Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I've been playing Dawn of War; Dark Crusade again recently, and I spotted that cover in DoW says it "causes morale to improve faster". This got me thinking - because it makes sense - whether this could be used in 40k.

My goals are to:

1: Introduce suppression mechanics which will serve to inflict morale damage instead of lethal damage, reducing lethality and increasing tactics.
2: make Cover a bit more detailed, but not overly complex or convuluted.

My thoughts:
Morale is a 3 stage process. Units are either:
In Action - no morale damage, they are fine
Suppressed - reduced capabiities
Broken - much reduced capabilities

The aim is to make being suppressed and broken equally as problematic for assault troops and shooting troops alike.

In Action is a no brainer - the units work as they normally would.
Suppressed - if a squad becomes suppressed, it cannot advance and cannot fire overwatch. (I think that this is a fair result for both combat and shooting units, without crippling them!).
Broken - if a squad is broken then it has gone to ground; it gains +1 to armour saves vs shooting, and cannot move or shoot, and suffers -1 to hit in close combat.

These will be easily implemented using a 2-sided token.

How Morale will Work:

Units will add up their wounds and suppression tokens (more on that shortly), and then compares this to a D6 + leadership. If the roll is lower than the wounds + tokens, the unit drops a morale level. Then suppression tokens are discarded.

At the start of their turn, a unit can attempt to rally. It rolls 2D6 and compares this to leadership - if the roll is lower than their leadership, then they rally, and gain a morale level.


The board is broken down into:
1: Open Ground
2: Difficult Terrain (loose rocks, swamp, anything flat but difficult)
3: Light Cover (trees, bushes, smallish boulders, ruins)
4: Heavy Cover (bunkers, trenches)

agree before a game what constitutes what. generally, the game board itself (barring inbuilt features) is considered open ground.

Difficult Terrain: -1" to movement, charging and advancing when you go through this terrain.
Light Cover: +1 to armour saves and +1 to leadership, also difficult terrain
Heavy cover: +1 to armour saves, and +2 to leadership, also difficult terrain

So units in cover will rally better than those in open ground.


Suppression:
Some weapons will gain the "Suppression" rule. These will be things like heavy bolters and their ilk, who currently have this "not very useful" niche and don't see much action.

Suppression: Each hit from a weapon with "suppression" inflicts one suppression token to the target.

So if 3 heavy weapon squads with heavy bolters shot at a unit, on average that's 4-5 suppression tokens - counting as 4-5 wounds - but probably very few casualties.

This might be wholly unbalanced - it's not been playtested or anything - but I wonder if using cover as a means to recover morale would be a good mechanic?

Cheers for reading!

The idea is pretty good, methinks.

Obviously needs finetuning and testing, but I think it's a good base to work from.

It’s not a bad concept at all. Is there a way to tweak the concept to not further encourage MSU? Those units tend to ignore moral for the most part. Also rather than have each weapon add a suppression token. It might be better to make the unit give one token so that cheap automatic weapons don’t lock an army down. Another option is to make suppression an alternate mode of firing for the weapon. Add a -1 to hit to the weapon but the target gets a suppression token for each weapon.

I like the high concept! A few thoughts:

 some bloke wrote:

Units will add up their wounds and suppression tokens (more on that shortly), and then compares this to a D6 + leadership. If the roll is lower than the wounds + tokens, the unit drops a morale level. Then suppression tokens are discarded.

At the start of their turn, a unit can attempt to rally. It rolls 2D6 and compares this to leadership - if the roll is lower than their leadership, then they rally, and gain a morale level.

Slightly confused on this. If I'm reading this right, my opponent shoots me on their turn causing me to become suppressed in my opponent's morale phase, but then I immediately have a chance to rally at the start of my own turn? If that's correct, it feels a little weird to have a chance to instantly undo the morale roll you just resolved. I guess it could also be weird to try to intentionally suppress yourself on your own turn so that you have +1 to saves on your opponent's turn.

The board is broken down into:
1: Open Ground
2: Difficult Terrain (loose rocks, swamp, anything flat but difficult)
3: Light Cover (trees, bushes, smallish boulders, ruins)
4: Heavy Cover (bunkers, trenches)

agree before a game what constitutes what. generally, the game board itself (barring inbuilt features) is considered open ground.

Difficult Terrain: -1" to movement, charging and advancing when you go through this terrain.
Light Cover: +1 to armour saves and +1 to leadership, also difficult terrain
Heavy cover: +1 to armour saves, and +2 to leadership, also difficult terrain

So units in cover will rally better than those in open ground.

I feel like it should be possible for terrain to provide cover without being Difficult Terrain. A fog bank or castle walls, for instance. Though maybe the latter is more of a barricade.

Suppression:
Some weapons will gain the "Suppression" rule. These will be things like heavy bolters and their ilk, who currently have this "not very useful" niche and don't see much action.

Suppression: Each hit from a weapon with "suppression" inflicts one suppression token to the target.

So if 3 heavy weapon squads with heavy bolters shot at a unit, on average that's 4-5 suppression tokens - counting as 4-5 wounds - but probably very few casualties.

We've discussed this in other threads. I'm concerned that this makes it too easy to stack up a bunch of suppression tokens and build a list around forcing key enemy units to go to ground. A heavy bolter marine will average 2 suppression tokens on his own, for instance. Also, unless I'm overlooking it, there doesn't seem to be anything preventing you from suppressing something like an imperial knight.

As a possible fix, what if a unit could only ever have a single suppression token, and that token did NOT contribute to the morale test? So morale tests would be the same d6 + casualties test that it is now, but it would only kick in when you bothered to shoot that unit with a suppression weapon? Alternatively, maybe you roll 1d6 for each suppression token and discard all but the highest? So if I hit a unit with 50 heavy bolter shots, they'd roll 50d6 + casualties, but they'd only take the highest d6 result. So extra suppression shots have a benefit but can't be used to guarantee that an enemy is suppressed.

And of course, I still like my own pet idea of suppressed units not benefitting from certain strats and abilities, but your pitch is a lot easier to implement.

 some bloke wrote:
My thoughts:
Morale is a 3 stage process. Units are either:
In Action - no morale damage, they are fine
Suppressed - reduced capabiities
Broken - much reduced capabilities

The aim is to make being suppressed and broken equally as problematic for assault troops and shooting troops alike.

In Action is a no brainer - the units work as they normally would.
Suppressed - if a squad becomes suppressed, it cannot advance and cannot fire overwatch. (I think that this is a fair result for both combat and shooting units, without crippling them!).
Broken - if a squad is broken then it has gone to ground; it gains +1 to armour saves vs shooting, and cannot move or shoot, and suffers -1 to hit in close combat.

These are in no way balanced in the effect on shooting versus assault units.

Suppressed - Has no impact on the average shooting unit. It moves and shoots as normal, just losing the option to advance. It is only in the off chance that it gets charged that it makes any difference, and that assumes the unit has decent overwatch at all. Really, this has such little effect I have to wonder why it should exist anyway. I would suggest something more impactful such as, "a unit that has been suppressed has a -1 Move, -1 to Hit with ranged attacks, and suffers a -1 on Advance and Charge Rolls.

Broken - You forgot to mention that the unit cannot charge. So while neither type of unit can move or shoot, assaulters can still charge. Also, this robs the player of any use of the unit, which is a bit much for failing a dice roll.

It's a simple yet good mechanic, however like previous post it just needs fine tuning.

I feel that The levels of morale should be more in lines of actuall supression and breaking. I feel splitting these into two cattegories

So the levels could be like so:

Morale:

At the beginning of the morale phase, roll a D6 and add any suppression tokens or casualties to this result and compare to your leadership:

If the result is below the unit's leadership then there is no effect, but if the result is greater than the unit's leadership that unit is suppressed, add a suppression counter and consult the table below to determine the effect on the unit.

0 - no changes
1 - Cannot advance,suffers a -1 on charge rolls and can only fire as though under the effects of overwatch.
2+ - Cannot move or shoot at all. Melee attacks only hit on an unmodified hit roll of a 6.

If the test is failed by more than double the original leadership of the unit, the unit suffers D3 + 1 suppression counters instead

The only reason i add more of a punishment for shooting with this is that this can actually be one of the few methods to actually balance the meta atm.

Another thing i would add is this, that all ranged weapons can use:

Suppressing fire - This weapon can be used to suppress the target, instead of dealing damage, every unsaved wound caused by this weapon inflicts one suppression token on the target instead.

This means that you can effectively make a "supressing barage" upon the enemy, allowing your melee focused units to have an effective way to advance up the table. This will also open the table for more tactics, since leadership would play a huge roll in the game with this

It’s an interesting idea, but I’m not sure I’m sold on the 2 stages of morale- suppressed/pinned and broken.

I’d like to have a a suppression type mechanic and a broken mechanic and to make morale meaningful in game, but I don’t think that a 2 step system with suppression being the precursor to broken rather the 2 bring independent.

I’ve always liked the idea that suppression was caused by volume of fire and breaking by actual casualties.

This could be easily implemented in a system similar to Apocalypse where hits are marked during the turn but saves are resolved at the end of the turn. Number of saves to roll would determine if the unit is suppressed in the following turn. Number of saves failed/casualties taken would be used to determine if the unit breaks.

This way single model units could be suppressed but not broken, adding more depth to the morale mechanics.

I’d be ok with auto death being caused if the unit breaks exactly the same as happens now provided that the suppression mechanism is good.

I’d suggest that if a unit is suppressed it can still move as normal (maybe counts as in cover if the unit doesn’t move? ) but has a penalty for shooting ( only fire assault weapons? To hit modifier when shooting? Not sure) and is unable to advance and/or charge. If charged it is unable to fire overwatch.

A unit can be suppressed and also lose models from morale (broken) or a unit could pass its suppression test and still fail the morale roll. It gives a lot more outcomes.

Whether specific weapons or give additional bonuses to suppression mechanics could be incorporated if required.


EDIT:
A simple to implement suppression mechanic might be for a unit that is suppressed to count as Advancing with the associated limitations- can’t advance twice, can’t charge, and can only fire assault weapons. I like the idea of counting as in cover if the unit doesn’t move though as it represents going to ground and being pinned in place. Suppression as a way to cancel overwatch would be cool too, not sure how to make that work with suppression being resolved at the end of the turn though.

 alextroy wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
My thoughts:
Morale is a 3 stage process. Units are either:
In Action - no morale damage, they are fine
Suppressed - reduced capabiities
Broken - much reduced capabilities

The aim is to make being suppressed and broken equally as problematic for assault troops and shooting troops alike.

In Action is a no brainer - the units work as they normally would.
Suppressed - if a squad becomes suppressed, it cannot advance and cannot fire overwatch. (I think that this is a fair result for both combat and shooting units, without crippling them!).
Broken - if a squad is broken then it has gone to ground; it gains +1 to armour saves vs shooting, and cannot move or shoot, and suffers -1 to hit in close combat.

These are in no way balanced in the effect on shooting versus assault units.

Suppressed - Has no impact on the average shooting unit. It moves and shoots as normal, just losing the option to advance. It is only in the off chance that it gets charged that it makes any difference, and that assumes the unit has decent overwatch at all. Really, this has such little effect I have to wonder why it should exist anyway. I would suggest something more impactful such as, "a unit that has been suppressed has a -1 Move, -1 to Hit with ranged attacks, and suffers a -1 on Advance and Charge Rolls.

Broken - You forgot to mention that the unit cannot charge. So while neither type of unit can move or shoot, assaulters can still charge. Also, this robs the player of any use of the unit, which is a bit much for failing a dice roll.

I agree. Shooting units should suffer at least as much as assault units from suppression. In real life suppressive fire is used to allow infantry to close with the enemy (not to punch them in the face, of course, but to set-up favourable fire lanes and "assaults"). So maybe a -1 to hit while suppressed, or maybe something similar to the old Epic rules where a suppressed unit loses one model's firing for each suppression counter on it, chosen by the owning player.

For preventing MSU from being even more favourable maybe you could have minimum sized units start with 1-2 suppression tokens already and never be able to remove them, so they almost always have a small chance of being suppressed.

Thankyou all for the replies, it's nice to see a lot of positive feedback!

So it sounds like there's definite support for a method of using suppression and morale in the game, and for linking it with the cover (which makes sense, you'll rally better if you're behind a wall than lying on your face in a field with laser fire bursting over you!)

I like the suggestion of units counting as having advanced if they are suppressed. It's a really simple way of punishing both assaulty and shooty armies equally(ish) using existing game mechanics. It also means that units which can bypass this (advance + charge, advance + shoot) can continue to have some advantage over regular units.

I also agree that the suppression markers could build up way too fast with massed firepower so there will have to be a way to temper it, without slowing the game down - that is to say, if you say for each weapon that hits, a unit with 4 heavy bolters will have to roll them separately.

Instead, I would suggest giving weapons a "suppressive fire" option, where it can only hit on 6's, may never reroll failed hits, and for each weapon which fires in this way, the unit takes one suppression token. It doesn't matter if they hit, only that they spray the area with bullets. Thus fast-rolling is preserved.

Snipers would inflict a suppression token on a 6 to hit (there are too many all-sniper squads out there who would auto-suppress anything they shoot).

Basically you could add suppression tokens and then add rules to inflict them to various weapons, in a manner which best suits the weapon. But one per hit would definitely grind the game to a halt!

Being able to recover at the start of your turn was an oversight - perhaps it should be switched to the end of your own turn. something like:

At the end of each players turn, any units which took casualties, have suppression tokens or are suppressed/broken must make a morale check.
If the check is failed, the unit loses one stage of morale (becoming suppressed/broken).
If the check is passed, the unit gains one stage of morale (losing suppressed/broken).
If a unit which is broken fails a morale check, then the unit loses a number of models equal to the amount the check was failed by (as per current rules).

I like the idea that suppression and breaking should be different things, but I fear it would add more time to a phase which few players really enjoy - and one extra thing to keep track of. I am also not a big fan of the current "models just disappear" approach to morale, I think it adds more lethality into an already far too lethal game. if you don't quite kill a unit, it's fine - luckily they are cowards, so you actually did kill them all. I dislike the fact that you can leave the remains of a unit because they will almost certainly run away at the end of the turn. I want more heroic survivors, pinned down but with some slim hopes of salvation.

I commented in the 9th ed post below the following:

Hellebore wrote:
Imo to make morale a distinct part of the game and not just an additional way of causing damage, it should have affects on positioning and Activation.

Morale should be about suppression etc.

It could have a range of actions that you either choose to inflict or roll for.

Ie

Pin: unit had half movement
Duck and Cover: target at -1 to BS
Disordered: the unit may only move away from enemy models in its next turn
Overwhelmed: -1 to WS

ETC

what this also does is gets away from how to deal with fleeing units in a game with so many that ignore it. Orks can still find it harder to move etc. Daemons can still be overwhelmed and so on. It also allows you to build army lists like marines around thier actual strengths, which is battlefield control rather than trying to make them more and more killy. It means Eldar armies can fight a strike and fade strategy and the game isn't about just murdering models

The rub is the best way to represent this. having a morale test at the end of the turn is already present and that's good because it can total up all the tokens for a single test.

But issues like MSU, or suppression weapon spam always come up in these conversations, due to the attempt at turning suppression into a kind of special attack.

IMO, suppression is what occurs due to being attacked in general, rather than by special weapons or weapon types (those weapons are BETTER at it, but not the sole cause).

the most basic and laborious way would be to record the total number of hits a unit has taken that round - not successful wound roles or failed saves, but hits. Because suppression is caused by being shot at, not by being killed (killed models would also be positive modifiers). you then test your Ld against the amount of shots you've been hit with and a failure means a level of suppression.

This is challenging because you could record 10+ hits on the unit and for every unit that's a lot to keep track of. You could instead step down to successful wound rolls, which would be fewer in number and more manageable. Or you could step down further and make it failed saves.

The simplest is to use casualties as you easily keep a record of those. You can then make certain weapons like sniper rifles count as additional casualties to reflect their effect.

So you could do something like:

If a unit takes 1 or more casualties this turn, take a suppression test.
Leadership score vs total casualties (not current casualties) you know the number of models a unit has lost because you know its starting value.

Suppression weapons count HITS as casualties, in addition to any casualties caused.

At the end of the round compare the unit's current casualty count to its leadership.

= to 4+
> 3+
< 5+
double 2+
1/2 6+

ie marines Ld 6 have lost 3 models and were hit by suppression weapons twice (+2) for a total of 5. They need a 3+ to ignore this.

Failure inflicts a level of suppression (whatever you choose this to be, but definitely around action rather than death)

another option, make a suppression table that you compare the roll to (just like armour value):

Roll to defend against suppresion:

1d6+Ld vs current casualty total+ modifiers

example suppression effects
> pass
fail by 1; suppressed (-1 to attacks)
fail by 3: gone to ground (-1 and can only move to cover further away from enemies)
fail by 5: broken (-2 must move to cover and can only target closest enemy units)

or something like that.

You can then apply the staged effect as well, so if you were already at stage 1 and fail by 1, you go to stage 2.

this means you can inflict higher levels of suppression in one round rather than being forced to wait multiple rounds.

What this means is that units will also become harder to recover from suppression the more casualties they've suffered, but that you can still suppress a unit with weapons that have that rule even if they didn't suffer a casualty this round. So you could shoot a sniper rifle at a unit, hit but not damage and that counts as casualty to inflict a test. If that unit had already suffered casualties then this single shot could be the last straw for them to break.



My main focus here is the structure of suppression rather than the specific penalties it inflicts. What Ld score you might balance this with or what specific penalties you inflict should come after you can create a relatively balanced structure to apply it to.


My thinking here is that suppression should be universal, even to daemons, nids and necrons. Because it's less about morale and more about battlefield manoeuvring. Imperial guard might run screaming to cover, marines might decide that the anti tank fire coming their way is concerning so they retreat in an orderly way. But they would still know that going to cover is sensible in their current situation. The more casualities they've taken the less effective they will be so conserving numbers is important, whether that's due to cowardice or strategy.