the wound is ignored. If a unit has a similar ability, they may reroll results of 1. Units with this Legion Tactic do not suffer a penalty when rolling to hit while moving with Heavy Weapons, or advancing and firing with Assault Weapons. In addition, Death Guard Detachments must all have the Mark of Nurgle, and may take Plague Marines as a Troop choice.
Fine by me.
6. World Eaters: Units with this Legion Tactic gain +1 to their Strength characteristic and a +1 to hit with melee attacks in a turn they charge, were charged, or made a Heroic Intervention. Units with this Legion Tactic add +1 to all Charge and Advance rolls. In addition, World Eaters Detachments must all have the Mark of Khorne, and may take Berserker Marines as a Troop choice.
Sounds good.
7. Iron Warriors: Shooting attacks made by units with this Legion Tactic ignore the benefits of cover that might be received by your opponent's units. Shooting attacks that are conducted at half the range of a weapon's max range count as two hits on a 6+ to hit. In addition, Iron Warriors Detachments may take Havocs as a Troop choice.
Really feels like troop havocs would end up being a bit much. Sure, they'll die reasonably quickly, but you're saving at least 120 points in a batallion that would normally go into cultists in a batallion and putting them directly into better-than-usual heavy weapons that can hide out of line of sight and then shoot without penalty.
8. Emperors Children: Units with this Legion Tactic receive +1" to their Movement Characteristic. Units with this Legion Tactic always fight first in the fight phase, even if they did not charge that turn or they were charged themselves. In addition, Emperors Children Detachments must all have the Mark of Slaanesh, and may take Noise Marines as a Troop choice.
Sure. I've rarely felt that 1" of movement really makes a distance, but overall, this is fine.
9. Thousand Sons: Overwatch attacks are considered on a hit of 5+ to hit. Psykers conducting Psychic Tests may reroll their first failed test, and add +6" to any range of any Psyker Powers. In addition, Thousand Sons Detachments must all have the Mark of Tzeentch and may take Rubric Marines as a Troop choice.
Is that a given psyker's first failed test of the game? Their first test of the turn? Not sure how I feel about overwatching on a 5+. It's not OP, but I have to kind of squint to see what you're going for thematically. It also disincentivizes warpflamers a bit.
Overall, mostly reasonable with a couple of standouts that probably ought to be toned down. Are you aiming to just make these on par with chapter tactics, or are these meant to be good enough to replace doctrines too?
Thanks for the feedback. Main thing to keep in mind is I hate the Super Doctrines but Doctrines themselves are fine. However, with the Doctrines and large amount of units Loyalist Scum have, it is reasonable that Legions get some Troop love too. I suppose there could be a caveat for each additional Troop choice that you need to take one unit of Chosen for each one to stop that from getting out of hand. Now for the Legion stuff:
1. Yeah it's straight better than the Ultramarine one but they get Doctrines. It's a wash.
2. The -1 to hit is fine as CSM doesn't stack it like Raven Guard and Eldar do. Also that "can't get more than once a turn" is for narrative reasons (that particular unit needed to be wiped out for an even BIGGER plan) and for future proof. That said, I dont think CP farming is bad as long as each source can only do it once per turn. The issue was everything getting it multiple times and GW swinging the pendulum because they're incapable of critical thinking.
3. Word Bearers had Crusader as a previous rule, along with sweeping advance stuff in 30k too. So them wanting to more quickly get into the thick of it is thematic. Also something in my gut told me to word it like a reroll for redundancy.
4. If Scions are allowed to do it, so should Night Lords. I also wanted to add in the theme of them being "dirty fighters" like with A Talent For Murder, but less broken than a +1 to wound.
5-6. Glad you're fine with those!
7. Once again that caveat I talked about in the first paragraph could be a thing.
8. I'm open to suggestions outside the bonus movement. The Emperors Children being swift though is hard to add in as a rule outside the fighting first ALL THE TIME NO MATTER WHAT.
9. I meant their first test in the game. Also with a consolidated codex there would be more stuff that want that bonus. Maybe add 1 to rolls with auto hitting weapons during Overwatch?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Overall: Don't replace Troops with stuff. It becomes really bad for the game when not applied properly, but is likely to be the case with Raptors, Havocs, or Terminators as troops.
1. I don't think Black Legion should be such a parallel to the Ultras, even if it is straight up better. Just because Space Marines got shiny new toys doesn't mean we should, but the current one IS bad. I think a total relook at what makes Black Legion who they are is in order.
2. You can leave Alpha Legion alone. It's an amazing trait. Alpha Legion is already good, and doesn't need anything else.
3. I like the change to losing max 1 model, as it makes you feel much safer taking big squads with them. I don't care for the Advance and Charge rule on them. Why not let them have their Mark of Chaos Undivided count as Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch? Lets them do strong stuff when playing with lots of Daemons, which strongly matched fluff.
4. I like the "every kill counts double". I don't think it needs anything else if you go with that, since that's pretty terrifying for some opponents right there!
5. Cool. Like it. It's weird that some Death Guard stuff doesn't get FnP. Might be too strong with the intrinsic reroll 1's, but I think just a small points bump to the Plagueburst Crawler would clear that up.
6. That's a lot of +1's for melee, and could quickly spiral out of control when you realize that the main unit it'll benefit is a Defiler and Lord Discordant. I think following the Blood Angels here might be the way to go, and give them +1 to wound rolls on charging/charged/heroics instead. If they absolutely need it (and I'm not sure they do, since +1 to wound is huge), give +1 to charge ranges.
7. I think the current trait with an intrinsic reroll to wound rolls of 1 vs vehicles or buildings would be best. No need to up their firepower at half range; the Iron Warriors are methodical warriors specializing in bringing down enemy emplacements, not about hails of bullets for close-range shootouts.
8. These are the hardest guys to find a good trait for, but straight up +1 movement might do it! Yeah, let's go play like we're Eldar.
9. The buff to range for the psychic tests is potent enough on its own for Psykers. So maybe just buff the range on all their stuff by 6"? 14" Flamers anyone?
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
Defielers don't get traits, even according to his suggestions. Further it's WE and Melee.
Like, shooting will still make the army obsolete regardless atm.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Not Online!!! wrote: Defielers don't get traits, even according to his suggestions. Further it's WE and Melee.
Like, shooting will still make the army obsolete regardless atm.
True, he said vehicles without Daemon keyword get traits. Still, the Disco Lord would get it. Point is that you generally want to help World Eaters smash stuff, but not sure if he realized that the things it might help most are not generally thought of as being World Eaters things.
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
DiscoLords have their own set of issues in that they're better than the stuff you want them to buff. Considering them in the equation is the same as saying "What about Dark Reapers or Hemlocks" when discussing balance changes to Eldar Craftworld Traits. Essentially, you don't because that's a unit problem.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I'll reply to you in a bit Online. Lemme take care of my first hour or so of work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/18 15:28:32
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Yarium wrote: Overall: Don't replace Troops with stuff. It becomes really bad for the game when not applied properly, but is likely to be the case with Raptors, Havocs, or Terminators as troops.
Yarium wrote: Overall: Don't replace Troops with stuff. It becomes really bad for the game when not applied properly, but is likely to be the case with Raptors, Havocs, or Terminators as troops.
How so? Please elaborate.
Well, that's speaking from experience on it. Generally replacing your "tax" options with stuff that you don't find to be "tax" leads to feel-bad lists. Best example in the real world I can think of was in 7th when you could take bikes as troops with a Bike Captain, and then you had armies of guys that were impossible to kill without stomps from Knights in close combat, or without guns that ignored all saves of any kind. Wasn't good.
In 8th edition, we have accepted having armies of stuff without Troops, but at the cost of CP. Yes, you can take a Tank Company of all tanks; but then you only get 1CP. With taking things as Troops, you can take Battalions still, but also effectively not have to take Battalions. I don't mind it from the Cult troops for two reasons:
#1 - Cult Troops are about as deadly as basic Infantry, with some special slight improvements (Khorne = fight twice, slighty stronger | Nurgle = tougher | Slaanesh = shoot on death | Tzeentch = tougher and high AP bullets and psychic power)
#2 - Cult Troops move like basic Infantry. All the cult units just walk. You want more? Start jumping through some kind of hoop, like psychic powers, relics, transports, or CP.
Terminators and Raptors break both those rules. Both of these units can deploy in unique ways automatically, and both are core parts of existing Specialist Detachments (Host Raptorial and Bringers of Despair). Terminators also are not basic infantry by any means, with far greater resilience and offensive output than a standard infantry. Havoc squads can all carry special/heavy weapons, are tougher than basic infantry, and can move and shoot at no penalty. Many armies bring these units because they fill a role that is otherwise not able to be filled. To be able to fill that role and still receive lots of CP without taking bog standard Chaos Marines or even Cultists - well, it's the reason that GW makes these mistakes that people say "you should've seen this coming". Well, making these three units into TROOPS is a mistake that we can see coming. As stated, most armies can't do it, and back when many armies could do that it created problems. Let's avoid doing it again here.
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
Yarium wrote: Overall: Don't replace Troops with stuff. It becomes really bad for the game when not applied properly, but is likely to be the case with Raptors, Havocs, or Terminators as troops.
How so? Please elaborate.
Well, that's speaking from experience on it. Generally replacing your "tax" options with stuff that you don't find to be "tax" leads to feel-bad lists. Best example in the real world I can think of was in 7th when you could take bikes as troops with a Bike Captain, and then you had armies of guys that were impossible to kill without stomps from Knights in close combat, or without guns that ignored all saves of any kind. Wasn't good.
In 8th edition, we have accepted having armies of stuff without Troops, but at the cost of CP. Yes, you can take a Tank Company of all tanks; but then you only get 1CP. With taking things as Troops, you can take Battalions still, but also effectively not have to take Battalions. I don't mind it from the Cult troops for two reasons:
#1 - Cult Troops are about as deadly as basic Infantry, with some special slight improvements (Khorne = fight twice, slighty stronger | Nurgle = tougher | Slaanesh = shoot on death | Tzeentch = tougher and high AP bullets and psychic power)
#2 - Cult Troops move like basic Infantry. All the cult units just walk. You want more? Start jumping through some kind of hoop, like psychic powers, relics, transports, or CP.
Terminators and Raptors break both those rules. Both of these units can deploy in unique ways automatically, and both are core parts of existing Specialist Detachments (Host Raptorial and Bringers of Despair). Terminators also are not basic infantry by any means, with far greater resilience and offensive output than a standard infantry. Havoc squads can all carry special/heavy weapons, are tougher than basic infantry, and can move and shoot at no penalty. Many armies bring these units because they fill a role that is otherwise not able to be filled. To be able to fill that role and still receive lots of CP without taking bog standard Chaos Marines or even Cultists - well, it's the reason that GW makes these mistakes that people say "you should've seen this coming". Well, making these three units into TROOPS is a mistake that we can see coming. As stated, most armies can't do it, and back when many armies could do that it created problems. Let's avoid doing it again here.
Interesting points. But I think the problem is that you are forgetting that all factions aren't restricted to "bog standard troops" already. Sm have intercessors, and scouts who can infiltrate and take sniper rifles. Grey Knights have the aforementioned terminators, and no one is complaining about them even with their new rules. Don't get me started on how not "bog standard" Custodian Guards are.
And I don't remember anyone complaining about me taking raptors as troops when I could before.
Gadzilla666 wrote:Interesting points. But I think the problem is that you are forgetting that all factions aren't restricted to "bog standard troops" already. Sm have intercessors, and scouts who can infiltrate and take sniper rifles. Grey Knights have the aforementioned terminators, and no one is complaining about them even with their new rules. Don't get me started on how not "bog standard" Custodian Guards are.
Bog standard is relative to that faction, in all fairness.
Considering that we literally have detachment rules that let people take Elite-heavy armies, Fast Attack-heavy armies and so on, it seems a shame not to use them. To this degree, I'd actually support something along the lines of "<Night Lords> Outrider Detachments with 3 Raptor Squads generate X Command Points", or something to that effect.
Basically, you're encouraging the use of anything outside of Battalion/Brigade.
Yarium wrote: Overall: Don't replace Troops with stuff. It becomes really bad for the game when not applied properly, but is likely to be the case with Raptors, Havocs, or Terminators as troops.
1. I don't think Black Legion should be such a parallel to the Ultras, even if it is straight up better. Just because Space Marines got shiny new toys doesn't mean we should, but the current one IS bad. I think a total relook at what makes Black Legion who they are is in order.
2. You can leave Alpha Legion alone. It's an amazing trait. Alpha Legion is already good, and doesn't need anything else.
3. I like the change to losing max 1 model, as it makes you feel much safer taking big squads with them. I don't care for the Advance and Charge rule on them. Why not let them have their Mark of Chaos Undivided count as Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch? Lets them do strong stuff when playing with lots of Daemons, which strongly matched fluff.
4. I like the "every kill counts double". I don't think it needs anything else if you go with that, since that's pretty terrifying for some opponents right there!
5. Cool. Like it. It's weird that some Death Guard stuff doesn't get FnP. Might be too strong with the intrinsic reroll 1's, but I think just a small points bump to the Plagueburst Crawler would clear that up.
6. That's a lot of +1's for melee, and could quickly spiral out of control when you realize that the main unit it'll benefit is a Defiler and Lord Discordant. I think following the Blood Angels here might be the way to go, and give them +1 to wound rolls on charging/charged/heroics instead. If they absolutely need it (and I'm not sure they do, since +1 to wound is huge), give +1 to charge ranges.
7. I think the current trait with an intrinsic reroll to wound rolls of 1 vs vehicles or buildings would be best. No need to up their firepower at half range; the Iron Warriors are methodical warriors specializing in bringing down enemy emplacements, not about hails of bullets for close-range shootouts.
8. These are the hardest guys to find a good trait for, but straight up +1 movement might do it! Yeah, let's go play like we're Eldar.
9. The buff to range for the psychic tests is potent enough on its own for Psykers. So maybe just buff the range on all their stuff by 6"? 14" Flamers anyone?
I thought about the caveat that for each unit of Chosen you take you can take one of those units as a Troop choice. It's not a terrible restriction especially if Chosen were troops themselves (which they should've been to begin with). Anyway:
1. Black Legion seem like they're supposed to be the most flexible of the Legions, ergo being THE Legion to be in the middle of it all and do what's necessary seems like a fit. I'm open for suggestions but it's pretty obvious the current "bonus" they get simply does not represent that.
2. Everyone gets a two parter. 1CP capped at a chance roll is not hurting anyway.
3. Because nobody gets marked by all the Gods at once. This also fits in with older rules and the 30k rules. Daemon gimmicks are a whole different thing as they really don't function like they should at the moment. If that gets fixed, then we'd be able to talk certain Strats or Warlord Traits conferring bonuses.
4. The Jackals do it at 7 points a model. It's not unreasonable to have a particular two parter that's a proc rule.
5. Crawlers needed to be looked at anyway. That's why I also not to focus on already almost too good units with these updates. Units that were already too good needed to be adjusted regardless of proposed rules.
6. I'd be fine with doing a +1 to wound instead of to hit. Sure it works. However I don't want this to be basically a mirror of Blood Angels. Copying stuff over and over ad nauseam is part of the problem with the less inspiring Traits.
7. What about rerolls of 1 to wound Vehicles, Monsters, and Buildings in general? Gives the melee focused lists a little more legroom to get a bonus.
8. Well we don't have an Initiative value anymore BUT we do have a movement value. Those couples together should represent being speedy.
9. Extra range and the Psyker bonus? Sure maybe. I'd like you get a consensus on that from everyone though.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Gadzilla666 wrote:Interesting points. But I think the problem is that you are forgetting that all factions aren't restricted to "bog standard troops" already. Sm have intercessors, and scouts who can infiltrate and take sniper rifles. Grey Knights have the aforementioned terminators, and no one is complaining about them even with their new rules. Don't get me started on how not "bog standard" Custodian Guards are.
Bog standard is relative to that faction, in all fairness.
Considering that we literally have detachment rules that let people take Elite-heavy armies, Fast Attack-heavy armies and so on, it seems a shame not to use them. To this degree, I'd actually support something along the lines of "<Night Lords> Outrider Detachments with 3 Raptor Squads generate X Command Points", or something to that effect.
Basically, you're encouraging the use of anything outside of Battalion/Brigade.
So less double battalions and my raptors generate cp?
I thought about the caveat that for each unit of Chosen you take you can take one of those units as a Troop choice. It's not a terrible restriction especially if Chosen were troops themselves (which they should've been to begin with).
Dig this idea too. Chosen are what csmshould be.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/19 02:44:33
Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Considering that we literally have detachment rules that let people take Elite-heavy armies, Fast Attack-heavy armies and so on, it seems a shame not to use them. To this degree, I'd actually support something along the lines of "<Night Lords> Outrider Detachments with 3 Raptor Squads generate X Command Points", or something to that effect.
Basically, you're encouraging the use of anything outside of Battalion/Brigade.
At that point, you're almost talking about bringing back formations though, with many of the pitfalls that caused formations to go away.
I thought about the caveat that for each unit of Chosen you take you can take one of those units as a Troop choice. It's not a terrible restriction especially if Chosen were troops themselves (which they should've been to begin with).
Kind of a separate topic, but I'm all for chosen becoming troops. I'm also in favor of them gaining an extra wound to represent plot armor, mutation-based toughness, etc.
1. Black Legion seem like they're supposed to be the most flexible of the Legions, ergo being THE Legion to be in the middle of it all and do what's necessary seems like a fit. I'm open for suggestions but it's pretty obvious the current "bonus" they get simply does not represent that.
I like the Black Legion trait. They're all about overwhelming shock assaults. Being able to dive into a combat, then pull back out to shoot or stab things where you'll do the most damage seems like a good fit for that.
3. Because nobody gets marked by all the Gods at once. This also fits in with older rules and the 30k rules. Daemon gimmicks are a whole different thing as they really don't function like they should at the moment. If that gets fixed, then we'd be able to talk certain Strats or Warlord Traits conferring bonuses.
Again, this is probably getting off-topic, but I really feel that summoning works pretty well if you simply allow the summoner to move before summoning. It turns a fast or deepstriking character into a delivery system for your daemons, AND it lets you pick the right daemons for the job at the time you summon them. Seems like a decent reinterpretation of the summoning mechanics of yesteryear.
4. The Jackals do it at 7 points a model. It's not unreasonable to have a particular two parter that's a proc rule.
I kind of wonder if the scion version ends up being too powerful. Plus, the scion range isn't particularly cheap or durable, so the units most able to take advantage of this rule will also typically die the turn after they deliver their sucker punch. CSM, for all their flaws, probably have enough unit and weapon diversity to remove big chunks of the enemy army through morale casualties. Killing 3 marines in a 5 man squad gives you decent odds of removing the other 2 guys, and that's with ATSKNF. Killing 10 conscripts means the remaining 20 guys are taking morale at a +20 to the roll. Killing 5 aspect warriors means you'll average 5 casualties to morale (d6 = 3.5 + 2 = 5.5) strongly discouraging people from fielding non-MSU squads.
8. Well we don't have an Initiative value anymore BUT we do have a movement value. Those couples together should represent being speedy.
Speaking as both an eldar player and a Slaaneshi player, an extra inch of movement is not very helpful. For shooting, 1" of movement only matters if you would have otherwise been EXACTLY 1" out of range. For charging, 1" only matters if you happened to roll EXACTLY the number needed to make the charge. Any higher and you'd have made the charge anyway. Any lower and you're failing the charge anyway.
To be a bit salty, I mostly hear people point to Movement as a replacement for Initiative when they don't play formerly high-initiative factions. I've never heard an aeldari player say, "Sure, last edition I would have gotten all of my attacks before you got yours. But it's fine because now I move 7" instead of 6"."
That said, there are some speed mechanics that do feel good this edition. Consider:
* Auto-advancing 6", possibly paired with treating rapid fire weapons as assault weapons.
* Advance + charge, possibly with a bonus to the charge if you advance (per Acrobatics from Howling Banshees)
* Fall back and charge.
* Consolidate in any direction (prevents attacks back during your own fight phase, and lets you leave combat during your opponent's fight phase so you're free to shoot/stab later.)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/19 04:02:42
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
4. The Jackals do it at 7 points a model. It's not unreasonable to have a particular two parter that's a proc rule.
I kind of wonder if the scion version ends up being too powerful. Plus, the scion range isn't particularly cheap or durable, so the units most able to take advantage of this rule will also typically die the turn after they deliver their sucker punch. CSM, for all their flaws, probably have enough unit and weapon diversity to remove big chunks of the enemy army through morale casualties. Killing 3 marines in a 5 man squad gives you decent odds of removing the other 2 guys, and that's with ATSKNF. Killing 10 conscripts means the remaining 20 guys are taking morale at a +20 to the roll. Killing 5 aspect warriors means you'll average 5 casualties to morale (d6 = 3.5 + 2 = 5.5) strongly discouraging people from fielding non-MSU squads.
The bonus should be limited to models killed in cc to keep it from being too strong. That would also fit the legion's fluff. Can't flay someone alive from shooting distance.
The ap bonus and minus to invuls would need a condition as well. Possibly outnumbering your opponents or only taking effect on a charge or being charged.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kind of a separate topic, but I'm all for chosen becoming troops. I'm also in favor of them gaining an extra wound to represent plot armor, mutation-based toughness, etc.
This needs to happen. Hello gw you listening? (Probably not. )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 06:07:47
I edited the OP so that, for non-marked Legions to get additional troops, they gotta take a unit of Chosen first. Also fixed the second part of the Iron Warriors trait to better reflect them taking down big stuff.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I edited the OP so that, for non-marked Legions to get additional troops, they gotta take a unit of Chosen first. Also fixed the second part of the Iron Warriors trait to better reflect them taking down big stuff.
I'm assuming that you'd move chosen to troops for all factions as that's something we both agree on. Does the Night Lords ap bonus require natural 6s? And are we keeping the -1 to leadership as well?
Honestly instead of havocs i'd rather See an oversized havoc launcher fieldarty pieces....
Then again gw couldn't be bothered to Update a Chaos predator for an hades AC turret.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I edited the OP so that, for non-marked Legions to get additional troops, they gotta take a unit of Chosen first. Also fixed the second part of the Iron Warriors trait to better reflect them taking down big stuff.
I'm assuming that you'd move chosen to troops for all factions as that's something we both agree on. Does the Night Lords ap bonus require natural 6s? And are we keeping the -1 to leadership as well?
Night Lords is 6+ to wound. Also yes the Chosen thing is assumed as that's one of the things I'm a broken record about.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Why do CSM need two-tiered Legion traits? How much worse does a World Eaters Predator need to be compared to an Alpha Legion Predator? Also, these are OP assuming nothing gets changed in terms of pts and stats. CSM still seems very internally imbalanced so they need an internal balance review anyways and external balance is hard to grasp with ITC possibly not providing stats that are useful outside that format and other formats not having enough stats collected about them to base balancing around.
I'm for consolidation of Death Guard and Thousand Sons, getting rid of elements that make the codex try to force Renegades down our throats (so no don't ask me if I considered them, because I haven't and won't for a CSM codex, but the current ones did give have parts I wanted to incorporate anyway), and want revised unit stats.
I think consolidating DG and TS is a great idea. How would you handle Renegades? Make a Renegade supplement like the Ultramarines/Imperial Fists supplements? I'm assuming you want Chosen as troops and the removal of the basic CSM squad as part of this change of the faction of incorporating all Heretic Astartes to only Heretic Legion Astartes?
oh, and vehicles without the Daemon keyword getting Traits.
Why stop there? Why not give traits to daemon vehicles and cultists?
2. Alpha Legion: Your opponent must subtract 1 from their hit rolls when targeting units with this Legion Tactic with a shooting attack that is more than 12" away. In addition, when a unit with this Legion Tactic destroys an enemy unit, roll a D6. On a 5+, you gain a Command Point. You cannot gain this benefit more than once per turn.
2. The -1 to hit is fine as CSM doesn't stack it like Raven Guard and Eldar do. Also that "can't get more than once a turn" is for narrative reasons (that particular unit needed to be wiped out for an even BIGGER plan) and for future proof. That said, I dont think CP farming is bad as long as each source can only do it once per turn. The issue was everything getting it multiple times and GW swinging the pendulum because they're incapable of critical thinking.
I feel like this is too encouraging of soup, I'm also a little curious why you don't think it appropriate to give CSM a buff when they go pure? With AL tactic affecting Fire Raptors those become -2 and AL can indeed stack quite a lot with WL traits and relics.
3. Word Bearers: You cannot lose more than one model due to a failed Morale test. Models with this Legion Tactic may charge in the same turn they advance, and may reroll any Advance roll. In addition, Word Bearers Detachments may take a Possessed Marines as a Troop choice for every Chosen unit taken.
3. Word Bearers had Crusader as a previous rule, along with sweeping advance stuff in 30k too. So them wanting to more quickly get into the thick of it is thematic. Also something in my gut told me to word it like a reroll for redundancy.
Have you considered additional consolidation movement? I'm not in favour of any Chapter Tactics making a unit into Troops, not even WE, TS, DG or EC, instead I believe those units should have a rule that makes them Troops when taken in a certain number (8/9/7/6).
5. Death Guard: Each time a wound would be lost on a model with this Legion Tactic, roll a D6. On a 6+, the wound is ignored. If a unit has a similar ability, they may reroll results of 1. Units with this Legion Tactic do not suffer a penalty when rolling to hit while moving with Heavy Weapons, or advancing and firing with Assault Weapons. In addition, Death Guard Detachments must all have the Mark of Nurgle, and may take Plague Marines as a Troop choice.
FNP should be removed from the game, it drags things out too much.
6. World Eaters: Units with this Legion Tactic gain +1 to their Strength characteristic and a +1 to hit with melee attacks in a turn they charge, were charged, or made a Heroic Intervention. Units with this Legion Tactic add +1 to all Charge and Advance rolls. In addition, World Eaters Detachments must all have the Mark of Khorne, and may take Berserker Marines as a Troop choice.
Should WE be better at fighting IMPERIUM units than other legions? Because the +1 to hit rolls is going to trigger additional DttFE attacks.
8. Emperors Children: Units with this Legion Tactic receive +1" to their Movement Characteristic. Units with this Legion Tactic always fight first in the fight phase, even if they did not charge that turn or they were charged themselves. In addition, Emperors Children Detachments must all have the Mark of Slaanesh, and may take Noise Marines as a Troop choice.
8. I'm open to suggestions outside the bonus movement. The Emperors Children being swift though is hard to add in as a rule outside the fighting first ALL THE TIME NO MATTER WHAT.
I don't like it, I'd love for them to have master artisans (Salamanders) bonus, but all those re-rolls are a pain to resolve. Maybe +1 to hit with all attacks made in the opponent's turn coupled with the current always counts as having charged would work?
9. Thousand Sons: Overwatch attacks are considered on a hit of 5+ to hit. Psykers add +6" to any range of any Psyker Powers. In addition, Thousand Sons Detachments must all have the Mark of Tzeentch and may take Rubric Marines as a Troop choice.
9. I meant their first test in the game. Also with a consolidated codex there would be more stuff that want that bonus. Maybe add 1 to rolls with auto hitting weapons during Overwatch?
The original version was definitely too much psychic focus IMO. Your wording on all these could also use some work.
Spoiler:
Alpha Legion: Hidden Operatives Units with this trait improve their Sv characteristic by 1 against shooting attacks. In addition, you get 1 CP each time a unit with this trait destroys an enemy unit (to a maximum of 1 CP per battle round). If you gain a CP from this trait in one of your turns you can no longer gain CP in that same phase in any one of your later turns. If you gain a CP from this trait in one of your opponents turns you can no longer gains CP in that same phase in any one of your opponent's later turns.
Black Legion: Black Crusaders Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in units with this trait. In addition, units with this trait can shoot or charge (but not both) even if they Fell Back in the same turn.
Death Guard: Inexorable Advance Units with this trait do not suffer a penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, or for Advancing and firing Assault weapons and can fire two shots with Rapid Fire weapons at full range rather than while within half range. In addition, models with this trait can never have their Movement characteristic or charge range be lowered by abilities, terrain or Stratatagems and always use the top bracket in the case of models with multiple Movement characteristics for the purpose of their Movement characteristic.
Emperor’s Children: Flawless Perfection Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place. In addition, add 1 to hit rolls for units with this trait in your opponent's turn.
Iron Warriors: Siege Lords Enemy units attacked by units with this trait do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover. In addition, improve the AP characteristic of all weapons for units with this trait by 1 when they target a MONSTER or VEHICLE.
Night Lords: Night Terrors Each model destroyed by an attack made by a model with this trait is treated as 2 destroyed models in the following Morale phase. In addition, each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a model with this trait in the Fight phase, that hit is resolved with an AP of -5.
Thousand Sons: Psychic Insights When a unit with this trait fires Overwatch a 5 or 6 is required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers. In addition, the ranges of all psychic powers manifested by units with this trait are increased by 6".
Word Bearers: Profane Zeal A unit with this attribute can never lose more than one model as a result of any single failed Morale test. In addition, when a model with this consolidates it can move up to 6" instead of up to 3".
World Eaters: Butcher’s Nails Each model with this trait can make an additional attack when they attack once per phase. In addition, increase the Toughness characteristic of models with this trait by 1 against attacks with a damage characteristic of 1.
Have you considered additional consolidation movement? I'm not in favour of any Chapter Tactics making a unit into Troops, not even WE, TS, DG or EC, instead I believe those units should have a rule that makes them Troops when taken in a certain number (8/9/7/6).
No, just flat out no, if anything, mono legions should get acess to troops in that slot for beeing mono, not numbers not stupid systems. The god specific numbers are nice nod but should not have any gameimpact at all, or do we want teleporting out Necrons again? I think not.
Alpha Legion: Hidden Operatives
Units with this trait improve their Sv characteristic by 1 against shooting attacks. In addition, you get 1 CP each time a unit with this trait destroys an enemy unit (to a maximum of 1 CP per battle round). If you gain a CP from this trait in one of your turns you can no longer gain CP in that same phase in any one of your later turns. If you gain a CP from this trait in one of your opponents turns you can no longer gains CP in that same phase in any one of your opponent's later turns.
No, that is a flat nerf for the only trait that is actually worth a damn. infact i am also not convinced that AL should gain more CP, Further, your statement in regards to mono , it is pretty clear that GW doesn't want chaos to do mono. Additionally, if anything the AL trait needs to have like the AM dex a second part that affects vehicles instead in order to not generate -1 to hit vehicles, it's good / bad enough that you can stack -1 to hit on certain things with relics and traits but just flat out making the vehicle ballpark even worse to deal with makes for not particulary fun game wise.
Black Legion: Black Crusaders
Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in units with this trait. In addition, units with this trait can shoot or charge (but not both) even if they Fell Back in the same turn.
The +1 leadership is worthless and might aswell not exist. The only unit that would maybee profit from it are cultists which don't get traits.
Death Guard: Inexorable Advance
Units with this trait do not suffer a penalty for moving and firing Heavy weapons, or for Advancing and firing Assault weapons and can fire two shots with Rapid Fire weapons at full range rather than while within half range. In addition, models with this trait can never have their Movement characteristic or charge range be lowered by abilities, terrain or Stratatagems and always use the top bracket in the case of models with multiple Movement characteristics for the purpose of their Movement characteristic.
That certainly would solve the Inexorable advance, however cutting out on the FNP due to time consumation is stupid, the only thing that should really be cut out for times sake is aura reroll bubles. and or replaced by +1 to hit bubbles (not boosting PG out of dangerzone btw, equal long pikes for everyone.)
Emperor’s Children: Flawless Perfection
Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place. In addition, add 1 to hit rolls for units with this trait in your opponent's turn.
The allways fights first is ocmpletetly contraproductive for EC, which is a legion very much liking to STAY AWAY AND SHOOT. Also + 1 to hit in your opponents turn is useless due to only Noise marines having an actual ability to make use out of it. I don't think a GSC style situation with only 3 out of 15 units affected by the traits should be what is happeneing.
Iron Warriors: Siege Lords
Enemy units attacked by units with this trait do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover. In addition, improve the AP characteristic of all weapons for units with this trait by 1 when they target a MONSTER or VEHICLE.
What is wrong with flat out ignoring cover? Supposedly too good? that's why we see all these that can do that , oh wait, we don't..... I like the Monster / vehicle part thematically and okayish. but should we really encourage even more Votwl Boltgun spam against tough things then we allready are ?
Night Lords: Night Terrors
Each model destroyed by an attack made by a model with this trait is treated as 2 destroyed models in the following Morale phase. In addition, each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a model with this trait in the Fight phase, that hit is resolved with an AP of -5.
It is funny that this is a worse Militarum tempestus trait and yet still a massive improvement to the morale trait GW so hardly attempted to push, shame that it just will get Morale stratagemed away. Also, Disagree on the AP-5 part, considering that brazen beasts have ap-4 on a 6. i'd forgoe the AP and just lower all save's by -1 (including Invulnerable or sv charachteristics.) That way it is not completely lopsided and finally something that can deal with invuln spam, which too be blunt GW created on it's own.
Thousand Sons: Psychic Insights
When a unit with this trait fires Overwatch a 5 or 6 is required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers. In addition, the ranges of all psychic powers manifested by units with this trait are increased by 6".
That would certainly be a decent suggestion.
Word Bearers: Profane Zeal
A unit with this attribute can never lose more than one model as a result of any single failed Morale test. In addition, when a model with this consolidates it can move up to 6" instead of up to 3".
Same as with BL, cultists don't have traits and would be the only ones really profiting from the morale part. I also have no idea why WB off all should consolidate further then the dedicated melee legions like, i dunno Nightlords and WE.
World Eaters: Butcher’s Nails
Each model with this trait can make an additional attack when they attack once per phase. In addition, increase the Toughness characteristic of models with this trait by 1 against attacks with a damage characteristic of 1.
let me get this straight you nerf the trait, which triggered on any first melee phase even if you got charged for reasons unknown, (because melee just ain't really working, well massed melee that is) and then basically turned them into DG light.
Do you really want T5 Berzerkers? and T7 DP's? I don't think so. That would be terrible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/24 09:42:37
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Have you considered additional consolidation movement? I'm not in favour of any Chapter Tactics making a unit into Troops, not even WE, TS, DG or EC, instead I believe those units should have a rule that makes them Troops when taken in a certain number (8/9/7/6).
No, just flat out no, if anything, mono legions should get acess to troops in that slot for beeing mono, not numbers not stupid systems. The god specific numbers are nice nod but should not have any gameimpact at all, or do we want teleporting out Necrons again? I think not.
Why should it not have a game impact? Troops is something you see someone field a lot of, if you are taking units of 5, 10 or 20 you're just taking them because they're good, if you're taking 8/9/7/6 you're taking them to please the chaos gods and because it's how your warband is organized. I have suggested a rule for Necron teleporting out when they fail morale they can have models that are dead flee as they teleport back to base so they cannot reanimate again but it prevents the guys that are still functioning from fleeing. So I'm ahead of you there.
Black Legion: Black Crusaders
Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in units with this trait. In addition, units with this trait can shoot or charge (but not both) even if they Fell Back in the same turn.
The +1 leadership is worthless and might aswell not exist. The only unit that would maybee profit from it are cultists which don't get traits.
I think it's supposed to be a fluffy thing mostly, something I'm fond of sometimes.
Cutting out on the FNP due to time consumation is stupid, the only thing that should really be cut out for times sake is aura reroll bubles. and or replaced by +1 to hit bubbles (not boosting PG out of dangerzone btw, equal long pikes for everyone.)
You make a statement but you don't back it up. Rolling 9x D3 damage against a 5 2W models with 5+ FNP is a chore. It's something like 15 seperate rolls needed to resolve a shooting attack, that's after the 5 previous steps of hits, re-rolling hits, wounds, re-rolling wounds and saves. If some of the Terminators are in cover you'll need to do a total of something like 25 seperate rolls to resolve a shooting attack, that, is stupid.
Emperor’s Children: Flawless Perfection
Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase even if they didn’t charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place. In addition, add 1 to hit rolls for units with this trait in your opponent's turn.
The allways fights first is ocmpletetly contraproductive for EC, which is a legion very much liking to STAY AWAY AND SHOOT. Also + 1 to hit in your opponents turn is useless due to only Noise marines having an actual ability to make use out of it. I don't think a GSC style situation with only 3 out of 15 units affected by the traits should be what is happeneing.
It's useful for when you get charged or prolonged combats.
Iron Warriors: Siege Lords
Enemy units attacked by units with this trait do not gain any bonus to their saving throws for being in cover. In addition, improve the AP characteristic of all weapons for units with this trait by 1 when they target a MONSTER or VEHICLE.
What is wrong with flat out ignoring cover? Supposedly too good? that's why we see all these that can do that , oh wait, we don't.....
What are you talking about? My suggestion does ignore cover, this is what the rule currently does and it's not too dissimilar from the IF version "When resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon by a model with this tactic, the target does not receive the benefit of cover to its saving throw".
I like the Monster / vehicle part thematically and okayish. but should we really encourage even more Votwl Boltgun spam against tough things then we allready are ?
Should VotLW exist as it does now? I'd actually argue that all Chapter Tactics, Legion Traits etc. should be removed from the game and replaced with a system of pick-your-own Stratagems so no, I do think it's too much pineapple in own juice, but this is the sort of thing GW is doing and seems to be the sort of thing OP wants. If I were to keep Chapter Tactics around I think they should be just the opposite so you encourage several different playstyles and units but I didn't want to go in the total opposite direction of what OP wanted. Like with EC having reasons for melee and for shooting. I think the same should apply for every sub-faction, so every sub-faction can shoot and melee, they just do it in different ways.
Night Lords: Night Terrors
Each model destroyed by an attack made by a model with this trait is treated as 2 destroyed models in the following Morale phase. In addition, each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a model with this trait in the Fight phase, that hit is resolved with an AP of -5.
It is funny that this is a worse Militarum tempestus trait and yet still a massive improvement to the morale trait GW so hardly attempted to push, shame that it just will get Morale stratagemed away. Also, Disagree on the AP-5 part, considering that brazen beasts have ap-4 on a 6. i'd forgoe the AP and just lower all save's by -1 (including Invulnerable or sv charachteristics.) That way it is not completely lopsided and finally something that can deal with invuln spam, which too be blunt GW created on it's own.
Invul spam is not a thing.
Word Bearers: Profane Zeal
A unit with this attribute can never lose more than one model as a result of any single failed Morale test. In addition, when a model with this consolidates it can move up to 6" instead of up to 3".
Same as with BL, cultists don't have traits and would be the only ones really profiting from the morale part. I also have no idea why WB off all should consolidate further then the dedicated melee legions like, i dunno Nightlords and WE.
Because they are zealous?
World Eaters: Butcher’s Nails
Each model with this trait can make an additional attack when they attack once per phase. In addition, increase the Toughness characteristic of models with this trait by 1 against attacks with a damage characteristic of 1.
let me get this straight you nerf the trait, which triggered on any first melee phase even if you got charged for reasons unknown, (because melee just ain't really working, well massed melee that is) and then basically turned them into DG light.
Do you really want T5 Berzerkers? and T7 DP's? I don't think so. That would be terrible.
I don't see a problem with T5 Zerkers, it's canon that Butcher's Nails reduce pain. You probably think WE increases your attacks characteristic by 1 when you charge don't you? It works exactly how my suggestion works, except it's only when you charge. So my suggestion makes it go from +1 atk once per phase when you charge to +1 atk once per phase.
