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I haven't read very many of the HH books, but Rogal Dorn and Guilliman seem very similar. Both are kind of stolid, competent administrators and strategists. I get that the Imperial Fists are supposed to be masters of siegecraft, but their Primarchs seem pretty similar

I admit I haven't read everything about the loyalist primarchs, but my impression is that Dorn was more dour and less flexible.

There's a shot story where Dorn is preparing for the Siege of Terra, moping around the statutes of the primarchs that turned traitor, when Sigismund decides it's time to tell him some bad news (I forget the specifics). Dorn ends up getting so mad he tells him "you're not my son".

I just couldn't see Guilliman doing the same. I could see him being still disavowing a marine, even a prominent one, for doing something bad enough, but it would be with an air of disappointment rather than anger.

Eh, there's a decent amount of differences.

Dorn is very much a servant. He lacks a lot of personal ambition, and is nearly entirely dedicated to service of the Emperor. He's incredibly stubborn, incredibly morally inflexible, and a solid administrator.

Guilliman, on the other hand, is an empire builder. He's still loyal to the Emperor, even more so than many of the other Loyalists, but he's got that personal ambitious streak that had him building the best sub-empire of all the other Primarchs. Dorn may have been an excellent military administrator, but Guilliman was both a better military organiser, and a civic planner too. Guilliman's grasp of both military and civic logistics was second to none, and this led to him being an expert statesman outside of conflict, which someone like Dorn just wasn't as skilled in. Guilliman is resolute in a different way to Dorn - in the way a crag jutting out of the ocean is different to a sheer cliff face.

TL;DR - Dorn was a stubborn, morally indefatigable master of war. Guilliman is a pragmatic, ambitious master of logistics in both peace and war. Think of the comparison between a modern military general and a Roman consul.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ScarletRose wrote:
I admit I haven't read everything about the loyalist primarchs, but my impression is that Dorn was more dour and less flexible.

Dorn definitely has moments of humour (his first HH appearance has him making a joke at Sigismund's expense), but he goes from 0-100 very quickly. He's quite emotionally unstable, beneath the stony surface, and is genuinely angry frequently. Conversely, Guilliman seems to be a lot more emotionally put together, both in managing his feelings and expressing them, as well as being generally conversationable with anyone (he's more than capable of joking with and talking down a pack of Space Wolves who have explicitly said they're there to kill him if needed).

That's a pretty good summary, but don't forget the random masochism and self torture!

Dorn is Captain America.
Gulliman is Black Panther.

Superficially very the same; both Captain America and Black Panther have a "super soldier" vibe, both use vibranium, both are soldiers/warriors and leaders. Captain America, however, doesn't want to run things and is really just a good soldier that's most at home leading a team. Black Panther is a king that leads by example but ultimately is at his best leading his country.

Dorn and Gulliman are both really smart strategists, but Dorn is first and foremost a military officer, while Gulliman is a Commander-in-Chief.

I would also say that Dorn is much more of an idealist than Guilliman is, since he was someone who never lost faith in the Emperor's overall vision for the Imperium, whereas Guilliman was always more pragmatic with regards to the Imperium as a whole, especially now during his ressurection in the 41st millenium, where he has to deal with the fact that the Emperor may have actually become a God at this point and how ass-backwards the Imperium has become.

It is hard to tell whether Dorn or Guilliman was more of an idealist. We have had less fiction that gets inside Dorn's head and none post-Heresy. Guilliman have been a POV character in both DI and Plaugue Wars so we have spent plenty of time inside his head so it is not really a fair comparison. Guilliman is an idealist, he wants to make life better for humanity in general. He told Dante is was time to stop the tribes of Baal living as impoverished nomads just for the sake of tradition. Guilliman's faith in his father has been pretty much demolished but he still retains his faith in the vision of a better future for humanity (however hopeless it may be to actually achieve it). Ironically, the Emperor would probably approve of faith in his vision far more that faith in him.

We know a lot less about Dorn's mindset but the little post-heresy fiction there is paints him as a morose figure and it is not hard to see why. He crafted some impressive defenses in the Sol system but between Alpahrius's infiltration and Chaos sorcery, the traitors pretty much bypassed them, hastening their landing on Terra by several weeks.

Dorn was responsible for the fortification of the Palace but ultimately it fell to Perturabo. Even when the loyalists were reinforced by the White Scars and Blood Angels (who had not been on Terra when he started planning his defenses), it was not enough to hold back the tide of Traitors. 7 years of preparation and 2 additional Legions and Dorn still failed.

Then there was his personal failure to protect the Emperor on the Vengeful Spirit. Dorn regarded himself as the Emperor's Champion and Praetorian yet he was not at his side during the crucial battle. By the time he reached the bridge, the battle was over and the Emperor was mortally wounded.

Lastly there was his failure to avenge himself on the Iron Warriors. He led his legion into what turned out to be a trap and ultimately had to be rescued by Guilliman. The aftermath saw his Legion broken up into Chapters while Perturabo ascended to Daemonhood.

You could easily argue that none of these were Dorn's fault. At every turn he was undone by the powers of the warp, powers that he understood poorly and hence could not defend against. But Dorn was not a particularly forgiving person and I suspect he was even harder on himself than on those around him.

He failed to keep Horus away from terra. He failed to keep the traitors out of the Palace. He failed to reach the Emperor's side in time to protect him and he failed to take revenge on those responsible.

No wonder he was bitter and morose after the Heresy. He may not have lost his faith in the Emperor but I am pretty sure he had lost his faith in himself.

Huh? Failed to keep them out of the Palace? AFAIK, the White Scara defended a big airport, IF and BA defended the Palace, and held it long enough for Russ and Johnson anfmd their Legions to come close enough for Horus to feel forced to enter his gambit of letting the Emperor teleport onto his flagship.

If the Palace had already fallen, there's no need for Horus to expose himself, and, as has happened so often in the series, the narratuve falls flat on its face.

SirGunslinger wrote:
I haven't read very many of the HH books, but Rogal Dorn and Guilliman seem very similar. Both are kind of stolid, competent administrators and strategists. I get that the Imperial Fists are supposed to be masters of siegecraft, but their Primarchs seem pretty similar

Flexibility and political skill.

Guilliman far outstrips Dorn in those two areas.

 ScarletRose wrote:


There's a shot story where Dorn is preparing for the Siege of Terra, moping around the statutes of the primarchs that turned traitor, when Sigismund decides it's time to tell him some bad news (I forget the specifics). Dorn ends up getting so mad he tells him "you're not my son".

He doesn't tell him bad news he tells him he betrayed and lied to him.

Bran Dawri wrote:
Huh? Failed to keep them out of the Palace? AFAIK, the White Scara defended a big airport, IF and BA defended the Palace, and held it long enough for Russ and Johnson anfmd their Legions to come close enough for Horus to feel forced to enter his gambit of letting the Emperor teleport onto his flagship.

If the Palace had already fallen, there's no need for Horus to expose himself, and, as has happened so often in the series, the narratuve falls flat on its face.

The main walls had fallen and the enemy were at the Eternity Gate. The traitors had breached the Palace and only the inner Sanctum Imperialis remained. In terms of a medieval castle, the invaders had breached the walls and taken the baileys while the defenders were now trapped inside the keep. The White Scars had retaken one of the Spaceports, halving the traitors' supply lines to the Palace. If not for Sanguinius and the BAs, the Eternity Gate might have been taken before it could be sealed.

I am not bashing Dorn. Horus had marshalled overwhelming forces and also called on powers beyond Dorn's experience. However I am pretty sure that Dorn would have felt like he had failed.

Bran Dawri wrote:
held it long enough for Russ and Johnson anfmd their Legions to come close enough for Horus to feel forced to enter his gambit of letting the Emperor teleport onto his flagship.

Not to argue specifics, but in the current canon, isn't it the Ultramarines and Dark Angels coming to the relief, with the Wolves being battered into the ground at Trisolian and Yarant?

And again, we don't really know how the Siege ends in the books just yet.

I think they are fundementally different characters. Dorn could be best described as boringly stoic, while Guilliman is his polar opposite in being stoically boring.

I'll show myself out.

The big difference between the two isn't loyalties, it's being able to think outside the box and into the DEEP future. Dorn is a siegemaster he's more worried about tomorrow not 100 years from now. This trait has also passed onto their sons. Ultramarines are good at what they do because they can think outside the box and get things done, while the Imperial Fists are very much "Fortify this Position and wait."

The only other marines that were as good if not better then the Imperial Fists at what they do was the Death Guard and when they turned traitor the DG that remained loyal and lived went into the Ultramarines. So the Ultramarines don't just have their fathers geneseed and thoughts they have other primarchs as well.

Had the Emperor not gone to face Horus, could BA+IF+WS + Imperial Army have held long enough for Guilliman and Ultramarines to arrive to rescue the situation?

I always felt Dorn was more of a warrior and a military planner, but Guilliman was more of an administrator and policy developer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Had the Emperor not gone to face Horus, could BA+IF+WS + Imperial Army have held long enough for Guilliman and Ultramarines to arrive to rescue the situation?

I always thought the answer was no. That's why the Emperor went to face him in person. Or was it the other way around, Horus knew he needed to end it before they arrived, so he lowered his shields to bait them?

I think guilleman was more of a well rounded human being that any other primarch. He was more that just a fighting man, a warlord, etc.

He knew there was more to keeping a civilization going than war and conquest. I don't think he was less militarily adept than dorn, he was just more adept at other things.

Rahdok wrote:The only other marines that were as good if not better then the Imperial Fists at what they do was the Death Guard and when they turned traitor the DG that remained loyal and lived went into the Ultramarines. So the Ultramarines don't just have their fathers geneseed and thoughts they have other primarchs as well.

Do you meant the Iron Warriors?
And as for Dantioch's men, they didn't become Ultramarines, so much as they were covered up as Ultramarine successors. Similarly, there's no indication that their core geneseed was tranferred into the Ultramarines gene-pool proper.

 lifeafter wrote:
I always felt Dorn was more of a warrior and a military planner, but Guilliman was more of an administrator and policy developer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Had the Emperor not gone to face Horus, could BA+IF+WS + Imperial Army have held long enough for Guilliman and Ultramarines to arrive to rescue the situation?

I always thought the answer was no. That's why the Emperor went to face him in person. Or was it the other way around, Horus knew he needed to end it before they arrived, so he lowered his shields to bait them?

it was the other way around. Horus was fighting against two seperate clocks, the first was the arrival of Gulliman. which I'll note was the plan (the entire loyalsit stragety in the heresy was "hold out until Gulliman could arrive and break the seige)

the second, which we only now about now, was basicly imposed by chaos, it seems Horus' body could only hold the power he had for so long. I tend to suspect he was on the cusp of Apothesis where he eaither won and chaos would claim him as a deamon prince, lost and became a spawn, or would be killed.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Had the Emperor not gone to face Horus, could BA+IF+WS + Imperial Army have held long enough for Guilliman and Ultramarines to arrive to rescue the situation?

In the current fluff we don't know as the Siege series has not got that far yet. In the older fluff (where it was the DAs and SWs racing to the rescue) the answer is "yes". Had Horus not goaded the Emperor into a face-to-face confrontation, the siege would have failed.

Now the final siege began. Through great breaches in the outer walls more and more armaments and reinforcements were brought to bear. The Warmaster himself prepared to teleport down to the surface and supervise the destruction of his former lord. Then a daemon from the Warp whispered to him the words that he had dreaded. A loyalist fleet under Leman Russ and Lion El'Johnson bearing a fresh army of Space Wolves and Dark Angels was only hours away. It would take days to break Humanity's last citadel, even with Horus leading his troops. It seemed that time had run out for the Warmaster, that his gamble had failed.

Horus was first among the fallen, with the power of a god and the cunning of a daemon. He resolved to try one final desperate gambit. He could still kill the Emperor. He ordered all comm-net communications blocked so that the defenders would get no word from their rescuers and then he used his psychic powers to the full to prevent the Emperor becoming aware of this. Finally he dropped the shields of his command ship. It was an invitation and a personal challenge that he knew the Emperor could not resist. He was being offered a chance finally to smite the foe who had harried him for so long.

 Yarium wrote:
Dorn is Captain America.
Gulliman is Black Panther.

Superficially very the same; both Captain America and Black Panther have a "super soldier" vibe, both use vibranium, both are soldiers/warriors and leaders. Captain America, however, doesn't want to run things and is really just a good soldier that's most at home leading a team. Black Panther is a king that leads by example but ultimately is at his best leading his country.

Dorn and Gulliman are both really smart strategists, but Dorn is first and foremost a military officer, while Gulliman is a Commander-in-Chief.

This, 100% in terms of role/skill, but in terms of personality I would say Dorn is more Iron Man and Guilliman is more Captain America.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Dorn is Captain America.
Gulliman is Black Panther.

Superficially very the same; both Captain America and Black Panther have a "super soldier" vibe, both use vibranium, both are soldiers/warriors and leaders. Captain America, however, doesn't want to run things and is really just a good soldier that's most at home leading a team. Black Panther is a king that leads by example but ultimately is at his best leading his country.

Dorn and Gulliman are both really smart strategists, but Dorn is first and foremost a military officer, while Gulliman is a Commander-in-Chief.

This, 100% in terms of role/skill, but in terms of personality I would say Dorn is more Iron Man and Guilliman is more Captain America.

I'd absolutely disagree with Dorn being called Iron Man. Dorn was an incrediably inflexable stubbron individual he wasn't an arrogant narcisist, he just was.. inflexable. that... isn't really Iron man.

BrianDavion wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Dorn is Captain America.
Gulliman is Black Panther.

Superficially very the same; both Captain America and Black Panther have a "super soldier" vibe, both use vibranium, both are soldiers/warriors and leaders. Captain America, however, doesn't want to run things and is really just a good soldier that's most at home leading a team. Black Panther is a king that leads by example but ultimately is at his best leading his country.

Dorn and Gulliman are both really smart strategists, but Dorn is first and foremost a military officer, while Gulliman is a Commander-in-Chief.

This, 100% in terms of role/skill, but in terms of personality I would say Dorn is more Iron Man and Guilliman is more Captain America.

I'd absolutely disagree with Dorn being called Iron Man. Dorn was an incrediably inflexable stubbron individual he wasn't an arrogant narcisist, he just was.. inflexable. that... isn't really Iron man.

Dorn *IS* arrogant - he's usually referred to as the most arrogant of the Primarchs by the fanbase, and I believe Perturabo or one of the other Primarchs calls him arrogant in one of the books.

Tony isn't a narcissist (though he is arrogant), hes *extremely* stubborn and very inflexible (and referred to as such within the MCU films a number of times).

Dorn = Tony/Iron Man, not only in personality but they have somewhat similar character arcs too. Tony/Dorn are both considered senior/top tier level Avengers/Primarchs, and are largely seen as aloof loners. Whereas the other Avengers/(loyalist) Primarchs largely focus on taking the fight to the enemy in order to build a better world, Tony/Dorn spend a lot of the time behind the scenes preparing defenses in order to preserve the existing world order out of a devotion to an establishment/status quo that doesn't necessarily warrant that devotion - in Tony's case building tech to try to protect the world from harm, in Dorns case building walls (figurative and literal) to protect the Emperor (and by extension Earth). Those defenses prove prescient when gak eventually hits the fan, but inadequate to combat the threat at hand, that failure causes a lot of guilt and grief in Tony/Dorn, which drives a wedge between himself and others on the team, including Captain America/Guilliman with whom he feuds, before eventually coming to terms with him and ultimately sacrificing himself on the field of battle in an attempt to defeat Thanos/turn back Abaddons Black Crusade.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Had the Emperor not gone to face Horus, could BA+IF+WS + Imperial Army have held long enough for Guilliman and Ultramarines to arrive to rescue the situation?

I believe yes. Because the Traitors knew they needed to end the siege of Terra before the Ultramarines arrived. They knew they didn't have the numbers to pull it off because reinforcements from across the Imperium were coming.

At the same time, the defenders on Terra didn't know the Ultramarines and other allies were coming. They'd been cut off from all communications, so to their knowledge they were either alone or could be waiting for decades for help. Which puts the Emperor's gambit in proper context.

He didn't know if or when reinforcements were coming, so he decided to attempt an assassination of Horus and end it there. It was the only option he had given the information he knew.

If the Emperor had known the Ultramarines were coming, he probably would have just waited the siege out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Dorn is Captain America.
Gulliman is Black Panther.

Superficially very the same; both Captain America and Black Panther have a "super soldier" vibe, both use vibranium, both are soldiers/warriors and leaders. Captain America, however, doesn't want to run things and is really just a good soldier that's most at home leading a team. Black Panther is a king that leads by example but ultimately is at his best leading his country.

Dorn and Gulliman are both really smart strategists, but Dorn is first and foremost a military officer, while Gulliman is a Commander-in-Chief.

This, 100% in terms of role/skill, but in terms of personality I would say Dorn is more Iron Man and Guilliman is more Captain America.

I'd absolutely disagree with Dorn being called Iron Man. Dorn was an incrediably inflexable stubbron individual he wasn't an arrogant narcisist, he just was.. inflexable. that... isn't really Iron man.

Aye. I'd say its the opposite. Dorn is Captain America and Guilliman is Iron Man.

SirGunslinger wrote:
I haven't read very many of the HH books, but Rogal Dorn and Guilliman seem very similar. Both are kind of stolid, competent administrators and strategists. I get that the Imperial Fists are supposed to be masters of siegecraft, but their Primarchs seem pretty similar

Dorn is a mentally unstable fruit loop, Guilliman isn't.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

SirGunslinger wrote:
I haven't read very many of the HH books, but Rogal Dorn and Guilliman seem very similar. Both are kind of stolid, competent administrators and strategists. I get that the Imperial Fists are supposed to be masters of siegecraft, but their Primarchs seem pretty similar

Dorn is a mentally unstable fruit loop, Guilliman isn't.

How is Dorn mentally unstable?

I wouldn't call Dorn unstable. His problem is that he is utterly inflexible with a serious temper. When confronted with news of Horus's treachery, his first reaction is to nearly kill Nathaniel Garro for insulting his brother. He is the kind of person who keeps all his anger pent up until he can't hold it and he lashes out (Garro, Sigismund etc).

Guilliman on the other hand is more adaptable and flexible. He is also a lot better on the people skills front and is better at getting the best out of people. Guilliman's weakness is that being less impassive allows more room for self-doubt. This is particularly acute following his resurrection at the end of the 41st millennium. He really has no one left he can talk to on his own level. Malcador and his brothers are gone, his father is almost incommunicado. Probably the only being close to his own intellectual level is Bellisarius Cawl and Guilliman doesn't trust him enough to confide in him.

 Tyzarion_Kronius wrote:
Had the Emperor not gone to face Horus, could BA+IF+WS + Imperial Army have held long enough for Guilliman and Ultramarines to arrive to rescue the situation?

This is one of those occasions where the backstory has changed but the Famous Incident remains.

Famous Incident - Horus lowers his shields.

Originally, it's an inexplicable action at his moment of triumph. A psychic probe to watch the Emperor die 'live', a desire to confront the Emperor, or the last remnants of pre-Davin Horus himself desperately trying to stop all this.
Now it remains a desperate gambit, but against the clock of approaching reinforcements; rather than snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, it's arguably an attempt to do the opposite.
As for what will happen in the future? God knows.

 Karhedron wrote:
I wouldn't call Dorn unstable. His problem is that he is utterly inflexible with a serious temper. When confronted with news of Horus's treachery, his first reaction is to nearly kill Nathaniel Garro for insulting his brother. He is the kind of person who keeps all his anger pent up until he can't hold it and he lashes out (Garro, Sigismund etc).

That sounds like a textbook definition of unstable to me. Especially for a war leader, managing ones temper is a basic (perhaps the basic) life skill.
Otherwise you get baited into traps for no reason.

Pretty sure DA and SW being on the way to force Horus' gambit goes back as far as 3rd edition. Maybe even 2nd.

Because the HH writers don't like the SW, they've been replaced with the Ultramarines, but the basic structure stands.