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2020/03/11 05:07:22
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The Emperor is a perpetual; he can't really die. Why didn't he simply allow himself to die when he was critically wounded by Horus? Why did he not only allow himself, but order to be hooked up to the Golden Throne and be turned into a kind ongoing Hodor Zombie?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 05:08:05
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2020/03/11 05:09:22
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Watch the movie "Dogma".
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Of all the races of the universe the Squats have the longest memories and the shortest tempers. They are uncouth, unpredictably violent, and frequently drunk. Overall, I'm glad they're on our side!
Office of Naval Intelligence Research discovers 3 out of 4 sailors make up 75% of U.S. Navy.
"Madness is like gravity... All you need is a little push."
:Nilla Marines: 2500
:Marine "Scouts": 2500 (Systemically Quarantined, Unsupported, Abhuman, Truncated Soldiers)
"On one side of me stand my Homeworld, Stronghold and Brotherhood; On the other, my ancestors. I cannot behave otherwise than honorably."
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2020/03/11 05:10:40
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Roberts84 wrote:The Emperor is a perpetual; he can't really die. Why didn't he simply allow himself to die when he was critically wounded by Horus? Why did he not only allow himself, but order to be hooked up to the Golden Throne and be turned into a kind ongoing Hodor Zombie?
Because the original story did not have perpetuals in it.
This is what happens when you allow people to add stupid ideas to the setting because it's cool....
The emperor was immortal, but not in the wolverine regrowing from atoms crap we've got now.
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2020/03/11 05:34:26
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Gargantuan Gargant
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The webway project tear left by Magnus mainly. We're not sure how long it would take for the Emperor to regenerate from wounds that severe given it was both physical and psychic damage he suffered, and on a completely different scale as well since the chaos gods effectively used Horus as a meat suit. So by the time he would have recovered it's possible that Malcador would have died before the Emperor could have replaced him in time, which would have triggered his dead man's switch that would have nuked terra. So it's more or less making the most of a bad situation and hooking him up immediately so that at the very least the capital of humanity stays intact.
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2020/03/11 09:06:05
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Grimskul wrote:The webway project tear left by Magnus mainly. We're not sure how long it would take for the Emperor to regenerate from wounds that severe given it was both physical and psychic damage he suffered, and on a completely different scale as well since the chaos gods effectively used Horus as a meat suit. So by the time he would have recovered it's possible that Malcador would have died before the Emperor could have replaced him in time, which would have triggered his dead man's switch that would have nuked terra. So it's more or less making the most of a bad situation and hooking him up immediately so that at the very least the capital of humanity stays intact.
OK, but why can't he just...you know, do it now? Malcador was an immensely powerful psyker but I don't think he was more or less powerful than someone like Mephiston. And what is the point of all those sacrificed psykers?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/11 09:46:17
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2020/03/11 10:35:44
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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IOW it would cause the universe to divide by zero.
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Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. |
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2020/03/11 10:44:21
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Because we do not know if the Emperor is a perpetual as it has been left vague and likely on purpose, we do not even know if he is immortal as he may just be extremely long lived like Malcador.
Also if the Emperor dies the golden throne loses its battery and the entrance to the Terran webway opens up flooding the world with daemons which will possibly activate Vulkans "scorched earth" WMD if it still exists in 40k, possibly killing chaos but absolutely killing humanity.
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2020/03/11 12:13:54
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential
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Formosa wrote:Also if the Emperor dies the golden throne loses its battery and the entrance to the Terran webway opens up flooding the world with daemons which will possibly activate Vulkans "scorched earth" WMD if it still exists in 40k, possibly killing chaos but absolutely killing humanity.
The Emperor remains on the throne to:
Hold the gate closed
Direct the Astronomicon somehow
In his near death state, project his spirit into the warp and do miracle things
The Inquisition at its formation made a decision to not bring him back as the Imperium was recovering from the Heresy, was already worshipping him as an enthroned god and bringing him back could cause another schism.
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2020/03/11 13:14:10
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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=Angel= wrote: Formosa wrote:Also if the Emperor dies the golden throne loses its battery and the entrance to the Terran webway opens up flooding the world with daemons which will possibly activate Vulkans "scorched earth" WMD if it still exists in 40k, possibly killing chaos but absolutely killing humanity.
The Emperor remains on the throne to:
Hold the gate closed
Direct the Astronomicon somehow
In his near death state, project his spirit into the warp and do miracle things
The Inquisition at its formation made a decision to not bring him back as the Imperium was recovering from the Heresy, was already worshipping him as an enthroned god and bringing him back could cause another schism.
You are talking about the conversation in the start of the Inquisitor rulebook, I am not sure that is even canon anymore and even more doubtful that its even true given who is involved in that conversation.
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2020/03/11 13:16:26
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Battlefield Tourist
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Because the people who write the background are bad at it sometimes?
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2020/03/11 16:16:49
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Roberts84 wrote: Grimskul wrote:The webway project tear left by Magnus mainly. We're not sure how long it would take for the Emperor to regenerate from wounds that severe given it was both physical and psychic damage he suffered, and on a completely different scale as well since the chaos gods effectively used Horus as a meat suit. So by the time he would have recovered it's possible that Malcador would have died before the Emperor could have replaced him in time, which would have triggered his dead man's switch that would have nuked terra. So it's more or less making the most of a bad situation and hooking him up immediately so that at the very least the capital of humanity stays intact.
OK, but why can't he just...you know, do it now? Malcador was an immensely powerful psyker but I don't think he was more or less powerful than someone like Mephiston. And what is the point of all those sacrificed psykers?
The golden throne is keeping him alive now and he can’t change that, he can’t move. So he has to wait for the throne to fail and eventually he will die.
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2020/03/11 16:32:20
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller
Watch Fortress Excalibris
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IIRC, Laurie Goulding once floated the idea that being interred in the Golden Throne wasn't the Emperor's order but Dorn's. Because Dorn was mad with grief and couldn't bear the prospect of losing his father. The Emperor might have known it was a terrible (and unnecessary) plan, but wasn't capable of making his wishes known.
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A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. |
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2020/03/11 16:41:14
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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Perpetuals can be permanently killed by large quantities of concentrated warp energy. If a fully chaos-empowered Horus isn't a large quantity of concentrated warp energy, I don't know what is.
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2020/03/11 18:08:41
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Gargantuan Gargant
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Roberts84 wrote: Grimskul wrote:The webway project tear left by Magnus mainly. We're not sure how long it would take for the Emperor to regenerate from wounds that severe given it was both physical and psychic damage he suffered, and on a completely different scale as well since the chaos gods effectively used Horus as a meat suit. So by the time he would have recovered it's possible that Malcador would have died before the Emperor could have replaced him in time, which would have triggered his dead man's switch that would have nuked terra. So it's more or less making the most of a bad situation and hooking him up immediately so that at the very least the capital of humanity stays intact.
OK, but why can't he just...you know, do it now? Malcador was an immensely powerful psyker but I don't think he was more or less powerful than someone like Mephiston. And what is the point of all those sacrificed psykers?
For better or for worse, the Emperor has already committed to the path he's taken. Over ten thousand years of worship and him holding chaos at bay have irrevocably changed him, and there are many theories as to whether the God-Emperor known to the masses and helping create Living Saints and other miracles is the same as the Emperor that once walked amongst humanity. Otherwise he would have told the Custodes or Guilliman himself when he reunited with his father to kill him. The other more glaring problem is that him being removed would still result in the same issue of the dead man's switch activating or daemons flooding into Terra. I doubt there are any living psykers right now that could do what he's been doing for so long (remember it's only gotten worse, given how many more psykers are needed to feed him now), and with the Great Rift, it would be the worst time to attempt such a gamble.
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2020/03/11 18:41:52
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Fixture of Dakka
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jareddm wrote:Perpetuals can be permanently killed by large quantities of concentrated warp energy. If a fully chaos-empowered Horus isn't a large quantity of concentrated warp energy, I don't know what is.
A Warp Storm. Psychic lightning. Many things that aren't mainly made of reality really.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2020/03/11 20:29:40
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot
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pm713 wrote:jareddm wrote:Perpetuals can be permanently killed by large quantities of concentrated warp energy. If a fully chaos-empowered Horus isn't a large quantity of concentrated warp energy, I don't know what is.
A Warp Storm. Psychic lightning. Many things that aren't mainly made of reality really.
Meant figuratively. But does that mean you don't think Horus would've been capable of killing the Emperor the same way Fulgurite kills perpetuals?
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2020/03/11 20:49:16
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Fixture of Dakka
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jareddm wrote:pm713 wrote:jareddm wrote:Perpetuals can be permanently killed by large quantities of concentrated warp energy. If a fully chaos-empowered Horus isn't a large quantity of concentrated warp energy, I don't know what is.
A Warp Storm. Psychic lightning. Many things that aren't mainly made of reality really.
Meant figuratively. But does that mean you don't think Horus would've been capable of killing the Emperor the same way Fulgurite kills perpetuals?
I try not to think about Perpetuals at all. They have the dubious achievement of being one of the dumbest things ever added to 40k.
But basically no. Horus himself couldn't permanently kill the Emperor, he can kill the Emperor physically and that would weaken him sufficiently that the Chaos Gods could have killed him permanently before he could reincarnate but the key part is Chaos doing the actual killing. Something they won't do anymore since the Emperor is all juiced up on worship.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2020/03/11 21:16:43
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Emperor can communicate directly, at least with Guilliman. He didn't ask him to pull the plug so there obviously IS a reason (whether or not the BL authors have figured out what it is yet). There are many different theories but they all fall into 2 categories.
1. Pulling the plug would make the situation worse (Emps would die for real, daemons flood terra, Vulkan's WMD etc).
2. The Emps staying put to achieve something (get enough psychic power to ascend, humanity becomes psychically mature and he is no longer needed).
Pretty much any theory you can think of falls into one of these 2 categories. Now since 40K is all about the GrimDarkTM, I assume that whatever the reason is, it will be in the first category.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/11 21:17:55
I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. |
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2020/03/11 21:24:51
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Fixture of Dakka
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What is Vulkans WMD? I really don't see how destroying Terra if the Throne gate opens achieves much of anything to justify it being built up. It's a mercy killing for the people there but it's not like the Imperium values that most of the time.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2020/03/12 15:10:54
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Isn’t one of the primarchs in the web way? So he could shut down the bit that connects to terra before the emperor dies
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2020/03/12 15:16:50
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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pm713 wrote:What is Vulkans WMD? I really don't see how destroying Terra if the Throne gate opens achieves much of anything to justify it being built up. It's a mercy killing for the people there but it's not like the Imperium values that most of the time.
The Talisman of Seven Hammers. If the throne ever fails, it detonates and destroys Terra, so that Chaos doesnt have a permanent portal to the throneworld. Automatically Appended Next Post: mrFickle wrote:Isn’t one of the primarchs in the web way? So he could shut down the bit that connects to terra before the emperor dies
Thats not how the webway works.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/12 15:17:01
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2020/03/12 16:28:22
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Fixture of Dakka
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That just seems pointless to me.
The Khan is in the Webway but that's a bit like saying he's somewhere in this quarter of the galaxy.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2020/03/14 00:01:05
Subject: Re:Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Stalwart Tribune
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Yeah, the eldar are probably the only ones who know how to rejigger the webway, especially the drukhari, since they live inside of it. But good luck getting them to cooperate.
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2020/03/14 00:09:50
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Because the perpetuals are colossally dumb and we all should forget them and pretend that we never heard of them.
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2020/03/14 08:00:58
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The other thing to remember is that each perpetual has its own set of rules. Vulkan's body physically regenerates. Alivia Sureka and John Grammaticus can both "respawn" at different locations from their physical death. Oll Persson just seems to go on and on like a duracell rabbit.
While he may have been immortal while he was properly alive, that does not necessarily mean that the Emperor can regenerate/resurrect/respawn in the same way, particularly after the injuries Horus infllicted.
If he could do so without flooding Terra with Daemons, I am pretty sure he would have asked Roboute to pull the plug.
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I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. |
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2020/03/14 15:43:37
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Why the perpetual hate? I think they're a cool idea.
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2020/03/14 16:13:32
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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2020/03/14 16:20:22
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Partly because literally unkillable characters is awful to read about and partly because it devalues some characters a lot. Most notably Ollanius Pius went from being just a random guardsmen with enough guts to try and shoot a Chaos boosted Primarch to an immortal who'd been working specifically towards that for ages which is much less impressive and does a worse job of symbolising the Guard.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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2020/03/14 16:22:57
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend
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Their immortality removes any sense of consequence or risk, and they feel totally incongruous with the rest of the setting.
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VAIROSEAN LIVES! |
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2020/03/14 17:20:18
Subject: Why didn't the Emperor simply die and reincarnate?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:Why the perpetual hate? I think they're a cool idea.
I'm glad you enjoy them. I'm indifferent, but I really am happy you find them appealing to you - don't let other people's opinions change your own here.
harlokin wrote:Their immortality removes any sense of consequence or risk, and they feel totally incongruous with the rest of the setting.
Yeah, it's not like anything else is immortal!
Except Necrons. And Daemons. And Tyranid consiousnesses (Swarmlord).
Immortality has already been a thing in 40k. Now, if the complaint was "I don't like existing characters being made retroactively immortal" or "there's too many immortal characters now", I'd understand, but it's not like immortality is something that's never cropped up.
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They/them
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