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Hello.

My friend taught us how to play 8th Edition using a 500-point format Matched Play between Death Guard and the Custodes. In it, he summoned a lot of daemons, which inevitably swamped and mired the Adeptus Custodes. He said the units with the CHARACTER keyword can summon units if they didn't move.

I agree with this. It's in the rules. This is where it gets problematic:

He says

You can summon any number of daemons so long as, in a single game, the points value of the summoned units do not total more than half of your army's points.

I cannot seem to find this rule in his rulebook. Page 214 only says

In matched play, you must reserve some of your points in order to deploy the reinforcements.

or something along that line.

So the way I understand it is, if you want to build a a 500-point army, then you don't build until 500 points. Build an army that totals less than 500 points. The difference is the points allotment you can use to summon daemons.

So for example, I've managed to, say, make a 446-point Death Guard army. The 54 points can be used to summon a 3-nurgling squad. (Each Nurgling unit is 18 points. X 3 = 54.) But that's it. Once you've summoned that Nurgling squad, your reinforcement points drops to zero and you can't summon anymore for the rest of the game.

In response he replies with:

Those Daemons being summoned via Daemonic Ritual are kinda special. They are not considered part of the list and detachments, therefore they are not part of your army's points cost

Am I right? Or is he right?

Your friend was very very wrong.

If you play open or narrative play, there is no limit to Daemon summoning. For this reason, open play games vs chaos are not really balanced at all. But open play is not designed to be at all fair, that's basically the whole point.

If you play matched play, you have to hold back reinforcement points at the start of the game which are spent to summon Daemons. Basically the total points of the starting army and all Daemons summoned cannot exceed the agreed point limit.

There is no rule around half your point limit etc.

Your friend is correct in that they do not go into any detachment. But that's about it. You absolutely unequivocally must pay points for Daemons that are summoned in matched play games.

 Stux wrote:
Your friend was very very wrong.

If you play open or narrative play, there is no limit to Daemon summoning. For this reason, open play games vs chaos are not really balanced at all. But open play is not designed to be at all fair, that's basically the whole point.

If you play matched play, you have to hold back reinforcement points at the start of the game which are spent to summon Daemons. Basically the total points of the starting army and all Daemons summoned cannot exceed the agreed point limit.

There is no rule around half your point limit etc.

Your friend is correct in that they do not go into any detachment. But that's about it. You absolutely unequivocally must pay points for Daemons that are summoned in matched play games.

Thanks.

So this is correct?

So the way I understand it is, if you want to build a a 500-point army, then you don't build until 500 points. Build an army that totals less than 500 points. The difference is the points allotment you can use to summon daemons.

So for example, I've managed to, say, make a 446-point Death Guard army. The 54 points can be used to summon a 3-nurgling squad. (Each Nurgling unit is 18 points. X 3 = 54.) But that's it. Once you've summoned that Nurgling squad, your reinforcement points drops to zero and you can't summon anymore for the rest of the game.

If you have the Main Rulebook, the rules for Reinforcement Points are on page 214 (they even use summoning daemons as an example).

 Ghaz wrote:
If you have the Main Rulebook, the rules for Reinforcement Points are on page 214 (they even use summoning daemons as an example).

Yeah, before we left his house, we had a (friendly) debate about because I specifically memorized the page number. (It was also a popular song here in our country in 1995. )

page 214

is also on my original post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Going back to the topic,

This is correct right?

So the way I understand it is, if you want to build a a 500-point army, then you don't build until 500 points. Build an army that totals less than 500 points. The difference is the points allotment you can use to summon daemons.

So for example, I've managed to, say, make a 446-point Death Guard army. The 54 points can be used to summon a 3-nurgling squad. (Each Nurgling unit is 18 points. X 3 = 54.) But that's it. Once you've summoned that Nurgling squad, your reinforcement points drops to zero and you can't summon anymore for the rest of the game.

 PPPointyEars wrote:

Thanks.
So this is correct?

So the way I understand it is, if you want to build a a 500-point army, then you don't build until 500 points. Build an army that totals less than 500 points. The difference is the points allotment you can use to summon daemons.

So for example, I've managed to, say, make a 446-point Death Guard army. The 54 points can be used to summon a 3-nurgling squad. (Each Nurgling unit is 18 points. X 3 = 54.) But that's it. Once you've summoned that Nurgling squad, your reinforcement points drops to zero and you can't summon anymore for the rest of the game.

Yes. In matched play you need to have spare points to spend on your summoned units. Once you spend them they are gone, even if the daemons are destroyed.

Yes.

Our local narrative campaign adapts the narrative daemon summoning rules to make them absolutely less insanely bonkers, so GW could have balanced it, but decided not to.

Thanks guys! Your replies helped immensely!

It's particularly irritating when you are using Biovores - my friends like to work on +20 reinforcement points (2 spore mines) per Biovore, reserved purely for misses.

Slayer6 wrote:
It's particularly irritating when you are using Biovores - my friends like to work on +20 reinforcement points (2 spore mines) per Biovore, reserved purely for misses.

He doesnt need to. Spore mines from biovores are free:

"If you are playing a matched game, the creation of these units by another unit is free, and the unit's points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points"

Slayer6 wrote:
It's particularly irritating when you are using Biovores - my friends like to work on +20 reinforcement points (2 spore mines) per Biovore, reserved purely for misses.

Spore Mines don't need reinforcement points.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer6 wrote:
It's particularly irritating when you are using Biovores - my friends like to work on +20 reinforcement points (2 spore mines) per Biovore, reserved purely for misses.

Spore Mines don't need reinforcement points.

They do from the Stratagem. But not from Biovores or Harpies.

That they cost points and CPs is kinda lousy considering their effect, but them's the breaks I suppose.