Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The rule states:


PENNANT OF THE FALLEN
This hallowed standard records the names of legendary Space Marines of the Chapter, mighty heroes who have fallen in glorious battle against the xenos and the heretic. The last stands of these warriors are mighty tales of defiance in the face of overwhelming odds. Warring under the shadow of such a proud legacy inspires battle-brothers to fight until their final breath.

Model with the Astartes Banner ability only. The banner grants the bearer the following additional ability:

Pennant of the Fallen: <CHAPTER> models that attack with one of their melee weapons as a result of this model’s Astartes Banner ability can make two attacks instead of one.

This is hurting my head.

Can someone give me an example of what would happen if a vanguard veteran was within this bubble and was equipped with two lightning claws? Their weapon profile states they get an extra attack for having two, so with shock assault that's 4 attacks. With the banner, would they get an extra 1, or two attacks? Would a Vanguard Vet equipped with dual claws get bumped up to five or six attacks?

I mean you get one extra attack per chain sword. With the banner, would that actually put a vet with two chainswords up to 7 attacks per model?

If that's the case then that is absolutely fething bananas. That would mean, if you had 5 vanguard veterans with lightning claws and a chaplain dreadnought, you'd get 30 S5 -3 2 Damage attacks. Which is ridonkulous in and of itself, but what if you pop a CP for honor the chapter, which lets them do it again? Assuming nothing dies, that's 60 attacks at S5 -3AP 2 damage. That can't be right. Right?

The ability states it is when a model attacks with one of its melee weapons as a result of astartes banner ability.

So, it doesn’t do anything during normal melee attacks. The Astartes banner ability lets a model attack with one melee attack or shooting attack when the model is killed. So the additional ability means it can use 2 attacks when the model is killed.

Aash wrote:
The ability states it is when a model attacks with one of its melee weapons as a result of astartes banner ability.

So, it doesn’t do anything during normal melee attacks. The Astartes banner ability lets a model attack with one melee attack or shooting attack when the model is killed. So the additional ability means it can use 2 attacks when the model is killed.

Ok, excellent, thankyou. For some reason I was interpreting that to mean it was a bubble/buff. The Pluralized 'models' was throwing me off.

Not that that 40 attacks (with honor the chapter) at S5 -3 2d isn't still ridiculous but that would have been beyond broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aash wrote:
The ability states it is when a model attacks with one of its melee weapons as a result of astartes banner ability.

So, it doesn’t do anything during normal melee attacks. The Astartes banner ability lets a model attack with one melee attack or shooting attack when the model is killed. So the additional ability means it can use 2 attacks when the model is killed.

The Ancient's rule states:

Use this Stratagem before the battle. Select one ANCIENT model from your army that is not a named character. Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of that model. In addition, that model gains the CHAPTER ANCIENT keyword and the following ability: ‘Chapter Banner: Friendly <CHAPTER> units benefit from this model’s Astartes Banner ability if they are within 9" of it instead of 6"’. You can only use this Stratagem once per battle and your army cannot include two CHAPTER ANCIENTS from the same Chapter.

So it is ostensibly a bubble. So basically that would mean in a situation where vanguard vets with claws were benefiting from that Aura, they would get to make half their attacks on death. So 2 attacks per dead model because they have 4 attacks. Is this correct or am I still not getting it?

Roberts84 wrote:
The Ancient's rule states:

Use this Stratagem before the battle. Select one ANCIENT model from your army that is not a named character. Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of that model. In addition, that model gains the CHAPTER ANCIENT keyword and the following ability: ‘Chapter Banner: Friendly <CHAPTER> units benefit from this model’s Astartes Banner ability if they are within 9" of it instead of 6"’. You can only use this Stratagem once per battle and your army cannot include two CHAPTER ANCIENTS from the same Chapter.

So it is ostensibly a bubble. So basically that would mean in a situation where vanguard vets with claws were benefiting from that Aura, they would get to make half their attacks on death. So 2 attacks per dead model because they have 4 attacks. Is this correct or am I still not getting it?

You are not getting it. The Astartes Banner of the ANCIENT has a rule that allows a model killed within a certain distance of it to either fire a ranged weapon or make a single attack with a melee weapon. This relic changes the single attack with a melee weapon into 2 attacks with a melee weapon. Whether model is a 1 Attack Tactical Marine or a 5 attack Captain, the effect of the Relic (and the Astartes Banner) are exactly the same in both cases.

 alextroy wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:
The Ancient's rule states:

Use this Stratagem before the battle. Select one ANCIENT model from your army that is not a named character. Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of that model. In addition, that model gains the CHAPTER ANCIENT keyword and the following ability: ‘Chapter Banner: Friendly <CHAPTER> units benefit from this model’s Astartes Banner ability if they are within 9" of it instead of 6"’. You can only use this Stratagem once per battle and your army cannot include two CHAPTER ANCIENTS from the same Chapter.

So it is ostensibly a bubble. So basically that would mean in a situation where vanguard vets with claws were benefiting from that Aura, they would get to make half their attacks on death. So 2 attacks per dead model because they have 4 attacks. Is this correct or am I still not getting it?

You are not getting it. The Astartes Banner of the ANCIENT has a rule that allows a model killed within a certain distance of it to either fire a ranged weapon or make a single attack with a melee weapon. This relic changes the single attack with a melee weapon into 2 attacks with a melee weapon. Whether model is a 1 Attack Tactical Marine or a 5 attack Captain, the effect of the Relic (and the Astartes Banner) are exactly the same in both cases.

Ok, I think I'm getting there. At least I hope so. For example, if a dreadnought benefitting from the Aura died in combat, and had one attack with SX2 combat weapon, it would get 2 attacks with that same weapon as a result of the Aura?

Yes. Note that the Attack characteristic of the model is irrelevant in regards to the Astartes Banner and the Pennant. If a model is attacking with a melee when they die based on the Banner, they get 1 attack which is upgraded to 2 attacks by the Pennant.

 alextroy wrote:
Yes. Note that the Attack characteristic of the model is irrelevant in regards to the Astartes Banner and the Pennant. If a model is attacking with a melee when they die based on the Banner, they get 1 attack which is upgraded to 2 attacks by the Pennant.

Ok, thanks. After clarification I think there's better banner options for what I'm building, most notably the one that gives everything in the Aura a BS and WS of 2+.

You think 30 S5 D2 attacks is bannanas? For serious? Allow me to introduce you to my squad of 6 Merry men, They may look like Custodes Wardens, but when back up with an appropriate flag, they get 30 attacks for S8 ap2 D3 damage. If one of them dies, they still get 30 attacks. If 2 of them die, they get 28 attacks.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You think 30 S5 D2 attacks is bannanas? For serious? Allow me to introduce you to my squad of 6 Merry men, They may look like Custodes Wardens, but when back up with an appropriate flag, they get 30 attacks for S8 ap2 D3 damage. If one of them dies, they still get 30 attacks. If 2 of them die, they get 28 attacks.

Well yeah, but they're expensive. They're like 50 plus points per model at least, right? So they're gonna cost around 300 points for six, and for around that value I could take a leviathan dreadnought with dual storm cannons, or 9 eliminators with las fusils which is 9 S8 -3 Flat 3 damage shots ( which is way better than D3) that can be set up 9 inches away from enemies anywhere and are +2 to saving throws straight out the gate. That's before any buffs at all. As RG they're horrific and will be -3 to hit, and are probably going to hose half the wardens off the board within I turn of shooting before they can even do anything TBH.

Don't get me wrong Wardens are absolute beasts but I don't think they're going to make their points back against shooty armies at least.

What I'm talking about is 5 veterans with a points cost of around 125 points. They're nowhere near as tanky or even as dangerous, but they're still incredible value for the points.

If cost in an issue, wouldn't Khorn Zerkers take the top spot? They pump out stupid ammounts of S5 attacks with bloodlust and DTTFE? or Slightly less with S6.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If cost in an issue, wouldn't Khorn Zerkers take the top spot? They pump out stupid ammounts of S5 attacks with bloodlust and DTTFE? or Slightly less with S6.

Almost definitely...they are absurdly cheap for what you get. 15 points per model (one zerker with two swords) and they can do everything that a Vanguard Vet can do apart from take jump packs and do it twice as per their base rules because of blood for the blood God. And on top of that they are considered Troops, not elites. They are disgusting.

Roberts84 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If cost in an issue, wouldn't Khorn Zerkers take the top spot? They pump out stupid ammounts of S5 attacks with bloodlust and DTTFE? or Slightly less with S6.

Almost definitely...they are absurdly cheap for what you get. 15 points per model (one zerker with two swords) and they can do everything that a Vanguard Vet can do apart from take jump packs and do it twice as per their base rules because of blood for the blood God. And on top of that they are considered Troops, not elites. They are disgusting.

They can't take two swords.
Jump packs are incredibly valuable for a melee unit to avoid getting bogged down on a screen, instead of leaping past to fight the good stuff.
Troops only in a World Eaters army, which means you either get no legion bonus (because you mixed legions) or have a crappy Legion Trait and no psykers in that detachment.

They're good-but don't lie to make them seem better.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Roberts84 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If cost in an issue, wouldn't Khorn Zerkers take the top spot? They pump out stupid ammounts of S5 attacks with bloodlust and DTTFE? or Slightly less with S6.

Almost definitely...they are absurdly cheap for what you get. 15 points per model (one zerker with two swords) and they can do everything that a Vanguard Vet can do apart from take jump packs and do it twice as per their base rules because of blood for the blood God. And on top of that they are considered Troops, not elites. They are disgusting.

They can't take two swords.
Jump packs are incredibly valuable for a melee unit to avoid getting bogged down on a screen, instead of leaping past to fight the good stuff.
Troops only in a World Eaters army, which means you either get no legion bonus (because you mixed legions) or have a crappy Legion Trait and no psykers in that detachment.

They're good-but don't lie to make them seem better.

LOL Ok. I wasn't lying Bud, I was just wrong.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If cost in an issue, wouldn't Khorn Zerkers take the top spot? They pump out stupid ammounts of S5 attacks with bloodlust and DTTFE? or Slightly less with S6.

arco flagelants. 10 for 130 for 90 S5 -1 attacks hitting on 4+ rerolling. And if enemy survives and doesn't kill them you can fight again!

Yes, but if we start buying sisters and 9th drops, we'll all be crying.