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Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Here's a thing I've noticed:

A lot of folks seem to be of the opinion that maybe the marine supplements take them a bit over the top, but marine codex 2.0 is right about how marines are supposed to operate. That the primaris stat boosts, various beta rules and point drops put them in just about the right spot relative to everything else. Marines should be elite! They should be jacks of all trades, able to hold up in melee and shooting! Other armies are allowed to have their special things they're good at, but marines are MARINES, they should be true masters of war?

So here's a little thought experiment. Let's take a number of Intercessors equal to the point cost of another unit, and a number of that unit equal to the point cost of Intercessors. We're going to ignore Doctrines (which obviously always benefits the marines), ignore chapter tactics (Which usually benefits the marines), ignore morale (Which nearly always benefits marines) ignore Overwatch (which always benefits the marines), and ignore stuff like sergeants and unit caps for simplicity. All we're going to do is give the marines Shock Assault and Bolter Discipline, and assume the two units are both charging/being charged and attacking simultaneously. The shooting contests will take place at 30" range, or 24" range if the unit the marines are fighting have a shorter range.

Remember, each of these contests is going to be 17 models of the Challenger versus a number of Intercessors equal to the point value of the Challenger (E.G. 6 Intercessors vs 17 Daemonettes)

Melee contests:

Genestealers: 6.2 dead intercessors(105.2pts), 10 dead Genestealers (150pts)
Howling Banshees (-1 to hit exarch trait): 3.1 dead intercessors (52.7pts), 5.5 dead Banshees (60.5pts)
Harlequin (with Harlequin's Embrace making them 17ppm): 9.35 dead intercessors (159pts), 11.22 dead Harlequins (190.7pts)
Ork Boyz (Choppa): 2.83 dead Intercessors (48pts), 5 dead Orks (30pts)
Daemonettes: 2.6 dead Intercessors (44.2pts), 6.2 dead daemonettes (37.2pts)
Bloodletters: 8 dead Intercessors (136pts), 6.2 dead bloodletters (43.4pts)

Here's Intercessors in melee versus melee specialist units of other factions who have extremely little to zero of their power budget put into shooting. I found a few units that do have some margin of mathmatical advantage, and one that had a really strong advantage thanks to their bonus on the charge and near perfect rules for fighting Intercessors, Bloodletters.

Shooting Contests:

Fire Warriors: 0.9 dead Intercessors (16pts), 4.13 dead Fire Warriors (28.9pts)
Dark Reapers (S5 AP-2 D2 profile): 10.04 dead Intercessors (170.7pts), 13.75 dead Dark Reapers (426.3pts)
Imperial Guardsmen: 0.47 dead Intercessors (8pts), 3 dead Guardsmen (12pts)
Necron Warriors: 1.41 dead Intercessors (24pts), 3.25 dead Necrons (36pts)
Chaos Space Marines: 1.89 dead Intercessors (32pts), 3.66 dead CSM (40.3pts)

Here's Intercessors fighting at long range versus long range specialist units of other factions with as close to zero of their power budget put into melee as possible. I put CSMs in there because I wanted to see how they fared also getting beta bolters and with their points discount for getting no doctrines stacked up.

In this scenario, we are ignoring a number of hugely advantageous mechanics that marines enjoy: Doctrines, their near immunity to morale, their access to reroll to hit/reroll 1s to wound double aura bubbles for a total of 2CP and 125pts, their top tier chapter tactics, their access to twice as many stratagems, relics, psychic powers and warlord traits than most factions get, etc.

"Marines shoot the choppy and chop the shooty" has always been the common advice given on how to play marines. When they're strong enough to shoot the shooty and chop the choppy, what do you do against them?

In the competitive meta right now, the answer seems to be either "Load up on a massive turn 2 alpha strike in an attempt to cripple their whole army at once and pray you luck out and don't have to face the Alpha Strike flavored marines who get to show up turn 1" or "Take the few remaining specialized shooting units that can effectively kill Primaris and spend the rest of your points protecting them."

To the folks who like marines where they're at right now, what in your eyes would be an acceptable limit to the power of a basic space marine? Do you find it fair that they enjoy a mathmatical advantage over units like Genestealers, Banshees and Harlequins in melee who are specialized in fighting lower toughness higher Sv units when they're also equipped with a gun that attacks as effectively at 30" range as it does at 2" range?

If not, do you think it would make sense if marines costed more? If they had fewer special rules backing them up? If the units designed to kill marines cost less? Marines "Dying too easily" is a complaint I've heard pretty much throughout 8th, so it doesn't seem like increasing the power or decreasing the cost of anti-MEQ specialists is the answer. So where would you be willing to give?

To be clear: I am not presenting this from a place of wanting to see marines completely kneecapped. I'm also aware that some 30-40% of the competitive meta has managed to remain non-marine, and that there are some tactics that seem to work, like teleporting a large unit of bloodletters or Orks or something straight into combat with them. It just seems like a unit as ubiquitous as the Space Marine in 40k should not present this insurmountable mathmatical challenge to an enormous percentage of the game that requires weird edge-case tactics to fight against, considering that the new marine playstyle is pretty much as simple as 40k gets: Set up in a stationary block 30" away from target and shoot all game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/24 15:56:17


 
   
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Two problems:

First: Marines aren't supposed to be masters of absolutely everything. They're supposed to be their own rapid-reaction shock force, capable of performing in a variety of areas, but they're not supposed to be a better gunline than Guard/Tau, faster than the Eldar, choppier than Khorne, etc. They're supposed to be good at their own things, not better than everyone else at everything.

Second: "Feeling elite" doesn't require your army to be more cost-effective than everyone else. If one Marine is supposed to be able to take five Guardsmen in a firefight, sure, that's fine, whee, but he shouldn't then be the cost of three Guardsmen, because points are supposed to be there to give us a guide as to what should feel like a fair game against what, not to show off how good Space Marines are by making them better than equal points of everything else.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




The thing is, Intercessors don't have any special rules themselves. Ignoring Chapter Tactics and Doctrines (which is more a rule than the silly ATSKNF, so we can count that as the army wide rule comparable to FTGG and such), they rely on their raw stats. Around half the units you mention have special rules in place for the.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Annandale, VA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The thing is, Intercessors don't have any special rules themselves. Ignoring Chapter Tactics and Doctrines (which is more a rule than the silly ATSKNF, so we can count that as the army wide rule comparable to FTGG and such), they rely on their raw stats. Around half the units you mention have special rules in place for the.


It's mostly melee units, with special rules to help them get into combat faster- which isn't helpful if you then lose once you get there.

Fire Warriors, Guardsmen, and CSM don't get any innate special abilities either to give them non-combat utility. OP didn't even take morale into account, which is a real killer for Guard and Tau.

The point being that even without CTs and Doctrines, which are far and above more powerful than any subfaction ability other factions get, Intercessors are fully capable of beating specialists that, if they're just supposed to be jacks of all trades, they should be losing to.

This may not be relevant for a super high tier competitive meta where Tau aren't taking Fire Warriors and Guardsmen are CP batteries first and foremost, but it's basically ruined casual gaming at least in my local meta.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/24 16:16:38


 
   
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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The thing is, Intercessors don't have any special rules themselves. Ignoring Chapter Tactics and Doctrines (which is more a rule than the silly ATSKNF, so we can count that as the army wide rule comparable to FTGG and such), they rely on their raw stats. Around half the units you mention have special rules in place for the.


Which special rules am I missing out on here? Help me out. I did give the Necrons Resurrection Protocols, even though in practice that rule certainly isn't a given. Genestealers got their bonus attack, Bloodletters got their charge bonus, banshees got their -1 to hit.

I didn't give Tau markerlights or Guardsmen orders, because we're not including supporting buff units - Marines certainly didn't get full hit rerolls and reroll 1s to wound. I wanted to keep it simple, just look at stats vs stats to get a general trend and compare Marines in melee vs dedicated melee units who don't have inbuilt delivery systems and Marines at long range vs units who don't stand a snowballs chance in hell in melee.

marines aren't unbeatable. But just by putting them down on the table, you present your opponent with a challenge they've got to figure out a creative answer to - how to get some specialist shooting unit to appear 12" away from them before getting shot up, or how to get some specialist melee unit (one of the ones that work) into melee with them ignoring overwatch, denying Heroic Interventions, avoiding melee interrupts and using one of the units that can actually get them off the table in significant numbers.



   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Everyone does remember though how the game looked like, when marines did not have those IF, IH and RG rules right? Eldar and tau were running rings around them. They couldn't kill enough orcs before being overun, and struggles against stuff like knights or chaos soups. Taking away the rules would just revert the game to where the minority of players using xeno armies would be beating the majority of marine players. I think people are going to struggle to convince people to ask for nerfs to their own armies, for nothing in return, Specially when future codex, may buff the xeno armies above what marines have now. And I doubt all those people that cry for marine nerfs now, are going to ask for nerfs of their own books.
   
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Karol wrote:
Everyone does remember though how the game looked like, when marines did not have those IF, IH and RG rules right? Eldar and tau were running rings around them. They couldn't kill enough orcs before being overun, and struggles against stuff like knights or chaos soups.


I feel like Marine players just collectively skip over the changes between Codex 1.0 and Codex 2.0, because the points drops to everything in CA18 combined with the standardization of Bolter Discipline as an official rule made for a hell of a difference in how they fared.
   
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Karol wrote:
Everyone does remember though how the game looked like, when marines did not have those IF, IH and RG rules right? Eldar and tau were running rings around them. They couldn't kill enough orcs before being overun, and struggles against stuff like knights or chaos soups. Taking away the rules would just revert the game to where the minority of players using xeno armies would be beating the majority of marine players. I think people are going to struggle to convince people to ask for nerfs to their own armies, for nothing in return, Specially when future codex, may buff the xeno armies above what marines have now. And I doubt all those people that cry for marine nerfs now, are going to ask for nerfs of their own books.


Nope. When Tau are really strong and people complain they have boring, uninteractive gunline rules, I tend to agree. When guard are strong and it feels like these baseline level humans are outperforming supposed superhuman soldiers, I tend to agree. When Eldar are strong and it feels like they have 9000 special rules for how their special guys are the specialest and bestest at everything, I tend to agree.

I'm just applying those exact same standards to marines right now. Pretty much all at once.
   
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Mississippi

Marines are supposed to be the epitome - if not superhuman model of humanity.

But the thing is, even marines are generally inferior to many of the Xenos they face - not as swift or elegant in warfare as the Eldar, not as indestructible as the Necrons, not the unstoppable flood of biomass of the Tyranids or as technologically adaptive as the Tau. Nor are they as brutally cunning as the orcs and their endless destructive waves of hate.

Marines should be outgunned, outmanned and outclassed. But they hold the line because they must and win where they can through sheer tenacity of the human spirit. Not because they are 2W and have better faction doctrines.

It never ends well 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The thing is, Intercessors don't have any special rules themselves. Ignoring Chapter Tactics and Doctrines (which is more a rule than the silly ATSKNF, so we can count that as the army wide rule comparable to FTGG and such), they rely on their raw stats. Around half the units you mention have special rules in place for the.


It's mostly melee units, with special rules to help them get into combat faster- which isn't helpful if you then lose once you get there.

Fire Warriors, Guardsmen, and CSM don't get any innate special abilities either to give them non-combat utility. OP didn't even take morale into account, which is a real killer for Guard and Tau.

The point being that even without CTs and Doctrines, which are far and above more powerful than any subfaction ability other factions get, Intercessors are fully capable of beating specialists that, if they're just supposed to be jacks of all trades, they should be losing to.

This may not be relevant for a super high tier competitive meta where Tau aren't taking Fire Warriors and Guardsmen are CP batteries first and foremost, but it's basically ruined casual gaming at least in my local meta.

I wouldn't even count talking about Chaos Marines, because GW had always treated them like trash since 4th. So meh. Regarding the other units though, you have a point. Tau get a cool Overwatch bonus, but if your opponent never charges you it might as well not exist. Plus getting into combat easier is good when you can better choose favorable combats.

The question is, how much are all those extra abilities worth? Suppose Howling Banshees are suddenly equal in combat with Intercessors, wouldn't they become absurd because they choose their combats and stop Overwatch? Don't get me wrong, I'm for a total rework of different units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The thing is, Intercessors don't have any special rules themselves. Ignoring Chapter Tactics and Doctrines (which is more a rule than the silly ATSKNF, so we can count that as the army wide rule comparable to FTGG and such), they rely on their raw stats. Around half the units you mention have special rules in place for the.


Which special rules am I missing out on here? Help me out. I did give the Necrons Resurrection Protocols, even though in practice that rule certainly isn't a given. Genestealers got their bonus attack, Bloodletters got their charge bonus, banshees got their -1 to hit.

I didn't give Tau markerlights or Guardsmen orders, because we're not including supporting buff units - Marines certainly didn't get full hit rerolls and reroll 1s to wound. I wanted to keep it simple, just look at stats vs stats to get a general trend and compare Marines in melee vs dedicated melee units who don't have inbuilt delivery systems and Marines at long range vs units who don't stand a snowballs chance in hell in melee.

marines aren't unbeatable. But just by putting them down on the table, you present your opponent with a challenge they've got to figure out a creative answer to - how to get some specialist shooting unit to appear 12" away from them before getting shot up, or how to get some specialist melee unit (one of the ones that work) into melee with them ignoring overwatch, denying Heroic Interventions, avoiding melee interrupts and using one of the units that can actually get them off the table in significant numbers.




I kinda laugh at giving Warriors RP, because it's such a non-rule and has been for the entire edition. However I was more referring to the Aspect Warriors listed and Genestealers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/24 16:57:20


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 Stormonu wrote:
Marines are supposed to be the epitome - if not superhuman model of humanity.

But the thing is, even marines are generally inferior to many of the Xenos they face - not as swift or elegant in warfare as the Eldar, not as indestructible as the Necrons, not the unstoppable flood of biomass of the Tyranids or as technologically adaptive as the Tau. Nor are they as brutally cunning as the orcs and their endless destructive waves of hate.

Marines should be outgunned, outmanned and outclassed. But they hold the line because they must and win where they can through sheer tenacity of the human spirit. Not because they are 2W and have better faction doctrines.

100% this!

ATSKNF used to be the winning marine rule. You could kill some marines, but they would snap right back into action while other factions would effectively lose-a-turn.

Now it's MOAR BIGGUR and BIGGERUR BOLTER.

Stupid.

As an aside, who crews the 2000 guns on a Repulsor?

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The thing is, Intercessors don't have any special rules themselves. Ignoring Chapter Tactics and Doctrines (which is more a rule than the silly ATSKNF, so we can count that as the army wide rule comparable to FTGG and such), they rely on their raw stats. Around half the units you mention have special rules in place for the.


It's mostly melee units, with special rules to help them get into combat faster- which isn't helpful if you then lose once you get there.

Fire Warriors, Guardsmen, and CSM don't get any innate special abilities either to give them non-combat utility. OP didn't even take morale into account, which is a real killer for Guard and Tau.

The point being that even without CTs and Doctrines, which are far and above more powerful than any subfaction ability other factions get, Intercessors are fully capable of beating specialists that, if they're just supposed to be jacks of all trades, they should be losing to.

This may not be relevant for a super high tier competitive meta where Tau aren't taking Fire Warriors and Guardsmen are CP batteries first and foremost, but it's basically ruined casual gaming at least in my local meta.

I wouldn't even count talking about Chaos Marines, because GW had always treated them like trash since 4th. So meh. Regarding the other units though, you have a point. Tau get a cool Overwatch bonus, but if your opponent never charges you it might as well not exist. Plus getting into combat easier is good when you can better choose favorable combats.

The question is, how much are all those extra abilities worth? Suppose Howling Banshees are suddenly equal in combat with Intercessors, wouldn't they become absurd because they choose their combats and stop Overwatch? Don't get me wrong, I'm for a total rework of different units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The thing is, Intercessors don't have any special rules themselves. Ignoring Chapter Tactics and Doctrines (which is more a rule than the silly ATSKNF, so we can count that as the army wide rule comparable to FTGG and such), they rely on their raw stats. Around half the units you mention have special rules in place for the.


Which special rules am I missing out on here? Help me out. I did give the Necrons Resurrection Protocols, even though in practice that rule certainly isn't a given. Genestealers got their bonus attack, Bloodletters got their charge bonus, banshees got their -1 to hit.

I didn't give Tau markerlights or Guardsmen orders, because we're not including supporting buff units - Marines certainly didn't get full hit rerolls and reroll 1s to wound. I wanted to keep it simple, just look at stats vs stats to get a general trend and compare Marines in melee vs dedicated melee units who don't have inbuilt delivery systems and Marines at long range vs units who don't stand a snowballs chance in hell in melee.

marines aren't unbeatable. But just by putting them down on the table, you present your opponent with a challenge they've got to figure out a creative answer to - how to get some specialist shooting unit to appear 12" away from them before getting shot up, or how to get some specialist melee unit (one of the ones that work) into melee with them ignoring overwatch, denying Heroic Interventions, avoiding melee interrupts and using one of the units that can actually get them off the table in significant numbers.




I kinda laugh at giving Warriors RP, because it's such a non-rule and has been for the entire edition. However I was more referring to the Aspect Warriors listed and Genestealers.


Yeah...I know. I gave a bunch of units rules that they would not always get. For starters, I took a unit with a THIRTY INCH RANGE GUN and then assumed a bunch of melee-only specialists would magically teleport into range with them. I ignored the free round of shooting that the harlequins/banshees/genestealers/daemonettes would have to take before their 8" move+Advance and Charge would get them into melee, or the points you'd have to pay for transports/CPs to pay for Teleports you'd have to use to bypass that. I ignored the overwatch all but banshees would be tanking.

Intercessors are a gunline shooting unit first and have their melee rules as a fething backup plan. If Banshees did the same damage as intercessors in melee, they would not be absurd because you can't plonk howling banshees down on the table and hose Fire Warriors and Guardsmen down from 30" away, you have to get their squishy asses into melee to make all their rules do anything.
   
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Fluff and lore-wise? Movie marines. But that doesn't sell people a large army of plastic. This is understandable for an "army" based game. Fluff and lore-wise, Eldar Aspect Warriors should be a close second, but they're nowhere near as good as they're said to be in books, etc. I don't think most players would be happy with a single marine or aspect warrior chopping through ten of their Ork boys as if they were chaff.

 
   
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The dark hollows of Kentucky

Isn't part of the problem the sheer number of good units sm have? They have the best internally balanced codex in the game, with few bad options.

And when compared to supposedly equal units, at least in name and cost, fielded by csm the loyalists option is still better. If a loyalist land raider, predator, vindicator, or leviathan goes up against its heretic counterpart it's going to win the majority of the time. For the same points. Doctrines need to be taken into consideration in all sm points costs just as they were in the case of tacticals vs csm.
   
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In this game when you charge you win the combat. Marines can win a combat if they charge...however - they have basically no mechanics to charge with.
Literally all the examples you listed are much more likely to charge the marines due to the fact they are faster or have deep strike charge mechanics.

Transports are terrible and or too expensive. They aren't quick. Plus no real other methods of mobility (yes RG and WS do have mechanics for this) more often than not though - Marines melee ability is an afterthought.

Another point. Intercessors do really well against light infantry but do really poorly against tough units like custodians guards and broadsides. I assure you a unit of harlequin troops out-damages intercessors vs broadsides or custodian gaurd in melee. Just speaking on stats here...I agree that some of the chapter tactics / super-doctrines are absurd.

In general. Intercessors rek light units and do poorly against actual elite units - youd rather have chaff or no troops at all against really elite unit - like knights or SG or shinning spears.

IMO they finally got the marine feel right with the base stats on the intercessor - marines being terrible really wasn't doing it for anyone but marine haters (of which there are plenty).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Isn't part of the problem the sheer number of good units sm have? They have the best internally balanced codex in the game, with few bad options.

And when compared to supposedly equal units, at least in name and cost, fielded by csm the loyalists option is still better. If a loyalist land raider, predator, vindicator, or leviathan goes up against its heretic counterpart it's going to win the majority of the time. For the same points. Doctrines need to be taken into consideration in all sm points costs just as they were in the case of tacticals vs csm.

In the choas vs loyalist balance issues it appears they have gone for a different approach. Choas has weaker base rules - but better stratagem efficiency. I don't like it anymore than you do but...there is no denying that choas can buff a unit out the wazzo - much more than space marines can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Stormonu wrote:
Marines are supposed to be the epitome - if not superhuman model of humanity.

But the thing is, even marines are generally inferior to many of the Xenos they face - not as swift or elegant in warfare as the Eldar, not as indestructible as the Necrons, not the unstoppable flood of biomass of the Tyranids or as technologically adaptive as the Tau. Nor are they as brutally cunning as the orcs and their endless destructive waves of hate.

Marines should be outgunned, outmanned and outclassed. But they hold the line because they must and win where they can through sheer tenacity of the human spirit. Not because they are 2W and have better faction doctrines.

Not sure what fluff you are reading...marines are certainly always outnumbered and outgunned. Outclassed though? Nope...their quality can not be overstated. Mary sue? Maybe. They are the heros of the story though. A marine should be a lot harder to kill than an ork.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/24 17:26:01


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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Sweden

Even the internal marines balance is gak. Primaris units were made to sell. They are too cheap and too good compared to other factions units and to regular marines too.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
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Gitdakka wrote:
Even the internal marines balance is gak. Primaris units were made to sell. They are too cheap and too good compared to other factions units and to regular marines too.

This is untrue. The only primaris units that really sees play are the intercessor and the eliminators. Why? Because it is a troop and you have to take troops and eliminators are amazing. Aggressors too are pretty good but not good enough for most armies to include them in their list. Get it through your head. It is okay for marines to have some good units. The internal balance is really bad though you got that right.

SR/LR/Rhino/Razor/drop pod/ preditor / Repulsors/ Repulsor executioner. All that gak is totally unplayable compared to impuslors and venerable dreads. Then you have assault cents (not primaris ether) (chaplain dreads - which they don't even make a model for anymore) None of GW rules have anything to do with being priced to sell. They just don't put a lot of thought into it at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/24 17:57:59


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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It's certainly better internal balance than any other Codex has.
   
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 flandarz wrote:
It's certainly better internal balance than any other Codex has.

Orks do have some really bad units. Maybe even some units worse than a land raider.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
In this game when you charge you win the combat. Marines can win a combat if they charge...however - they have basically no mechanics to charge with.
Literally all the examples you listed are much more likely to charge the marines due to the fact they are faster or have deep strike charge mechanics.

Transports are terrible and or too expensive. They aren't quick. Plus no real other methods of mobility (yes RG and WS do have mechanics for this) more often than not though - Marines melee ability is an afterthought.

Another point. Intercessors do really well against light infantry but do really poorly against tough units like custodians guards and broadsides. I assure you a unit of harlequin troops out-damages intercessors vs broadsides or custodian gaurd in melee. Just speaking on stats here...I agree that some of the chapter tactics / super-doctrines are absurd.

In general. Intercessors rek light units and do poorly against actual elite units - youd rather have chaff or no troops at all against really elite unit - like knights or SG or shinning spears.

IMO they finally got the marine feel right with the base stats on the intercessor - marines being terrible really wasn't doing it for anyone but marine haters (of which there are plenty).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Isn't part of the problem the sheer number of good units sm have? They have the best internally balanced codex in the game, with few bad options.

And when compared to supposedly equal units, at least in name and cost, fielded by csm the loyalists option is still better. If a loyalist land raider, predator, vindicator, or leviathan goes up against its heretic counterpart it's going to win the majority of the time. For the same points. Doctrines need to be taken into consideration in all sm points costs just as they were in the case of tacticals vs csm.

In the choas vs loyalist balance issues it appears they have gone for a different approach. Choas has weaker base rules - but better stratagem efficiency. I don't like it anymore than you do but...there is no denying that choas can buff a unit out the wazzo - much more than space marines can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Stormonu wrote:
Marines are supposed to be the epitome - if not superhuman model of humanity.

But the thing is, even marines are generally inferior to many of the Xenos they face - not as swift or elegant in warfare as the Eldar, not as indestructible as the Necrons, not the unstoppable flood of biomass of the Tyranids or as technologically adaptive as the Tau. Nor are they as brutally cunning as the orcs and their endless destructive waves of hate.

Marines should be outgunned, outmanned and outclassed. But they hold the line because they must and win where they can through sheer tenacity of the human spirit. Not because they are 2W and have better faction doctrines.

Not sure what fluff you are reading...marines are certainly always outnumbered and outgunned. Outclassed though? Nope...their quality can not be overstated. Mary sue? Maybe. They are the heros of the story though. A marine should be a lot harder to kill than an ork.


I'm sorry, do we live in a universe where it makes sense for a space marine equipped with a gun to compete with a dedicated melee specialist against a unit like a custode? Regardless, Harlequins are fething horrible against custodes, 0.44 wounds on average. Want to kill 1 Custode? Take 7 harlequins. And then the remaining 2 custodes in the minimum squad kill 2 harlequins in your turn, then 2 harlequins when they strike first in their turn, and finish off the squad if you don't fall back on your turn. But YoU wIn WhEn YoU cHaRgE.

Just for you, let's do an actual full mathhammer for that harlequin vs intercessor fight given your claim here. We'll ignore doctrines and chapter tactics again, and give the harlequins the ability to instantly materialize 2" away and charge, they can't fail. But since we're talking about their ability to advance and charge, no pistol attacks for the harlequins.

Overwatch: .56 dead harlequins.
Harlequin first round: 4.9 wounds.
Intercessor first round: 2.44 dead harlequins
Intercessors turn, 3 pistols kill .66 harlequins and 8 melee attacks kill 1.77.

5.4 average harlequins dead. 2 intercessors dead, 1 wounded.

A game where a melee specialist can get the first strike against a 30" range gunline infantry unit that costs exactly equal points and lose all their models before they can even take the other guy down under half strength is fethed.

taking it out to the big squads I looked at in the initial example makes it even worse, because other factions actually have morale rules to some extent. You get a little over 11 genestealers for the cost of 10 intercessors. It's about 11.33, the intercessors kill 1.2 in overwatch so we'll say 10 make it in. The genestealers kill 4.1 intercessors in the first round and lose 6.6 in return, taking 1 from morale on average. Then the next round the intercessors kill the remaining 5 genestealers easily between pistols and melee.

Charging does not. make. a difference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/24 18:34:55


 
   
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the_scotsman wrote:

In this scenario, we are ignoring a number of hugely advantageous mechanics that marines enjoy: Doctrines, their near immunity to morale, their access to reroll to hit/reroll 1s to wound double aura bubbles for a total of 2CP and 125pts, their top tier chapter tactics, their access to twice as many stratagems, relics, psychic powers and warlord traits than most factions get, etc.


Seeking out a monolith within marines does a disservice to the real issues.

1) The doctrines do not apply until turn 2 in the scenario you made - unless they're SBRs and IH
2) Morale is a meh this edition - nids run less than my rubrics do and they're just dust...
3) Rerolls come at a cost (as noted) and don't usually cover the whole army (barring IH)
4) Most Chapters offer little in regards to this scenario (barring IH)
5) Stratagems / Powers come at a (sometimes too low) cost (See : IH)

The thing I find most absurd about marines is the option to take as many relics as they wish without an increase in cost as well as the very strong WL traits, but will UM super doc matter much if genestealers are charging turn 1? Will WS ever get to utilize their D2?

Full his rerolls are also problematic on units with higher BS when targeting units with negatives to hit, but this mostly affects stacking flyers.

   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

In this scenario, we are ignoring a number of hugely advantageous mechanics that marines enjoy: Doctrines, their near immunity to morale, their access to reroll to hit/reroll 1s to wound double aura bubbles for a total of 2CP and 125pts, their top tier chapter tactics, their access to twice as many stratagems, relics, psychic powers and warlord traits than most factions get, etc.


Seeking out a monolith within marines does a disservice to the real issues.

1) The doctrines do not apply until turn 2 in the scenario you made - unless they're SBRs and IH
2) Morale is a meh this edition - nids run less than my rubrics do and they're just dust...
3) Rerolls come at a cost (as noted) and don't usually cover the whole army (barring IH)
4) Most Chapters offer little in regards to this scenario (barring IH)
5) Stratagems / Powers come at a (sometimes too low) cost (See : IH)

The thing I find most absurd about marines is the option to take as many relics as they wish without an increase in cost as well as the very strong WL traits, but will UM super doc matter much if genestealers are charging turn 1? Will WS ever get to utilize their D2?

Full his rerolls are also problematic on units with higher BS when targeting units with negatives to hit, but this mostly affects stacking flyers.


Yeah - as I just said to Xeno, equivalent points of genestealers still lose to marines if they get the charge off turn 1, with no rerolls, no doctrines, no chapter tactics, no marine player even needing to fall back, no nothing. Just overwatch, genestealers attack with their +1A bonus, marines hit back, marines shoot pistols, and then marines hit first on their turn. That's enough for 10 marines to kill 11 genestealers comfortably (rounding down because you technically get 11.3 genestealers but they lose 1.2 to overwatch).

To be blunt, I don't think what you and I consider "the real issues" are the same thing. I honestly couldn't give less of a gak about what faction is winning competitively if it didn't affect simple games with people just playing their model collections against each other. If a list made up of 90 scout bikes+saint celestine or 26 culexus assassins was totally unbeatable at LVO and was 100% of the competitive lists people brought, it would do precisely nothing to affect me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/24 18:40:43


 
   
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The_scotsman, I agree with your overall point but I think you're off regarding Genestealers specifically. You should be able to get 17 Genestealers for the price of 12 Intercessors.

12 Intercessors fire Overwatch against 17 Genestealers, they kill 1.33 on average.

15.67 Genestealers swing, 4 attacks each, average 14 wounds for 7 kills.

5 Intercessors swing back, 3.33 kills.

The Genestealers have taken out 58% of their opposition, while the Intercessors have taken out 27%.

Which means that the glassiest of glass hammers, designed specifically to kill Marines in melee, making it into charge range completely unscathed, going up against basic Marines- barely average twice the efficiency, can't kill their own points' worth, and will certainly die in the opponent's next turn.

This is all in a scenario concocted to avoid the massive investment that Tyranids need to get a full-strength T1 Genestealer charge (Swarmlord, usually Kraken, going first), and ignoring the myriad tricks that Marines have to ruin the whole thing.

That's extremely underwhelming. And Genestealers are generally regarded as pretty good, so the problem isn't with them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/24 18:51:24


 
   
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Stormonu wrote:Marines are supposed to be the epitome - if not superhuman model of humanity.

But the thing is, even marines are generally inferior to many of the Xenos they face - not as swift or elegant in warfare as the Eldar, not as indestructible as the Necrons, not the unstoppable flood of biomass of the Tyranids or as technologically adaptive as the Tau. Nor are they as brutally cunning as the orcs and their endless destructive waves of hate.

Marines should be outgunned, outmanned and outclassed. But they hold the line because they must and win where they can through sheer tenacity of the human spirit. Not because they are 2W and have better faction doctrines.
Eh, can't say I agree. You're welcome to your interpretation, but I've never seen it that way.

A Space Marine should be feared by all who face them. It's GUARDSMEN who are inferior in every way to xenos races, but not the Astartes. The Astartes are as strong as an Ork Nob, as fast as an Eldar, as resilient as a Necron, as relentless as a Tyranid, and on a similar technological parity with Tau (Marines have power through brute force, Tau have power through perfect science and engineering).

Where a Space Marine fails is that there are so few of them. Each one is a squad, a small army unto itself, but the enemy is so much more numerous that even the apex of humanity (barring the Custodes, who are pretty much just the same thing to Marines as Marines are to everything else) must rely on their fearlessness and wits to triumph.

So no, I can agree that they should be outmanned, and as a result, outgunned (by volume, not quality), but outclassed? Hell no. If an Eldar is faced with a Space Marine, they should be scared. An Ork fighting a Space Marine will see it as a great challenge, or flee, if sufficiently prompted. A Tyranid synapse creature will see a Space Marine as a high priority target and allocate far more resources than necessary to take one out, as a grave threat to the Hive. Tau will look on in awe and terror as great brutish battlesuits shrugging off their fire rip and tear through their lines. Space Marines are, and should be, terrifyingly powerful. The catch is that they're mortal, and there's never enough of them.

It's guardmen who are the embodiment of human spirit, not the Space Marines. Astartes are the embodiment of humanity's brutality in war, and their answer to the horrors of the void.

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 catbarf wrote:
The_scotsman, I agree with your overall point but I think you're off regarding Genestealers specifically. You should be able to get 17 Genestealers for the price of 12 Intercessors.

12 Intercessors fire Overwatch against 17 Genestealers, they kill 1.33 on average.

15.67 Genestealers swing, 4 attacks each, average 14 wounds for 7 kills.

5 Intercessors swing back, 3.33 kills.

The Genestealers have taken out 58% of their opposition, while the Intercessors have taken out 27%.

Which means that the glassiest of glass hammers, designed specifically to kill Marines in melee, making it into charge range completely unscathed, going up against basic Marines- barely average twice the efficiency, can't kill their own points' worth, and will certainly die in the opponent's next turn.

This is all in a scenario concocted to avoid the massive investment that Tyranids need to get a full-strength T1 Genestealer charge (Swarmlord, usually Kraken, going first), and ignoring the myriad tricks that Marines have to ruin the whole thing.

That's extremely underwhelming. And Genestealers are generally regarded as pretty good, so the problem isn't with them.


Am I going nuts or do genestealers cost 1 point more for GSC then? I could swear they were 15ppm. Least that's what I paid for them in my last list.

I went for 10 vs 11 because it allowed me to field an actually legal squad of intercessors (IIRC you can't field 12 Intercessors) and it allowed the GS to still get their extra attack after the Overwatch, because I knew if they didn't get it someone would complain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Stormonu wrote:Marines are supposed to be the epitome - if not superhuman model of humanity.

But the thing is, even marines are generally inferior to many of the Xenos they face - not as swift or elegant in warfare as the Eldar, not as indestructible as the Necrons, not the unstoppable flood of biomass of the Tyranids or as technologically adaptive as the Tau. Nor are they as brutally cunning as the orcs and their endless destructive waves of hate.

Marines should be outgunned, outmanned and outclassed. But they hold the line because they must and win where they can through sheer tenacity of the human spirit. Not because they are 2W and have better faction doctrines.
Eh, can't say I agree. You're welcome to your interpretation, but I've never seen it that way.

A Space Marine should be feared by all who face them. It's GUARDSMEN who are inferior in every way to xenos races, but not the Astartes. The Astartes are as strong as an Ork Nob, as fast as an Eldar, as resilient as a Necron, as relentless as a Tyranid, and on a similar technological parity with Tau (Marines have power through brute force, Tau have power through perfect science and engineering).

Where a Space Marine fails is that there are so few of them. Each one is a squad, a small army unto itself, but the enemy is so much more numerous that even the apex of humanity (barring the Custodes, who are pretty much just the same thing to Marines as Marines are to everything else) must rely on their fearlessness and wits to triumph.

So no, I can agree that they should be outmanned, and as a result, outgunned (by volume, not quality), but outclassed? Hell no. If an Eldar is faced with a Space Marine, they should be scared. An Ork fighting a Space Marine will see it as a great challenge, or flee, if sufficiently prompted. A Tyranid synapse creature will see a Space Marine as a high priority target and allocate far more resources than necessary to take one out, as a grave threat to the Hive. Tau will look on in awe and terror as great brutish battlesuits shrugging off their fire rip and tear through their lines. Space Marines are, and should be, terrifyingly powerful. The catch is that they're mortal, and there's never enough of them.

It's guardmen who are the embodiment of human spirit, not the Space Marines. Astartes are the embodiment of humanity's brutality in war, and their answer to the horrors of the void.


Or, you know. Stronger than an ork nob, slightly slower than an eldar, WAY tougher than a necron, WAY better guns than a Tau, and...well "Relentless" isn't really a word that means anything, you just said it because it's a thing you can say Tyranids are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/24 19:10:50


 
   
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Vigo. Spain.

Intercessors have gone from trash to the best troop on the game. And with that they are also better than many other infantry units.
The best thing about intercessors is that they dont need that much support to be good. I eat intercessors for breakfast with my saggitarum, unless they are IH with stalkers. But other troops? They are bonned

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:
Isn't part of the problem the sheer number of good units sm have? They have the best internally balanced codex in the game, with few bad options.

And when compared to supposedly equal units, at least in name and cost, fielded by csm the loyalists option is still better. If a loyalist land raider, predator, vindicator, or leviathan goes up against its heretic counterpart it's going to win the majority of the time. For the same points. Doctrines need to be taken into consideration in all sm points costs just as they were in the case of tacticals vs csm.

In the choas vs loyalist balance issues it appears they have gone for a different approach. Choas has weaker base rules - but better stratagem efficiency. I don't like it anymore than you do but...there is no denying that choas can buff a unit out the wazzo - much more than space marines can.

I'm afraid you may have misunderstood me. I was trying to argue that sm units that are shared with csm are under costed, not just against csm, but against everyone, as they are superior due to doctrines and stronger chapter tactics. Before c:sm 2.0 and the supplements those units were basically equal without buffing effects, so it made sense for them to be the same price. That's no longer the case.
   
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the_scotsman wrote:

To be blunt, I don't think what you and I consider "the real issues" are the same thing. I honestly couldn't give less of a gak about what faction is winning competitively if it didn't affect simple games with people just playing their model collections against each other. If a list made up of 90 scout bikes+saint celestine or 26 culexus assassins was totally unbeatable at LVO and was 100% of the competitive lists people brought, it would do precisely nothing to affect me.


Yea, I got to witness the absurd-ness of IH dreads two weekends ago. It got crushed by DA of all things.

Intercessors were barely ever part of the equation.

   
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Firstly, your maths is wrong for several of those calculations.
17 Genestealers attacking with rending claws is 68 attacks, 45.33 hits, 15.11 wounds at AP-1 and 7.55 wounds at AP-4 for a total of 15.11 unsaved wounds and 7.55 dead intercessors (128 points).

12 Intercessors including sergeant is 37 attacks, 24.66 hits, 12.33 wounds and 8.22 unsaved wounds for 99 points of dead genestealers.

Secondly, the most important aspect of a melee unit is its ability to get into melee. The game is littered with high damage melee units that simply can't get there. Raven Guard Assault Cents = amazing. Other Assault Cents = opposite of amazing.

Along a similar vein, Reapers come off horribly in your comparison despite being an excellent anti marine unit, but you ignored range.

For what it's worth, I do think Shock Assault is too powerful, I think it would be better if marines only got it when they charged.
   
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the_scotsman wrote:

Am I going nuts or do genestealers cost 1 point more for GSC then? I could swear they were 15ppm. Least that's what I paid for them in my last list.

You aren't going nuts.
GSC Purestrain genestealers cost 15ppm, while tyranid hive fleet genestealers cost 12ppm.
In addition to being 3 points cheaper, the tyranid version also get a bunch of extra upgrade options, and are able to take a hive fleet ability (the GSC version does not get to use a cult ability). All the GSC version gets in exchange is cult ambush, which is basically just the ability to deepstrike.
Genestealer cults get gakky genestealers.

EDIT: Oh nevermind, I thought this was in relation to you realizing GSC ones cost more than tyranid ones. I think I misread that post.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/24 19:42:30


 
   
 
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