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According to the BG I've read, the eldar were created by the ancients, I.E. the slann, huge floating toads, basically.

So one thing I just dont get is how the eldar have gods? I mean I've never been an eldar player but I know they have gods like Khaine. The thing is if they were created by the ancients and know it, where do their gods come from

Just a little question that's always kinda been there, maybe someone here can explain it to me. Is it kind of like how the orks basically created gork and mork as manifestations of their collective mind's presence in the warp? Then again the orks liely have forgotten their origin as creations of the slann, you'd think the eldar would remember.

The distinction is that gods doesn’t mean maker.

There are 2 interpretations that I’m aware of with the flufff ( might be out of date and retconned though)

One us that the eldar gods are warp beings created by the psychic reflection of the eldar in the warp the same as the chaos gods are. The eldar are aware of this and just because something us a god doesn’t make it the creator of that race, again just like the chaos gods.

The other interpretation I’ve seen is that the eldar gods are fables/myths that are corrupted histories from the time of the Old Ones, and evening that the Eldar gods (khaine et al) were either Old ones themselves, or were also created by the old ones.

Also, IIRC, the space frogs were Slann who were one of many species who made up the Old Ones as opposed to the Old Ones being a specific species.

I thought it might be something like that. I wanted to check with an eldar player who was up on their mythos.

I always thought the slann were the ancients, i didn;t know they were a coalition of races.

Since when were the Old Ones not a single species? I thought they'd always been a single race just one with their name forgotten.

Plus the interpretations Aash states aren't mutually exclusive. The original "gods" could be old ones/old one weapons and over time their origin was lost and they were converted into the gods they became by the end.

Doesn't some lore suggest that the Eldar created their gods as psychic weapons or tools?

pm713 wrote:
Since when were the Old Ones not a single species? I thought they'd always been a single race just one with their name forgotten.

Plus the interpretations Aash states aren't mutually exclusive. The original "gods" could be old ones/old one weapons and over time their origin was lost and they were converted into the gods they became by the end.

Yeah, the two interpretations could both be true.

As for the Old Ones being more than one species, I don't have a source, just my vague rememberings, which might be wrong. I read most of my lore during 2nd ed when I got into the hobby, and some RT era books. I'm not too familiar with how the lore has developed more recently other than the odd bit here and there I've picked up reading the occasional BL book and getting back into the hobby with 8th ed.

A more definitive answer would be welcome from someone more familiar with the lore!!

In 40K everyone makes their own gods as their beliefs and emotions psychically coalesce in the Inmaterium.

Historically the gods are part of the warp and all gods, chaos and otherwise, are part of the same thing.

They're all like sub storms of the great 4, overlapping etc.

The reason khaine was shattered is because khorne fought slannesh for him, as he was part of the blood god. But the non khorne aspects connecting him to slannesh were too strong.


This is why chaos is totally universal, any alien generates a warp reflection unique to their psyche. The big 4 are the base concepts of all emotion and each species has its own unique flavour.

We've lost a lot of the subtlety of chaos where they were more than just Satan, khorne was about martial honour as well. Khaine being connect to him makes sense in that context.

They're basically the tulpa of a highly psychic race. Like, you know, the other one they made...

 kingheff wrote:
Doesn't some lore suggest that the Eldar created their gods as psychic weapons or tools?

This is the most correct. Unlike everyone else the Eldar understood the warp and thus tailored their gods to fit the roles they needed for them. While no doubt they created some by accident...the main ones were made by design.

Rebel4ever85 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Doesn't some lore suggest that the Eldar created their gods as psychic weapons or tools?

This is the most correct. Unlike everyone else the Eldar understood the warp and thus tailored their gods to fit the roles they needed for them. While no doubt they created some by accident...the main ones were made by design.

What actually suggests this?

Because it's narratively convenient for them to have gods.

From what I understand, the Old Ones, beinf unable to deal with the C'tan on their own, created the eldars so that in turn they would use their psychic powers to create their gods who would then battle with the C'tan. From what I've read, these gods were warp beings like the chaos gods, but were also able to manifest in the materium. During Rise of the Ynnari: Wild Rider, Nuadhu Fireheart, due to some type of ancestral memory, has flashbacks to fighting alongside constructs larger than titans in the original War in Heaven. These titanic figures could very well be the physical manifestation of the Eldar gods given form in the physical plane.

Chaos Gods can also manifest in the material plane. Just like Khaine manifests through an avatar, the Chaos Gods manifest through Greater Demons and lesser demons - which are at one moment individuals made from their own god.

The Chaos Realm has more than the big four Chaos Gods. Gorkamorka is also there and often stated to be more powerful, however like orks haphazard and just in for a good fight. The Big Four also seem somewhat unique in that instead of remaining as a single entity, they seem to branch off to create demons of their own; thus creating legions and armies; whilst gods like Gorkamorka remain as a single/duel entity rather than a huge army in their own right.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
In 40K everyone makes their own gods as their beliefs and emotions psychically coalesce in the Inmaterium.

This. The war in heaven between old ones and necrontyr was not just thousands but millions of years ago, and the eldar were pretty much the dominant species for most of the interval. Thats a long time feeding the warp with emotional fuel.

Certainly there is cross-over. The blackstone fortresses were made by 'vaul', and are anti-c'tan warp weapons, so the original vaul was probably an actual old one. That doesn't preclude a 'god' with a similar identity evolving from the racial memory.

Remember we don't know how 'civilised' the eldar were during the war. If they were essentially tribal psychic cannon-fodder rather than an advanced civilisation in and of their own right (like the Stargate universe's Jaffa), they may have seen the old ones as near-mythical gods.

locarno24 wrote:

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:
In 40K everyone makes their own gods as their beliefs and emotions psychically coalesce in the Inmaterium.

This. The war in heaven between old ones and necrontyr was not just thousands but millions of years ago, and the eldar were pretty much the dominant species for most of the interval. .

Well. Not dominant. One of several species used by the old ones as weapons. Its just, elfs being elfs, their records discount everyone else, and their records are the ones that survived vaguely intact.
They (and the orks) became fairly dominant in the wreckage of the galaxy that followed the war in heaven, but they definitely weren't during the war.

I might be the only one that kindve likes a slann eternal.
Theyve watched forever. But all that fluffs been absorbed by crons. So whatever.

The eldar just vaguely remember their hero's.
Vaul. He made ef off weapons. But still ended up being captured.
There was the lady that fell to nurgle.
Apart from a few aspects of ghosts.
Its all gone myth.

Except for Da Orks.
We'll make a colour da warp.
Stupid pointys, Couldnt have gotten it done without the boys

What actually suggests this?

The Liber Chaotica says they did. It says they started off as living weapons and evolved.

"Without the wisdom and might of the First Ones I saw The Elder's warp-beings evolve from sentient weapons into living gods - the first true gods of the Immaterium."

There is likely better references than this, but this is the one i know.

I would assume they were lesser Warp beings, at least at some point. It's not really going against the fluff to assume there were warp beings that were not evil like the big four.

I imagine the Eldar Gods as being the psychic and warp equivalent of a low level human AI that becomes strong enough to "ascend" to the Internet and connected computer systems and become the technology version of a god (like in the Johnny Depp movie Transcendence). The Eldar living weapons/AI systems just did so into the warp instead. It's just that they eventually ran afoul of the Chaos Gods and fell to them.

There are a lot of unclear information about this. It is better perhaps that it stays that way, as a mysteri is far better then a booring reveal.

It does apear Eldars do have some understanding and sway in making gods as the Inaree death avatar has started to apear.

There has been some theories that the Eldar gods where actually C'tan that escaped imprisonment from the necrons. It explains quite a few things but it also doesn't make complete sense.

There's a Youtube called Luetin who has done a series called 'Dark Origins' (we're still waiting on the long coming part 3) but he directly delves into this question as well as others.

As slannesh is an eldar god, it's pretty clear that gods in 40k are formed the same way.

It's possible that powerful warp weapons engineered to fight were absorbed into a warp storm-god coalescing as the eldar's souls and emotions started flooding the warp.

But the metaphysics of emotions, souls and gods shows what they are and how they work.

So every eldar god was a warp entity that could have been a reflection of the chaos gods, or the way the eldar emote those base 4 emotions.


Remembering that chaos is the primordial force, the emotional expression of all life. The universal Anger, Hope, Fear and Lust. Every sentient organism expresses a range of emotions, all flavoured differently.

They all have synonyms:

Anger/Rage
Hope/Drive
Fear/Despair
Lust/Pleasure

and it's less important to know exactly what they are than what they represent: the 'primordial' emotive force of life.

the atavistic heart of sentience. As sentience gets more complex, self referential, introspective and conceptual, it starts adding layers of abstraction and thought on top of those emotive drivers.

So the EXPRESSION of these emotions is different, but the primal underpinning does not.


So all gods are warp gods and all warp gods are chaos gods. All emotions go to the warp and all emotions power the gods found there. And all emotions are different aspects of the primal 4.

sometimes the cosmology is drawn as overlapping venn diagrams, with gods like Asurmen encompassing aspects of several other gods.

Khaine was mostly Khorne and some Slannesh, so when slannesh was born he and Khorne fought over possession of khaine.

the warp is not a neat place, everything bleeds into everything else.

But what it does do is follow a specific set of rules around emotions, souls, warp entities and power.

if you're interested in more deep dives into this stuff, Marijan von Staufer (who wrote the Liber Chaotica) used to frequent Warseer and we had lots of great discussions about the chaos gods and warhammer cosmology.

His handle was MvS.

I would still think, that especially since Eldar were described as having their own version of AI constructs, couple with their psychically active construction materials, that their gods were essentially "AI daemon princes" that took on different aspects based on what they were supposed to do before their ascension.

The theory is pretty in line with how Avatars are just remnant pieces of Khaine, that the Eldar have basically rigged and bastardized into working again with rituals and sacrifices.

It does depend on your interpretation of "god". It honestly cant be overstated enough. In these discussions defining gods, religion, worship, soul, miracles, and afterlife is of supreme importance.

I've never liked the idea that all gods live in the warp AND all gods are just the amalgam of your feelings. "All eldar happiness glues itself together, acquires sentience, then begins acting on behalf of its people/followers/creations/creators." It's the most backwards, self defeating bologna. I've always thought of the Warp as another dimension that lacks matter, but does have life. The life forms in the warp (in my mind) adopt a species in our world in a symbiotic relationship. Something like an alliance between nations.

Rebel4ever85 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Doesn't some lore suggest that the Eldar created their gods as psychic weapons or tools?

This is the most correct. Unlike everyone else the Eldar understood the warp and thus tailored their gods to fit the roles they needed for them. While no doubt they created some by accident...the main ones were made by design.

I remember more recent lore mostly saying this. The Eldar would be constantly reborn from the warp, were incredibly psychicly powerful as a race, and at one point also numerous. They were built/taught by the old ones to actively and consciously shape the warp.

So they built 'gods' in the warp to use as those weapons and tools, and also largely controlled the warp, keeping the then lesser gods at bay, channelling their emotions into their own gods, and shaping warp space and real space to their whims. Until they accidentally made Slaanesh.

Their own dark reflection ripped up the warp and real space, killed most of them, ate their souls, shattered their control of the warp, and then killed most of their existing gods. For a long time the only two Eldar gods not utterly destroyed were Kaine (who was broken into fragments -avatars- that live on in the mortal universe), and the laughing god of the harlequins who hid behind Kaine and fled into the webway to avoid Slaanesh.

I might be mixing and lore there, but in 40k all of the lore is true and none of it is true right?

Ok little outta date on my background but weren't the eldar created by the slann to be like a culture of art and beauty with aesthetics the slann liked.

Later when all hell broke loose they tried to get the eldar to fight for them and they tried, but weren't powerful enough so the slann created the ancient Krork as a pure warrior force, self sustaining and propagating with their squig biotech?

I may be wrong but ISTR that was how it was in one edition. If I'm wrong please let me know.


But I could swear I remember the eldar being created for artistic and aesthetic reasons, possibly as a successor to the slann. I may be wrong.

That sounds more like Fantasy to me. IIRC Eldar were made purely as a weapon race. They're the smart weapon to the krork punchy weapon. Or the mind in mind over matter.

The legends around the war in heaven that came out around the time of the 3rd ed necron codex allude to a variety of races created by the old ones as weapons to fight the c'tan - the c'tan specifically as the necrons couldn't match the old ones oriignally.

As c'tan are very vulnerable to warp energy, the eldar as psychic guns makes sense.

I thought the blackstone fortresses were the c'tan killing weapons?