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Is the Black Templar Stratagem Devout Push essentially an out of sequence 9" move?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Per the title, Devout Push is a 1CP stratagem available to Black Templars that states:

Use this Stratagem at the start of the Fight phase. Select on BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit or one BLACK TEMPLARS BIKER unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, that unit can pile in and, when that unit consolidates, it can move up to 6" instead of 3"

Would the following scenario be legal?
An assault bolter intercessor squad embarked on an impulsor transport:
1) impulsor moves max distance
2) intercessor squad disembarks, advances, and fires at the enemy
3) during the fight phase the templar player uses the Devout Push stratagem on said intercessor squad to move 3" towards the enemy
4) the intercessor squad is still more than 1" away from the enemy
5) the intercessor squad then consolidates an additional 6" inches to be within 1" of an enemy squad, ending their fight sequence

and as a bonus:
6) the intercessor squad pays 3CP after the opponent fights to use Honour the Chapter, to fight again.

bonus bonus scenario:
7) There's a chaplain within range with the litany canticles of hate aura. The intercessor squad would then do a 6" pile-in in addition to the 6" consolidate.

I brought up the topic of consolidating without a target previously and the consensus was that you could pile-in/consolidate legally (thread here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/749568.page). Would the same apply in this situation? If not, why? RAW I'm not seeing anything that would prevent this scenario.

edit: for clarity, the Faith and Fury FAQ states:

Q: When using the Devout Push Stratagem, can a unit not
within 1" of enemy units be selected?
A: Yes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/28 08:38:13


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Edit: No, it is not legal. The stratagem only allows the unit to Pile in out of sequence and if they aren't within 1" of an enemy. If they aren't within 1" of an enemy unit to fight them, they can't consolidate.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/04/28 09:05:57


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Waelfwulf wrote:
Per the title, Devout Push is a 1CP stratagem available to Black Templars that states:

Use this Stratagem at the start of the Fight phase. Select on BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit or one BLACK TEMPLARS BIKER unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, that unit can pile in and, when that unit consolidates, it can move up to 6" instead of 3"

Would the following scenario be legal?
An assault bolter intercessor squad embarked on an impulsor transport:
1) impulsor moves max distance
2) intercessor squad disembarks, advances, and fires at the enemy


A unit cannot embark and disembark in the same turn. Its legal if they embarked in the previous turn. We will ignore the advancing and firing assault weapons issue for now.

Waelfwulf wrote:

3) during the fight phase the templar player uses the Devout Push stratagem on said intercessor squad to move 3" towards the enemy
4) the intercessor squad is still more than 1" away from the enemy
5) the intercessor squad then consolidates an additional 6" inches to be within 1" of an enemy squad, ending their fight sequence


Thats legal.

Waelfwulf wrote:

and as a bonus:
6) the intercessor squad pays 3CP after the opponent fights to use Honour the Chapter, to fight again.


Yes, thats legal. But they dont fight again. They fight for the first time. But thats fine, because honour the chapter says the unit can fight an additional time. 0+1=1.

Waelfwulf wrote:

bonus bonus scenario:
7) There's a chaplain within range with the litany canticles of hate aura. The intercessor squad would then do a 6" pile-in in addition to the 6" consolidate.


No. Devout push is an ability which increases the distance a unit can pile in/consolidate. Thus its not cumulative with canticle of hate.

6. Canticle of Hate If this litany is inspiring, add 2 to charge rolls made for friendly <CHAPTER> units whilst they are within 6" of this model. In addition, when a friendly <CHAPTER> unit makes a pile-in or consolidate move within 6" of this model, models in that unit can move up to an additional 3". This is not cumulative with any other ability that adds to a unit’s charge roll or increases the distance it can pile in or consolidate.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Edit: No, it is not legal. The stratagem only allows the unit to Pile in out of sequence and if they aren't within 1" of an enemy. If they aren't within 1" of an enemy unit to fight them, they can't consolidate.


Q: When using the Devout Push Stratagem, can a unit not
within 1" of enemy units be selected?
A: Yes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/28 09:19:04


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






He is not saying they embark and then disembark, he is saying they start embarked on the transport.

And like I said, you can use Devout Push on them, but it only lets them pile in out of sequence and not within 1", it doesn't let them consolidate, you still have to have been within 1" and attacked something to consolidate, because they didn't charge.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:
He is not saying they embark and then disembark, he is saying they start embarked on the transport.


He doesnt say that.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

And like I said, you can use Devout Push on them, but it only lets them pile in out of sequence and not within 1", it doesn't let them consolidate, you still have to have been within 1" and attacked something to consolidate, because they didn't charge.



He can pile in out of sequence, and he can get within 1" of enemy models with that move. But you are right, he cant consolidate, because he didnt fight.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Yes, he does.
Waelfwulf wrote:
An assault bolter intercessor squad embarked on an impulsor transport
Embarked is not the same as Embarks
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, he does.
Waelfwulf wrote:
An assault bolter intercessor squad embarked on an impulsor transport
Embarked is not the same as Embarks


He didn't say they start embarked.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, he does.
Waelfwulf wrote:
An assault bolter intercessor squad embarked on an impulsor transport
Embarked is not the same as Embarks


He didn't say they start embarked.
He didn't say they started off it either. You're assuming errors where there are none present.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Yes, he does.
Waelfwulf wrote:
An assault bolter intercessor squad embarked on an impulsor transport
Embarked is not the same as Embarks


He didn't say they start embarked.


He also didn't say they embark that turn as one of his steps for his scenario. When he says they're embarked on an impulsor with no direct statement they're embarking that turn, there's no reason to assume they're embarking that turn.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Alright, we assume they were already on that transport.

Anyway, what's the point of the stratagem ? You can pile in, but you can't attack, if you didn't charge that unit that you just piled into within 1". Without attacking you cannot consolidate. All you get is a 3" move from the pile in.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/28 16:45:04


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 p5freak wrote:
Alright, we assume they were already on that transport.

Anyway, what's the point of the stratagem ? You can pile in, but you can't attack, if you didn't charge that unit that you just piled into within 1". Without attacking you cannot consolidate. All you get is a 3" move from the pile in.
You can attack, precisely because you didn't charge, so can attack any units you are within 1" of after piling in. The stratagem literally lets you bypass the entire Charging phase and thus Overwatch.

Or do you think if an enemy charges my unit, I don't fall back with it, and then on my next turn I can't attack them because I didn't charge them?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/04/28 17:09:36


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




As others have stated I did mean embarked=in. They embarked in a previous turn/in the past so as to make it a non-factor for the purposes of this scenario. On the topic of interpreting the syntax and meaning of the stratagem I've got another question.

Originally I was thinking you can pile-in 3" and consolidate 6". However, looking closer at the text I'm not so sure anymore. The stratagem's wording is unclear to me, does it mean you can pile-in 6" and consolidate 6" or pile-in 3" and consolidate 6"? I'm no english expert but looking at the sentence structure of the devout push stratagem I see there are two dependent clauses in it that may or may not be mutually exclusive due to the confusing use of commas.

For context:
Devout Push 1CP
Use this Stratagem at the start of the Fight phase. Select on BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit or one BLACK TEMPLARS BIKER unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, that unit can pile in and, when that unit consolidates, it can move up to 6" instead of 3"


Using the following reference (https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/punctuation/independent_and_dependent_clauses/index.html) I'm making the assessment that we've got two dependent clauses that are independent of each other based off of this sentence. In the first dependent clause I'm seeing the Subject=The Unit Object=The enemy(not explicitly stated) Verb=Pile in. The second dependent clause being Subject=The Unit, Object=The enemy, Verb=Consolidate. So by syntax of the sentence if we were to separate the two dependent clauses it would mean that both clauses are true and the sentence reads like this:

Until the end of that phase, [Clause 1], [Clause 2], it can move up to 6" instead of 3"

Therefore:

1)Until the end of that phase that unit can pile in and it can move up to 6" instead of 3"
2)Until the end of that phase when that unit consolidates it can move up to 6" instead of 3"

Thus making the canticles of hate scenario a moot question as you have a 6" pile-in inherently baked into the stratagem as written. Am I misinterpreting this?
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

This is such a badly written Stratagem that I can't even tell what the heck is supposed to be doing.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 alextroy wrote:
This is such a badly written Stratagem that I can't even tell what the heck is supposed to be doing.
It lets you pile in even if you're not within 1" of an enemy, and if you end up consolidating that turn you get to move 6" instead of 3".

If you Pile In and don't get within 1", nothing else happens to the unit that turn, unless an enemy unit piles into or consolidates into it later in the phase.

If you Pile In, and get within 1" of an enemy (or an enemy unit piles into or consolidates into it later in the phase), you can activate that unit as a non-charging unit as normal (which means an extra 3" pile in) and when you consolidate after fighting, you get to move up to 6" instead of 3".

It's basically a way to charge 3" but bypass Overwatch and other charging restrictions.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/28 20:22:06


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Waelfwulf wrote:
Per the title, Devout Push is a 1CP stratagem available to Black Templars that states:

Use this Stratagem at the start of the Fight phase. Select on BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit or one BLACK TEMPLARS BIKER unit from your army. Until the end of that phase, that unit can pile in and, when that unit consolidates, it can move up to 6" instead of 3"

This Stratagem has errata and now reads:
Use this Stratagem at the start of the Fight phase. Select on BLACK TEMPLARS INFANTRY unit or one BLACK TEMPLARS BIKER unit from your army. That unit can pile in, and, until the end of the phase, when that unit consolidates, it can move up to 6" instead of 3".
Does that change any of the analysis?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/29 02:18:52


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






No, the effect is still the same.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, the effect is still the same.
But it's definitely worded more clearly.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

And would have been even clearer if they used two sentences. Too many commas!
   
 
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