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WARNING POSSIBLE SPOILERS!!

Put on your tinfoil hats, make the sign of the Aquila and Praise the Emperor...and then assassinate your best friend! Its Alpha Legion discussion time!

If you're here you've probably, like myself, indulged in most rumours and what if's about the Alpha legion as I have, or you're here to tell me to get a life and that GW has no love for the boys in blue..or green..or purple..or [REDACTED].
But I have a few things I've been pondering over as I create some background for my own tabletop AL army.

So here's what we know, or will need to know:
1. According to the Cabal, the AL are destined to undo what Horus began.
2. The AL had operatives literally buried on Terra before Horus' treason was revealed.
3. Rogal Dorn killed Alpharius. That is confirmed. But I'm still gonna be that guy to an extent because...
4. Alpharius was able to transfer his consciousness into a regular marine.
5. The Emperor hates being considered a God.
6. The Imperium worships the God Emperor
7. The Emperor is a perpetual (immortal), surely someone other than him had to know that right?

So these are the questions I've considered:

When AL marines say they're Alpharius, could this be more than just a ruse? If Alpharius was able to transfer his consciousness into a marine, is there the possibility that the AL have discovered a way to "upload" the primarchs' consciousness to a hive mind or the like. There isn't really any particular explanation to how the AL convince people to join them. Also, when Alpharius was killed Omegon clearly sensed his death. I wonder if it's more than just a "twin thing", could one of them or both of them actually have Psychic abilities. And could it be possible that, like Fabius Bile once did with Horus, they have the technology to clone or create "primarch bodies" or at least upload the primarchs' consciousness into the mind of a regular marine to act as a puppet?

Referring back to the death of Alpharius, which I do understand the author confirmed, is there more to it or is it just a bad way to kill Alpharius? Alpharius isn't stupid, he knows how much of all his brothers that Rogal Dorn despises him and distrusts him. He also knows that he really wouldn't stand a chance against Rogal Dorn in combat. Saying that though, it's obvious from the fight that Alpharius had no intention of actually trying to kill him, just slow him down enough to try and talk to him. Rogal was the closest to the Emperor at the time, the only one to really be able to protect the Emperor. Despite the distrust Alpharius had no choice but to try and convince Rogal Dorn. I think he knew if he tried sending an operative in his place Rogal Dorn would know it wasn't him and there would be absolutely no chance Rogal would listen. Alpharius knew if he had even a sliver of convincing him he had to go himself, yet at the same time I simply just don't believe Alpharius would have thrown his life way. He would benefit in no way dying a martyr, so surely there had to be some kind of of plan set in place in the obvious likelihood that Rogal was Rogal and just decided to kill him.

The biggest argument is whether or not the AL are loyal or traitor. And its obvious from books that they're both. There's definitely those that have embraced Chaos, and definitely those that fight for the Emperor, the one thing they all seem to have in common though is Legion first, Imperium second. But what if all this time, assuming that Alpharius or Omegon are alive in some form, assuming they are still loyal to the Emperor, and assuming they still wish to undo what Horus began, that they know the Emperor is a perpetual and have been biding their time to infiltrate the Imperial Palace, get to the Golden Throne and release the Emperor from his life support. Ultimately, killing him, but allowing him to revive to the Emperor he once was and restoring the Imperium to its former glory.
I personally would love to see a story arc where the Emperor returns and tries tearing apart the Ecclesiarchy and all those who "worship" him.

I feel like if any legion have the patience and ability to wait for the perfect time in which to carry out this task it would have to be the AL, and it would have to be soon in the story line, with Abaddon coming for Terra.
I would love to hear what you all have to think about it, and would love to hear some fresh opinions!



TLDR Could the Alpha Legion release the Emperor from his Golden Throne in order to resurrect him and bring about a new age of redemption for the Imperium?

You have to remember that, as far as we know, Alpharius didn’t do mind swapping. (OR DID HE????????)

He was, however, short enough that he could easily pass for a slightly tall marine. AL used this to their advantage, hence “I am Alpharius”.

Unless I’ve misunderstood your point.

yes it's too late. thats entirely the point, the Alpha legion screwed up, their contribution lead to the outcome they wanted to avoid. (In fact one wonders if they outright got played) and now they've become a shattered legion whose left hand doesn't know what the rights doing. all the the traitor legions are, essentially tragic figures whose fall was brought about by their own character and flaws. the bloody thristy ones lost control of their blood lust, the sneaky ones fell into a trap of their own making etc

Have you seen lego movie 2? What if i were to tell you Omegon is actually Rex and on his return Rex resumed the mantel of Emmit, while Emmit emulated Rex until Rex was defeated and Emmit became Rex for real?

I think the cabal showed the Alpharius and Omegon 2 outcomes and they chose a third.

1 option was defeat Horus and have the stagnation of humanity the other help Horus win and he will destroy humanity and chaos in the process.

I can’t believe they would accept either. AL wouldn’t have sided with Horus if he had just approached them in the same way that he did other traitors and the twin primarchs are described as being fiercely loyal to the emperor and his cause so I can’t imagine they would accept the destruction of humanity.

I think they are playing both sides and working on theirnown Objective.

I think GW have the opportunity do something really unique with AL in 40k let’s see if they take it. I imagine an AL codex that reads from front to back and back to front. If you read it back to front you get a traitor list and front to back a loyalist list.

All the Primarchs have a degree of psychic ability , that’s why Omegon knew. The fact he knew confirms that no transference was possible as Alpharius “soul” couldn’t be both leaving and being split.

We know from Cawl’s memories that transference is possible with the right technology but both the bodies need to be living.

I think the Alpha Legion got played like Horus did , the outcomes the Cabal showed were mixed up and selective. They don’t account for humanity evolving which is what we are seeing hints of in Psychic Awakening or elements like psychic blanks/pariah gene/untouchables.

There are many many hints throughout the Heresy series that the Emperor says he doesn’t want to be worshipped and that he sees religions as hurting humanity. That’s not the same thing as people believing in him and creating a religion. He’s cleared the competition and, in the context of the 30J universe , we are shown proof that faith in the Emperor can be used as a weapon I.e it’s real.

I definatly agree that the AL got played. keep in mind if the Cabel can see other futures, one in which humanity wins and realizes it's potential would likely be terrifying for them.

It is obvious from Legion and other future books that the AL didn't trust the Cabal, I believe in one they actually kill the Cabal representative. And like always it's never really clear what their true motive is. I do believe they genuinely supported the Emperor, at least initially. So I don't know what motive would have caused them to stray from that path.
Also I wonder if the Cabal should have foreseen that Horus killing the Emperor would have just resulted in the Emperor's resurrection. Of course at the time of writing Legion it could just have been as simple as GW not having decided the Emperor was a perpetual.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
I think GW have the opportunity do something really unique with AL in 40k let’s see if they take it. I imagine an AL codex that reads from front to back and back to front. If you read it back to front you get a traitor list and front to back a loyalist list.

I'd really like something like that to happen. After reading all the novel's they're involved in, reading their lore in the codex is just so disappointing. I am really hoping that sometime in the future GW do a focus on them. It doesn't have to be some crazy twist, though it probably will be, but just some closure.
I mean in the books it really just explains that they think of everything that could go wrong and prepare for it, hence why things always seem to go to plan. I just really hope when they do a primarch book for the twins it has some closure in it, and isn't just another confusing open ended contradiction


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DalekCheese wrote:
You have to remember that, as far as we know, Alpharius didn’t do mind swapping. (OR DID HE????????)

He was, however, short enough that he could easily pass for a slightly tall marine. AL used this to their advantage, hence “I am Alpharius”.

Unless I’ve misunderstood your point.

In Praetorian of Dorn, with the help of AL psykers, Alpharius and a character called Silonius actually did transfer their consciousnesses to each other's body. It wasn't the regular stand in trick they do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TwilightSparkles wrote:

There are many many hints throughout the Heresy series that the Emperor says he doesn’t want to be worshipped and that he sees religions as hurting humanity. That’s not the same thing as people believing in him and creating a religion. He’s cleared the competition and, in the context of the 30J universe , we are shown proof that faith in the Emperor can be used as a weapon I.e it’s real.

I agree, we do definitely see moments when the faith is an actual weapon. However, if you've not read the First Heretic you definitely should, the Word Bearers are completely shamed by the Emperor and Guilliman for encouraging those they've brought to compliance to worship the Emperor as a god. To the extent that the Emperor asks the Ultramarines to destroy the cities and all monuments erected of him. It's essentially what pushes the Word Bearers into worshipping "other gods".

mrFickle wrote:
I think the cabal showed the Alpharius and Omegon 2 outcomes and they chose a third.

Agreed. Finding a third option would even be inkeeping with the conversation earlier in Legion where they talk about the importance of debate and alternative options.

Personally, I really really hope that Alpharius didn't actually die in Praetorian of Dorn, mostly because it would mean that one of the more overtly clever of the primarchs died in a tremendously stupid (and underwhelming) fashion.

So here are a few things we know:
* Some AL have embraced chaos while others have not.
* Omegon was doing shenanigans behind Alpharius's back post-Legion per the short story from Primarchs.
* I may be misremembering this, but I believe that drinking some of Omegron's blood allowed an AL operative to impersonate his primarch well enough to fool the other AL on his team.
* Psychic reconstruction/body swapping is a thing.
* Twins in the 40k universe seem to share a soul at birth. This is explicitly true of various eldar characters, seems to hold up for Ahriman and his twin, and would make sense for Alpharius and Omegon. As eldar grow older, their joint soul eventually splits into two souls. This may be true for their human (and primarch) counterparts as well.

Sooooooo. With that in mind, my headcanon is that the twins decided they needed to pursue a third option after the event of Legion. They realized they needed to infiltrate Horus's rebellion, but they also realized that they'd be under a ton of scrutiny. So my theory is that they used some form of intense psychic reconstruction to make Alpharius forget/make him blind to their overarching scheme. As far as Alpharius is concerned, they were (are?) genuinely working to support Horus. He believes this thoroughly enough to hold up under the psychic scrutiny.

Meanwhile, Omegon's job is to fake his own death (possibly losing his actual body in the process). Between psychic reconstruction and the trick with drinking his own blood, he might still be capable of scheming just as well as ever. For a primarch whose main strength was always subterfuge and trickery, the loss of a primarch body is a small price to pay for the freedom to operate covertly. Heck, being physically a normal astartes instead of a primarch would even make him harder to identify! He could even be alive in the 41st millenium by continuing to use psychic surgery and/or chunks of his own corpse to body hop as needed.

So yeah. I think Alpharius intentionally had himself brainwashed into believing in the chaos cause. I think getting killed by Dorn was an intentionally very public and "trustworthy" way of staging Omegon's death. I think ditching his physical body added to Omegon's anonymity and may have even contributed to taking him off of Alpharius's "twin sense" radar. And I like to think that he's out there, scheming up schemes and trying to guide the future to a more desirable third outcome using a Legion that has neither the support nor the organization it once relied upon to function.

Oddly I have no issue with Alpharius dying as a result of one of his "overly clever" schemes back firing on him. it's kinda the fitting end for a convoluted schemer

I like the ideas we are seeing here and it would be 100% alpha legion to make a 10k+ year plan.

Perhaps their first plan failed so they are bringing back the primarchs from both sides for another war. It seems sensible to me that humanity should survive but suffer such losses that their collective presence in the warp can no longer fuel chaos to the extent that they do. A bit like the eldar now.

Alpha Legion are really intersting, but all the "aha, just as we planned" in response to every defeat/setback is particularly tiresome.

 harlokin wrote:
Alpha Legion are really intersting, but all the "aha, just as we planned" in response to every defeat/setback is particularly tiresome.

This exactly! It's the same as argueing with a conspiracy-theorist....at some point all arguments become "That's what you meant to believe"

 harlokin wrote:
Alpha Legion are really intersting, but all the "aha, just as we planned" in response to every defeat/setback is particularly tiresome.

Personally I think they split between loyalist and traitors in the heresy and since then the chaos ones have stayed alpha legion warbands and the loyalists turned into chapters.

pm713 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Alpha Legion are really intersting, but all the "aha, just as we planned" in response to every defeat/setback is particularly tiresome.

Personally I think they split between loyalist and traitors in the heresy and since then the chaos ones have stayed alpha legion warbands and the loyalists turned into chapters.

Thats' my take on it too, and it fits the dualistic nature of the Legion very well.

 harlokin wrote:
Alpha Legion are really intersting, but all the "aha, just as we planned" in response to every defeat/setback is particularly tiresome.

Yeah that would be boring and I don’t like it when people suggest the same about the emperor. But there no reason AL can’t be working their own angle over the long term.

mrFickle wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Alpha Legion are really intersting, but all the "aha, just as we planned" in response to every defeat/setback is particularly tiresome.

Yeah that would be boring and I don’t like it when people suggest the same about the emperor. But there no reason AL can’t be working their own angle over the long term.

I enjoy the idea that they've been working so many differant angles for so long they've basicly forgotten what their original angle was. the classic case of the under cover guy who becomes what he's pretending to be.

BrianDavion wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Alpha Legion are really intersting, but all the "aha, just as we planned" in response to every defeat/setback is particularly tiresome.

Yeah that would be boring and I don’t like it when people suggest the same about the emperor. But there no reason AL can’t be working their own angle over the long term.

I enjoy the idea that they've been working so many differant angles for so long they've basicly forgotten what their original angle was. the classic case of the under cover guy who becomes what he's pretending to be.

That's how I see it. Especially the princes and possessed warbands are way too far gone by now to even care what Alpharius and Omegon have wanted, or at the very least have an extremely twisted and deviated version that the primarchs would not recognize at all.

I'm really loving all these thoughts and opinions so thanks everyone!
I definitely agree with the "that's how it was always meant to be", its honestly a bit of a cop out. But I do appreciate when an author goes into detail about how their plans do unfold, and how they come up with plans if things go awry.

Shroud of Night is a really great book for looking at a modern 40k Alpha Legion warband that is still arguably loyalist. It follows a small squad of legionnaires forced into working for an Emperor's children warband, however due to being trapped on a daemon world for some time, the characters in the warband all show different levels of corruption. From one end of being completely fine and despising their corrupt brethren to others in the group talking in riddles or just laughing into their vox. One thing that shows however is that as long as they remain loyal to the legion and the primarch, the leader of the group at least, has no issue with keeping them around.
It seems the AL, like with most life, aren't necessarily compassionate about it, but will be cared for, as long as it remains useful towards them at least. Such as their human operatives and xenos "allies".

Its thankful that we have these novels because they're the only lore we have that actually gives us solid information and characters regarding the AL, and not just some conspiratorial garbage.

I really hope when they do an Alpharius Omegon prmarch book, they give the fans an honest read, and actually go into some detail about the Primarch's origins and the original intentions for the Legion etc


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

mrFickle wrote:

 harlokin wrote:
Alpha Legion are really intersting, but all the "aha, just as we planned" in response to every defeat/setback is particularly tiresome.

Yeah that would be boring and I don’t like it when people suggest the same about the emperor. But there no reason AL can’t be working their own angle over the long term.

I enjoy the idea that they've been working so many differant angles for so long they've basicly forgotten what their original angle was. the classic case of the under cover guy who becomes what he's pretending to be.

That's how I see it. Especially the princes and possessed warbands are way too far gone by now to even care what Alpharius and Omegon have wanted, or at the very least have an extremely twisted and deviated version that the primarchs would not recognize at all.

Sons of the Hydra reflects really well the contrast between the loyal troops and the chaos troops, and once again emphasises the loyalty to the legion above all
As the protagonists are made up of a definite loyalist alpha legionnaire, as well as troops from other warbands including a Howling Griffons (ultramarine successor) working under the banner of an AL Daemon Prince


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing to mention as well is that the AL have pure primarch gene-strain also, that they intercepted from the Raven Guard. And they've already been able to use it to create bigger and better astartes, that are almost like mini primarchs.
It's possible that with that data and the ability to psychically transfer minds, that they could create an endless amount of "vessels" to store their minds in whenever one is killed

Athurion wrote:
Sons of the Hydra reflects really well the contrast between the loyal troops and the chaos troops, and once again emphasises the loyalty to the legion above all
As the protagonists are made up of a definite loyalist alpha legionnaire, as well as troops from other warbands including a Howling Griffons (ultramarine successor) working under the banner of an AL Daemon Prince


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing to mention as well is that the AL have pure primarch gene-strain also, that they intercepted from the Raven Guard. And they've already been able to use it to create bigger and better astartes, that are almost like mini primarchs.
It's possible that with that data and the ability to psychically transfer minds, that they could create an endless amount of "vessels" to store their minds in whenever one is killed

I've just started reading Shroud of Night and it's pretty good so far. I also want to read Sons of the Hydra as well. I too have always felt that the AL generally puts loyalty to the legion above all else. That being said, it would be difficult a possessed to maintain that full loyalty. A legionnaire greater possessed of Khorne, for example, would most likely be under the control of a herald who would strictly be interested in serving the will of Khorne and would probably not care at all for the legion, only as much to further Khorne's goals. Guys like Argel Tal, where the human is the dominant partner, I think are the exception when it comes to possessed, not the rule. A prince is even more a slave to the gods, as it is made purely of warp material and must do their will all the time. One devoted to Chaos Undivided might have a little more leeway, but if there was any conflict between the desires of legion and those of Chaos, Chaos would always win. Moreover, as has been seen with the traitor primarchs, the longer they stayed daemons, the less human in nature they became. Angron, for example, was always incredibly violent, but after he was transformed, he had to hunt always because that was just what he had become. An AL prince of Tzeentch, for example, might end of becoming some ball of feathers and tentacles that constantly spouts riddles and which doesn't care about the materium anymore.

I did not know that about pure strain AL, which is definitely something that could help them stay truer to their original selves. Also, it might be possible to transfer Alpharius' consciousness in a way that bypasses some of the more corrupted Marines.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

Athurion wrote:
Sons of the Hydra reflects really well the contrast between the loyal troops and the chaos troops, and once again emphasises the loyalty to the legion above all
As the protagonists are made up of a definite loyalist alpha legionnaire, as well as troops from other warbands including a Howling Griffons (ultramarine successor) working under the banner of an AL Daemon Prince


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing to mention as well is that the AL have pure primarch gene-strain also, that they intercepted from the Raven Guard. And they've already been able to use it to create bigger and better astartes, that are almost like mini primarchs.
It's possible that with that data and the ability to psychically transfer minds, that they could create an endless amount of "vessels" to store their minds in whenever one is killed

I've just started reading Shroud of Night and it's pretty good so far. I also want to read Sons of the Hydra as well. I too have always felt that the AL generally puts loyalty to the legion above all else. That being said, it would be difficult a possessed to maintain that full loyalty. A legionnaire greater possessed of Khorne, for example, would most likely be under the control of a herald who would strictly be interested in serving the will of Khorne and would probably not care at all for the legion, only as much to further Khorne's goals. Guys like Argel Tal, where the human is the dominant partner, I think are the exception when it comes to possessed, not the rule. A prince is even more a slave to the gods, as it is made purely of warp material and must do their will all the time. One devoted to Chaos Undivided might have a little more leeway, but if there was any conflict between the desires of legion and those of Chaos, Chaos would always win. Moreover, as has been seen with the traitor primarchs, the longer they stayed daemons, the less human in nature they became. Angron, for example, was always incredibly violent, but after he was transformed, he had to hunt always because that was just what he had become. An AL prince of Tzeentch, for example, might end of becoming some ball of feathers and tentacles that constantly spouts riddles and which doesn't care about the materium anymore.

I did not know that about pure strain AL, which is definitely something that could help them stay truer to their original selves. Also, it might be possible to transfer Alpharius' consciousness in a way that bypasses some of the more corrupted Marines.

Shroud of Night was great in just seeing a perspective of the AL that don't actually have all the info but make do with what they can, and seeing the different levels of corruption amongst them and how their leader deals with that

mrFickle wrote:
I think the cabal showed the Alpharius and Omegon 2 outcomes and they chose a third.

1 option was defeat Horus and have the stagnation of humanity the other help Horus win and he will destroy humanity and chaos in the process

I've always felt that option was an Eldar scheme. Chaos doesnt entirely depend upon humanity. Humanity is an important part of Chaos to be sure, but the Eye of Terror was born entirely from the Eldar. Heck, the Slann brought chaos in to this galaxy. "Destroy humanity-save the universe " was a scheme crafted by the Eldar and their cronies. And a bad one at that.

I think he knew that was BS, and it was proven when he double crossed the cabal.

Here's my crackpot theory to add to the mix: it doesn't matter if Alpharius is dead because he never was the AL's primarch. Omegon is the primarch. Alpharius is a decoy: a random legionnaire whose job is to act as a figurehead while the real boss is pulling his strings from the shadows. That's why it's so easy for anyone to pretend they're Alpharius. They might as well be.

 Tiennos wrote:
Here's my crackpot theory to add to the mix: it doesn't matter if Alpharius is dead because he never was the AL's primarch. Omegon is the primarch. Alpharius is a decoy: a random legionnaire whose job is to act as a figurehead while the real boss is pulling his strings from the shadows. That's why it's so easy for anyone to pretend they're Alpharius. They might as well be.

Spoken like a true AL operative

 Red Marine wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
I think the cabal showed the Alpharius and Omegon 2 outcomes and they chose a third.

1 option was defeat Horus and have the stagnation of humanity the other help Horus win and he will destroy humanity and chaos in the process

I've always felt that option was an Eldar scheme. Chaos doesnt entirely depend upon humanity. Humanity is an important part of Chaos to be sure, but the Eye of Terror was born entirely from the Eldar. Heck, the Slann brought chaos in to this galaxy. "Destroy humanity-save the universe " was a scheme crafted by the Eldar and their cronies. And a bad one at that.

I think he knew that was BS, and it was proven when he double crossed the cabal.

I'm pretty sure Eldrad killed the Cabal to preserve Eldar lives but I could be wrong there.

The Necrons brought Chaos because they're idiots who thought war would be a uniting factor.