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Sorry for the big quote, but it's necessary for my train of logic

Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good, Page 64 wrote:<TEMPESTUS REGIMENT>
MILITARUM TEMPESTUS units in your army gain the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword. When you include a unit with the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword in your army, you must nominate which Tempestus Regiment it is from, and then replace all instances of the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen Tempestus Regiment. The <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword can only be replaced by one of the following:

• 54TH PSIAN JAKALS
• 32ND THETOID EAGLES
• 133RD LAMBDAN LIONS
• 43RD IOTAN DRAGONS
• 55TH KAPPIC EAGLES
• 9TH IOTAN GORGONNES

If your army contains any units with both the <REGIMENT> and <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keywords, you must choose a different keyword to replace each of those keywords on those units’ datasheets.

Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good, Page 64 wrote:REGIMENTAL DOCTRINES
If your army is Battle-forged, all <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> units in a MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine selected from those presented on the page opposite, so long as every unit in that Detachment (excluding the Advisors and Auxilla mentioned below) has the same <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword.

Codex: Space Marines, page 174 wrote:The Chapter Tactic gained depends upon the Chapter they are drawn from, as shown in the table opposite. For example, an Ultramarines unit with the Chapter Tactics ability gains the Codex Discipline tactic. If your Chapter does not have an associated Chapter Tactic, you must instead create a Successor Chapter Tactic for them, as described on page 176.

So, in short, my question is:

Does a detachment with the 32ND THETOID EAGLES (etc.) keyword have to take the "Predatory Strike" (etc.) detachment trait?

My line of reasoning is thus:

Take a MILITARUM TEMPESTUS detachment.

All units in that detachment gain the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword, as prescribed by the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> rule.

As per the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> rule, for each unit I "replace all instances of the <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword on that unit’s datasheet with the name of your chosen Tempestus Regiment."

Such replacements may only come from the list, I may not make my own custom keyword for it like I can for <REGIMENT>, so I select 32ND THETOID EAGLES

As per the Regimental Doctrines rule, "all <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> units in a MILITARUM TEMPESTUS Detachment gain a Regimental Doctrine selected from those presented on the page opposite, so long as every unit in that Detachment (excluding the Advisors and Auxilla mentioned below) has the same <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> keyword. "

The rule does not state that I must select the Regimental Doctrine associated with the keyword I chose, as the Space Marine rule does, it simply says I select a detachment trait.

Ergo, while I pick the 32ND THETOID EAGLES, I do not have to pick the Predatory Strike trait, I can pick any of the traits on the page, including the original Storm Troopers trait.

So, it seems the situation where your <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> choice affects Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems, but not your detachment trait. I think this is true due to the lack of any compulsion to do so as in the Space Marine codex, but that seems counter-intuitive.

Have I missed something obvious? If we assume you must take the "correct" trait, that means you cannot take the Storm Troopers doctrine, but the FAQ permits it, which may on the one hand suggest that you are locked into the trait of you keyword and this is a special snowflake FAQ to say otherwise, or it might be saying that you can select any trait including the Storm Troopers trait.

Being able to take any doctrine is the only way to take Stormtroopers, as Stormtroopers wasn’t added to the Tempestus Regiment list. So you can have the Lambdan Lions strat, relic, and warlord trait while also having access to Tempestus Drop Force and Field Commander, due to the Vigilus Defiant FAQ’s definition of a Militarum Tempestus detachment for the purpose of a Tempestus Drop Force Specialist Detachment.

Newp. Because the rules state "if you want to keep playing your stormtroopers as you DID, you can do so simply by" which is a very different piece of phrasing than "if you wqant stormtroopers but want to change the strat, relic, and trait they have available for a different regiment's." IE, if you do change those things, you are not playing them as you used to, so you have done more than a simple switchero. At least that is how I believe it to be. There is a more subtle point, for example, look at the jakal's warlord trait, it specifically only applies to jakals, and etc. Only the iotan gorgonnes anti-psyker warlord ISNT specifically about a unit of the same kind, and that kind is replaced in the act of picking stormtrooper.

Dukeofstuff wrote:
Newp. Because the rules state "if you want to keep playing your stormtroopers as you DID, you can do so simply by" which is a very different piece of phrasing than "if you wqant stormtroopers but want to change the strat, relic, and trait they have available for a different regiment's." IE, if you do change those things, you are not playing them as you used to, so you have done more than a simple switchero. At least that is how I believe it to be. There is a more subtle point, for example, look at the jakal's warlord trait, it specifically only applies to jakals, and etc. Only the iotan gorgonnes anti-psyker warlord ISNT specifically about a unit of the same kind, and that kind is replaced in the act of picking stormtrooper.

Seems that you are attempting to make the rules imply a fair bit that they actually aren’t.

First, the FAQ tells you to use Stormtroopers as shown in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good. It shows you how to play as you had before with the new rules. It does not tell you to disregard all the rules in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good and just use Codex: Astra Militarum. For what is shown of the Stormtroopers doctrine in comparison to the other doctrines in PA:TGG, it is only telling you to reference the specific rule of what the Stormtroopers doctrine is, not the rules for gaining it, otherwise each of the other doctrines would also be formatted with the rules to gain them.

You seem to have a misunderstanding of how <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> and Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrines work as presented in Psychic Awakening: The Greater Good.

Per the writing of <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT>, you get to pick off the list with 6 choices. I’ll use Lambdan Lions for my example. So I’ve selected <LAMBDAN LIONS> as my <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT>. The books then says to select a regimental doctrine on the following page to benefit from. You have the ability to select, unlike presented in Codex: Astra Militarum, in which you are forced to choose the regimental doctrine associated with your keyword (unless you’ve made your own regiment, [which, btw, PA:TGG doesn’t have rules for in the Militarum Tempestus section], then you choose the doctrine that fits best).
So, I can choose that my <LAMBDAN LIONS> benefit from the Stormtroopers doctrine. That doesn’t change my <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> at all, so I still have access to all things that are <LAMBDAN LIONS> Tempestus Regiment locked. I just don’t get to benefit from Prized Weaponry since I didn’t choose it.

That's pretty awesome if true. So in my own case, lets imagine I have a detachment I stormtrooperize of (for example) lambda lions. Field commander drop specialist +1 to hit, 6 inches, and the second tempestor gets warlord trait reroll 1's, 6 inches. Call that battalion A, lambda lions stormtroopers. They would get stormtrooper doctrine. Now battalion B, lamda lions who are NOT stormtroopers. They would get to be affected by the aura from the reroll 1's, because LL regiment, but NOT the specialist drop detachment (because after all they ain't stormtroopers).

Now, battalion C. This one has 2 scion troop choices in it, but some cadians as well. So they don't get any doctrine, but are still (if I am reading this right) from the lions mil temp regiment, so they would ALSO? get to benefit from the reroll 1s?

If I place the 5++ invuln aura on the warlord tempestor (LL relic) that would cause then my stormtroopers to be reroll 1 and 5++ invuln, have the same effect on my battalion B lambdas, and carry through to have the SAME 2 effects on any of the battalion C lambdas without doctrine who happened to drop in, even though their doctrine is broken by the cadian presence? Battaloin A and C don't get prized weaponry, but battalion B would in that case, yes? Noting of course, that "friendly LL models within six inches" doesn't let you chain the effect out from the warlord, it merely lets you protect the nearby stuff.

This isn't something I am going to argue against, its a nice power creep for a faction I consider competitive with marines already, and an answer to the marine faction always having an apothecary to grant 5++ to their elite infantry, too. Plus, I get to shred those smug ignore ap -1 and -2 sisters armies with battalion B's anti-horde units.

This is actually freakin awesome for my particular army, and I have to consider its implications. So no argument from me, to be frank, I just wanted to be sure that this was a valid interpretation. and not just baconcat putting a hypothetical up.

I am also open to asking WHEN you choose if you are doctrine storm or doctrine lambda. Is that something you have to choose before a tournement's first round or before each round? Meaning you could be total stormtroopers one round, or total not stormtroopers the next? Ie, would that be like picking a warlord TRAIT or would it be like picking a warlord. While I am inclined to say you would probably have to have that on your little typed up sheet, who am I to turn down cheese to go with my new cheese?

Dukeofstuff wrote:
That's pretty awesome if true. So in my own case, lets imagine I have a detachment I stormtrooperize of (for example) lambda lions. Field commander drop specialist +1 to hit, 6 inches, and the second tempestor gets warlord trait reroll 1's, 6 inches. Call that battalion A, lambda lions stormtroopers. They would get stormtrooper doctrine. Now battalion B, lamda lions who are NOT stormtroopers. They would get to be affected by the aura from the reroll 1's, because LL regiment, but NOT the specialist drop detachment (because after all they ain't stormtroopers).

Now, battalion C. This one has 2 scion troop choices in it, but some cadians as well. So they don't get any doctrine, but are still (if I am reading this right) from the lions mil temp regiment, so they would ALSO? get to benefit from the reroll 1s?

If I place the 5++ invuln aura on the warlord tempestor (LL relic) that would cause then my stormtroopers to be reroll 1 and 5++ invuln, have the same effect on my battalion B lambdas, and carry through to have the SAME 2 effects on any of the battalion C lambdas without doctrine who happened to drop in, even though their doctrine is broken by the cadian presence? Battaloin A and C don't get prized weaponry, but battalion B would in that case, yes? Noting of course, that "friendly LL models within six inches" doesn't let you chain the effect out from the warlord, it merely lets you protect the nearby stuff.

This isn't something I am going to argue against, its a nice power creep for a faction I consider competitive with marines already, and an answer to the marine faction always having an apothecary to grant 5++ to their elite infantry, too. Plus, I get to shred those smug ignore ap -1 and -2 sisters armies with battalion B's anti-horde units.

This is actually freakin awesome for my particular army, and I have to consider its implications. So no argument from me, to be frank, I just wanted to be sure that this was a valid interpretation. and not just baconcat putting a hypothetical up.

I am also open to asking WHEN you choose if you are doctrine storm or doctrine lambda. Is that something you have to choose before a tournement's first round or before each round? Meaning you could be total stormtroopers one round, or total not stormtroopers the next? Ie, would that be like picking a warlord TRAIT or would it be like picking a warlord. While I am inclined to say you would probably have to have that on your little typed up sheet, who am I to turn down cheese to go with my new cheese?

Unless I’m missing anything or mistaken, this all sounds just about right. Do note, that any non-Militarum Tempestus units that are not Advisors and Auxillia units in a detachment automatically make the detachment not a Militarum Tempestus detachment, so you can not use any of the PA:TGG stratagems on the Scions in detachment C because they are in a <CADIAN> detachment. Those Scions are still <Lambdan Lions> but they don’t gain the benefit of any detachment.

I presume you choose your regiments in the army in the list building phase, so it would not be able to change from my understanding of most big tourneys.

Now the bonus question. Precision drop lets the old stormtroopers drop without harm to their members, its a stratagem from the codex. Is that gone now that there is a new precision drop strategem that non-stormtroopers can use, or can one now use both the strategem precision drop (stormtroopers only, but no special advantage to range) AND precison drop (any scions except those in battalion C, with the advantage you can drop 5.00001 or more inches from the foe AND suffer no harm out of one valkyrie that flew more than 20 inchs?)

Cause that would be rather nice as well, but seems unlikely.

Yeah more broken and guard crap, I realy wish GW would stop trying to allow fluff bunnies ways around the rules as intended as you end up with the above janky broken as hell interpretation.

Would it really have been so difficult to have just said corresponding regimental doctorine FFS.

text removed

reds8n

Page 8-9, Rulebook FAQ (last thing on page 8) says you cannot play two different Strats with the same name in the same Phase in Matched Play.

This thread just seems to be an effort to distort what is pretty clear after the FAQ.

Why couldn't they have just said

If your army is Battle-forged, all <Tempestus Regiment>units in a Militarum Tempestus Detachment gain the corresponding Regimental Doctorine from those presented on the page opposite, so long as .....

Other changes required add Storm Troopers to the list of <Tempestus Regiment> list.

Guards rules are either written by a fanboy trying to slip power creep in or whoever is supposed to be checking them is incompetent.

GW need to stop trying to stack rules on rules on rules especially across multiple books or kill older suppliments when they bring out new ones as I doubt they're testing all the stacking of rules.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

[/list]

The rule does not state that I must select the Regimental Doctrine associated with the keyword I chose, as the Space Marine rule does, it simply says I select a detachment trait.

Ergo, while I pick the 32ND THETOID EAGLES, I do not have to pick the Predatory Strike trait, I can pick any of the traits on the page, including the original Storm Troopers trait.

So, it seems the situation where your <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT> choice affects Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems, but not your detachment trait. I think this is true due to the lack of any compulsion to do so as in the Space Marine codex, but that seems counter-intuitive.

Have I missed something obvious? If we assume you must take the "correct" trait, that means you cannot take the Storm Troopers doctrine, but the FAQ permits it, which may on the one hand suggest that you are locked into the trait of you keyword and this is a special snowflake FAQ to say otherwise, or it might be saying that you can select any trait including the Storm Troopers trait.

Yes, this is correct, you can choose any doctrine (of the 7 listed), even one that does not correspond to your chosen <TEMPESTUS REGIMENT>, but you can still only use the strats, WT and relic that do match. Pretty sure this was pointed out in the Tempestus strategy thread a while ago. Not sure if there's much advantage to doing so though, so it may or may not actually be very useful to do so.

It may also be a mistake perhaps as it does not seem to fit the previously established pattern, but currently as written this does work.

So if I'm reading this correctly, your train of thought is that because the book doesn't specifically say "This regiment must take this particular Trait" as it does in the SM Codex, you're free to choose whichever one you want while keeping the Relics, WTs and Strats of the one originally chosen?

If so, it honestly seems a bit clutching-at-straws doesn't it? I don't think I've ever come across anyone trying this or even mentioning it since they introduced Keywords.

 Valkyrie wrote:
So if I'm reading this correctly, your train of thought is that because the book doesn't specifically say "This regiment must take this particular Trait" as it does in the SM Codex, you're free to choose whichever one you want while keeping the Relics, WTs and Strats of the one originally chosen?

If so, it honestly seems a bit clutching-at-straws doesn't it? I don't think I've ever come across anyone trying this or even mentioning it since they introduced Keywords.

How is it clutching at straws? The rules tell you what you can do. The rules tell you you can pick any trait.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
So if I'm reading this correctly, your train of thought is that because the book doesn't specifically say "This regiment must take this particular Trait" as it does in the SM Codex, you're free to choose whichever one you want while keeping the Relics, WTs and Strats of the one originally chosen?

If so, it honestly seems a bit clutching-at-straws doesn't it? I don't think I've ever come across anyone trying this or even mentioning it since they introduced Keywords.

How is it clutching at straws? The rules tell you what you can do. The rules tell you you can pick any trait.

And yet how many times have we seen GW go

What? Yeah that's not what we ment. Yeah okay it's what we wrote but it's clearly not what we ment. Okay fine we'll added an explanation to an FAQ.

Heck look at the mess that was Ironhands supliment playtesters even went public that they were broken and yet we got the rules published in an even more powerfully broken wording

 Valkyrie wrote:
So if I'm reading this correctly, your train of thought is that because the book doesn't specifically say "This regiment must take this particular Trait" as it does in the SM Codex, you're free to choose whichever one you want while keeping the Relics, WTs and Strats of the one originally chosen?

If so, it honestly seems a bit clutching-at-straws doesn't it? I don't think I've ever come across anyone trying this or even mentioning it since they introduced Keywords.

Codex: Astra Militarum also made the distinction that you would choose the doctrine that went with your regiment, so this indeed very different from both.

Then I suppose they mean the mil temp side of gaurd to have the powers and flexibility the normal gaurd simply lack -- a kappic tempestor prime can pass orders to a jakals command squad unit from a different detachment, even if that unit doesn't itself benefit from any particular doctrine because its mixed in with somone's sentinals and tanks. I honestly think even a pair of hotshotvolleyguns on a 4+ save 5 man team with 5++ invuln (relic) and inherent rerolls of 1 to hit AND the ability to take an order from the tempest prime (or from any other tempest prime) is a pretty powerful and flexible tiny addition to a standing army.

nvm, foudn the answer in an old discussion thread. cheers.