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Hey,

This is both my first Astra Militarum army and my first post here.

I would greatly appreciate if you could give me feedback and generally your impression on the list. Although, I have already ordered the models for it, maybe certain things could be optimised. Some of the decisions were based on the fact that I really like the models (the Collosus Bombard and Malcador Infernus for example) or that the models are what they are and I like to keep things WYSIWYG.

The concept is that this list is a fun kamikaze army. I don't expect it to do well against everyone as it has definite exploitable weaknesses and half the points are meant to forcefully blow up in enemy lines.

Here's the list before my explanation below.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [21 PL, -1CP, 384pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Regimental Doctrine: Diciplined Shooters, Wilderness Survivors

+ Stratagems +

Imperial Commander's Armoury [-1CP]: 1 additional Heirloom of Conquest

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Chainsword, Plasma pistol, Warlord, WT: Master of Command (model is like that)

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave, Nightshroud, Psychic Maelstrom, Relic: The Deathmask of Ollanius

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 6x Guardsman: 6x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 6x Guardsman: 6x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 6x Guardsman: 6x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Elites +

Command Squad [2 PL, 40pts]
. Veteran: Lasgun
. Veteran: Lasgun
. Veteran w/ Regimental Standard: Lasgun, Regimental Standard
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Ogryn Bodyguard [4 PL, 57pts]: Bullgryn Maul, Bullgryn Plate, Slabshield

Special Weapons Squad [2 PL, 41pts]
. 3x Guardsman: 3x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Demo Charge

++ Total: [21 PL, -1CP, 384pts] ++


++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [64 PL, 1,116pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Regimental Doctrine: Gunnery Experts, Jury-rigged Repairs

+ Stratagems +

Tank Ace [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Shotgun (model is like that)

+ Fast Attack +

Artemia Pattern Hellhound [6 PL, 107pts]
. Artemia Pattern Hellhound: Artemia Inferno Cannon, Heavy Flamer

Artemia Pattern Hellhound [6 PL, 107pts]
. Artemia Pattern Hellhound: Artemia Inferno Cannon, Heavy Flamer

+ Heavy Support +

Collossus Bombard [11 PL, 158pts]
. Collossus Bombard: Heavy Bolter

Cyclops Demolition Vehicle [3 PL, 60pts]: Cyclops

Cyclops Demolition Vehicle [3 PL, 60pts]: Cyclops

Leman Russ Conquerors [11 PL, 162pts]
. Leman Russ Conqueror: Lascannon, Turret-mounted Conqueror Battle Cannon, Tank Ace: Master Mechanic.

Malcador Infernus [16 PL, 342pts]: 2 Heavy Flamers, Flammable Fuel, Heavy Stubber

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [6 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter

++ Total: [64 PL, 1,116pts] ++

I am using two detachments to maximise the benefits of custom Regimental Doctrines as they apply to tanks in the Spearhead Detachment and infantry in the Battalion. For the Battalion, the extension of the rapid fire distance is useful for the lasguns and the plasmas, while the other doctrine helps with survivability and objective holding. I can definitely see myself using a different doctrine than the cover benefit if you can suggest something better. For the Spearhead, the doctrines nicely boost the output of the variable shots of the tanks and jury rigging doctrine will help the tanks survive until they can get into position to unleash their short range weaponry, especially since Artemia Pattern Hellhounds don't have access to Track Guards to help them stay mobile and don't have as many wounds as the Malcador Infernus to spare. This will also force the enemy to focus fire, because it won't be enough to simply damage the vehicles to stunt their advance, because they can regain wounds each turn (1 wound on 2-4 and D3 on a 5+) and therefore potentially regain effectiveness by going up a damage bracket.

Many of the weapons are auto hitting (all the flamers and the Cyclops). Besides the Heavy Flamers, they cause multidamage and are very likely to cause mortal wounds if destroyed (D6 on 4+ within 6" on the Artemia HHs, D3 on 3+ within 6" on the Cyclops and D6 on a 4+ within 2D6" on the Malcador Infernus thanks to its Titanic Explosion).

This is interesting because it negates the degrading BS that would invariably occur in the time it would take the tanks to get within range to use their flamers, it would make the penalty for advancing irrelevant, but it would also negate the average BS of the army in general and negate enemy buffs or debuffs to hit them. Flyers would also be in big trouble if within range. Moreover, given the amount of flamer type weapons, overwatch is suicide for the enemy attempting to take down or tie up the tanks in close combat and the Cyclopses lurking behind are bad news for anyone.

Each of the two Artemia Pattern Hellhounds will advance on enemy positions and provide cover for the two Cyclops Demolition Vehicles. The Artemia Hellhounds Cyclops tag teams will provide enough distraction for the Malcador Infernus that will also be advancing to do its "thing" and if not, it will provide the distraction for the Hellhounds and Cyclopses to do their "thing". The Cyclopses can also be used alternatively for area denial if there is a strategic interest to do so, but in this way they are less than likely to make up for their points.

The Leman Russ Conqueror is an efficient midfield player armed with a medium range Conqueror Battle Cannon that benefits from the doctrine re-rolling one dice to dermine the number of shots and rerolling to hit rolls when within storm bolter distance when firing its coaxial storm bolter at the same unit than its turret weapon. For additional tank busting capability it has a single lascannon that sadly does not benefit from the reroll. I made him a Tank ace with Master Mechanic for increased durability which should combine well with the Jury Rigging Doctrine, but I'm open to suggestions regarding the other defensive or offensive options.

The Collosus Bombard will be useful to target objective and cover hugging enemy infantry accross the table outside of line of sight. It will do fairly well against heavy infantry and even just horde infantry based on its 2D6 re-rolling one dice for the number of shots. It could also do a number on lightly armoured vehicles, but that's a stretch.

The Chimera is equipped with double Heavy Flamers (works well again with the custom doctrine) and a Storm Bolter (point filler). It serves as the transport of the Primaris Psyker with Death Mask of Ollanus, his heavily armoured Ogryn Bodyguard and a Special Weapons team with two Flamers and a Demolition Charge for the occasional tough nut cracking. These will serve mainly to counter-attack and the psyker will give me something to do in the psychic phase and deny the witch. This may be smiting or buff the defences of my tanks with minus one to hit or better armour save.

The two commanders, one of which is the Warlord, will keep the infantry squads in line and provide orders. I do realise that the number of infantry is on the very low side, but this is mainly due to the fact that I am using models that are no longer produced by FW and that's how many I was able to acquire for the time being on the secondhand market. I agree, more would be better to hold and take objectives. I believe the single Leman Russ can also hold objectives as part of the Spearhead, unless I am mistaken.

If I wanted to expand or modify the list, I already own two Tempestor Primes with plasma pistols and power mauls (models are like that) with two Tempestus Command Squads (one with four plasmas and the other with four Meltas, but can mix and match) that I would play in a Vanguard detachment as 9th Iotan Gorgonnes. I also own another Psyker model that can act as an astropath and another two models that can act either as Astropaths or Priests or the three as the useless Wyrdvane Psykers trio even. I also have a third Cyclops Demolition Vehicle and Yarrick. In the future I would love to purchase a Macharius Vulcan in a Cadian Detachment (or Valdor Tank Hunter) and perhaps also a Vulture with two punisher gatling guns for the Dakka, though I find the model design stupid.

I'm very open to criticism and future purchase suggestions. I am aware this is probably a very badly designed and inefficient list, but you can't deny it's likely to be fun and there is a lot of threat to go around, even if it is the in your face kind, which isn't usually the best position for guards. The models are actually FW Renegade Militia count as Astra Militarum due to how trash their current codex is and more than half of the tanks I like, like those in my list, I can't even use.

Wyrdvane psykers are no longer useless -- they have a strategem to give +2 to cast for them AND a primaris psyker nearby, and it allows both them AND the primaris psyker to cast each an extra activation.
They are fragile -- but can be sheparded inside your chimera till you are ready to pull it off -- and give you quite a nice edge in psykerpower. Doesn't work with astropaths, though.
Yarrik is awesome but you have so many non-aiming items his +1 reroll to hit is almost not worth it unless you had the gorgonnes in play -- and then he shifts into high gear, but only if he is with them.

Your conquerer battle tank is an awesome thing to pick up on if this is really your first gaurd list you did your homework well! I love those tanks and have won more than a few battles with them. Esecially if you can old grudges a warlord, and get it neary your armor, you have a chance to really mess folk up.

Note that 1 tank commander with heavy bolter and battle cannon (relic) and 2 more conquerer battle tanks with CBC and HB each, would be I believe 498 points, and those 4 LRBT is a really good tallarn rolling tank wing (allowing the tallarn order to get used occasionally, that moves a tank after or before shooting, very handy if you are trying to pin someone down around LOS blocking terrain.)

Hey,

Thank you for the feedback. Yes, I had completely missed the recent Wyrdvane Psykers improvement. I will look at them with new eyes. If I added them as they are, they wouldn't fit with the number of passengers of the Chimera though. They could be something to look at especially for a larger point game. But since I have three suitable models, do you think taking 3 Astropaths or one Priest in the Chimera (boosting the Primaris and Ogryn) and 2 Astropaths for buffing the front line tanks could better?

Do you think it is a good idea to have the Ogryn Bodyguard to provide some combat edge and obviously protection for the Primaris? I forgot to mention that I am also using him because I have the model for it.

I agree, Yarrik is cool, but not of optimal utility because like you said I have a lot of auto hitting weapons. That's interesting what you say about the Gorgonnes. It is true that in terms of special weapons, I run quite a bit of plasmas and obviously, the Tempestus Command Squad with full Plasmas would greatly benefit from Yarrick sticking around in a larger game. My idea if I was running both Tempestus Command Squads would have been to have the Plasma squad hang around midfield with some infantry screen and the Melta squad deploy in deep strike. Please confirm if my understanding is correct that it is better to have both squads specialise in Melta and Plasma, as opposed to mixing special weapons.

Thanks about the Conqueror Leman Russ. At this time, I own only one Leman Russ but have a Battle Tank, Conqueror Cannon, Executionner, Demolisher and Punisher Turret for it, so I can be flexible about the load out. In one of my list building testing, I had used it as a tank commander, but decided against it because of the points and I think he actually becomes targetable with a Space Marine stratagem and doesn't hold objectives anymore if I am not mistaken. Can you please confirm that the Leman Russ I have in my list can hold objectives?

I think the Conqueror Cannon makes it so that at least when within Storm Bolter range, he becomes a bit of a budget Tank Commander in terms hitting more reliable with his main weapon. I could go with a Demolisher since they are even more terrifying nowadays. But I think as it is, the Conqueror brings a bit more balance to my list. What do you think of the Tank Ace ability I chose for him? Do you think it's the most appropriate?

With regards to my Warlord Trait on my Commander, I am not sure what is best according to my list. Master of Command is great, but I don't have many units that can benefit from it as I'm mostly running forward advancing tanks in my list. Old grudges on a warlord is nice, but almost nothing worth it will be within aura range of the warlord.

The Tallarn detachment of Leman Russes you describe sounds very dangerous for the points indeed. For a bit less points, the Macharius Vulcan would be cool, but likely less effective, if I scaled up to 2000 points. What do you think if the Valdor Tank Hunter? It would keep with the violently (2+) exploding theme haha.

I confirm it can hold them -- but its not very good at it if you are not in a spearhead. In a spearhead, it gets objective secured, otherwise, it is hoping to be th eonly thing by the objective, as even 1 enemy troop choice will outcompete it and 1 enemy elite model will cause a tie.

Old grudges can be quite good, because you can place WLD among your tanks and point all their guns at that one big thing you absolutely have to kill or you lose the game (like mortarion, or a charging knight gallant that you really don't want to melee with, or a unit of 6 centuriions cowering in cover.

I like macharius vulcan in theory, but they seem really expensive and I try to avoid finecast / resin models like the virus.

If you do punisher, you want to swap to an extra -1 ap on the turret weapon -- but I dislike a very short ranged tank like that where you are absolutely forced so close to the enemy to fire. At least your conquerer you can sit back a bit if you are in a bad tactical matchup like "oh, those marines want to hit me with melee weapons, I will be over theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere." Less accurate, but more survival.

ministerium priests pair really well with bullygryn and ogryn bodygaurds. They work surprisingly well with lambda lions scoins (whose unimpressive s3 melee are ap-1 so 22 swings per 10 man unit is actually not crap, even if you are basically hoping to get in a fight with very weak opponents). 3 squads regular gaurd is probably not enough melee base to justify a minipriest -- for the price, he brings an extra swing on the ogryn bodygaurd and an extra swing on a psyuker who really shouldn't get into melee anyway. I am on the fence in your case because I do like them, but you are throwing a lot of points into buffing like 3 melee characters who are ok, but not going to win the game for you. For the same price, you could put 2 plasma cannon on your conquerer, and stil have 15 points left over to add .. I dunno. ... a pair of hunter killer missles to your various armor units. But if you buff the ogryn guy (see below) I think the minipriest might be worth it.

Why the psyker shouldn't melee.
Quick answer. He sucks. He has a 4++ shield so any wound he takes (s3 means 2/3 of hits by s4 stuff) is a save he will miss half the time. He is in trouble fighting 5 scouts in melee -- they all pile on him and hit on 3+ with 7 attacks, he probably is making 4 saves, loses 2 wounds, sounds good. Now imagine him fighting a marine lieutenant with the teeth of terra chainsword. He gets hit 6 times, easy, by that one guy! Each hit is s7 so they wound on a 2+ and reroll 1's, meaning 6 saves! Each save missed is 2 points of damage. He takes on average about 6 points out of his 4 and dies instantly. Because the marine probably charged him, he never swings back.
Even with the addition of a 4++ shield, the psyker primaris has a fairly unimpressive couple swings with a staff that doesn't have much armor penetration power to it. Imagine him trying to kill those 5 marine scouts with their puny little sv 4+. becomes -1 for save 5+. So fine, but he is not hitting them more than maybe 2 times so probably he kills a scout. If he were swinging at a marine thundercaptain jerk, he would proabbly hit it 1 time or 2, and then see the force shield defense block 2/3 of his hits, while the thundercaptain can probably hit him 5 or 6 times for 3 points a hit, killing him more than once over.
He does way better smiting from behind a wall of nervous gaurdsmen.
What to do with the mask of oleanus
Now, if you put it on the ogryn bodygaurd... he has a few more hit points and potentially 2+/4++(his shield +2 to his native 4+ bullgryn plate, and his 4++ from the mask) armor meaning that he can step into combat and be quite hard to kill, he is also t5. So people CAN waste a whole turn trying to pop him, and then see him heal himself for d3 ... That hypothetical lieutenant might still force him to make a ton of saves, but probably no more than 5. The teeth of terra is only ap-2 -- so if he got a +1 save buff, he is saving against it on a 3+ with his armor. Meaning that our hypothetical lieutenant who hits him six times, would wound him only 5 (the 2 is a dead dice), and he would save maybe 3 of them, leaving hiim aliive to swing back with his maul, smack smack smack smack (does he get three, or four, I dunno, but that lieutenant is going to be soaking a few hits himself now, and the bullygryn can then self heal d3 points in a hurry to continue the melee) Against a swarm of marine scouts, they maybe hit him 6 times, but only wound him TWICE, and he saves 5/6ths of the damage because he has a 2+ base armor. So he takes nothing, and smacks 3 of them into an early grave.

Now sneaky idea, if you end up buying more scions, remember that you can also always build a medical scion with a hotshotlasgun,hslpistol, medikit, and throw him in a command squad. If he happened to be near your 2+/4++ ogryn bodygaurd, you could slip a wound or two back on him and make him into a real annoyance at a level that the psyker (who WILL die in one round of most melee) just can't approach. Better by far to use that psyker to give the ogryn +1 to saves, or a helpful smite while the astropaths deliver _+1 to saves and -1 to be hit. Sounds crazy, but a really buffed up OBG is worth twice his points in 4++ psykers in melee, he can sometimes go toe to toe with a space marine captain and come out smiling. (Honestly, that teeth of terra weapon is pretty frightful for a zero cost relic item on a 60 point model lieutenant.

I don't like your build on the tempestor prime for a very similar reason -- they tend to die in a breeze with s3/t3/4w but no invuln shield at all and save on 4+. So in melee, they fall to marine scouts, and that's not a good trade. A space marine captain would just kill one of them a roudn with probably minimal damage done to him, as even 4 hits from mauls still mean only 2 saves and only 1 fail, causing 1 point of damage to the marine captain, who then hits one hard enough to kill it. Next round, you might not even get that far, but space marine captain man will still kill the other one.
Now that math changes a bit, if the ogryn bodygarud is there to intercept woudns, but not even his heroics will keep everything alive, as the marine captain may do something like 12 points to the poor tempestor, and an OBG can't soak more than he has in one phase. So if they are not IN combat, but back enough to be passing orders to the squads shooting at a marine captain who also is not in combat? happy scions. In combat, well, that teeth of terra guy would kill a whole command squad in one go, or a tempestor prime, or ...

(In my head, I am assuming your enemy souped in 15 scouts, a thunderhammer captain, and a lieutenant iwth teeth of terra, and gave the scouts each a pair of storm bolters. so 177+136+60= 373 points of marines, capable of shooting some 46 bolter shots a round if they hold position (not shabby). Not really a powerful group but not crap, it has good first turn board control and a little melee, and the annoying tendancy for the thunderhammer guy to attack your tanks or troops by flying over a low wall that blocks line of sight. Viola, no overwatch, and he can basically smash a tank a round. So throwing the melee force at him is a decent countercharge attack as well. I often run 3 ogryn bodygaurds behind a line of 10 crusaders -- with a lord commisar and a ministerium priest in as support -- and that's a good melee line with character protections on the ogryn and potentially a 2++ invuln on the front row. Against that, our pair of marines would be a bit daunted .. even though the price of 10 crusaders 130 plus minipriest 35 plus 3 obg 171 plus a lord commisar 39 pops you up in points pretty quick, its a wedge of stuff that is hard to kill, and if someone kills the crusaders off with lots of ranged fire, the rest of your blob can hide behind any other unit in a pinch, even a local tank. Crusaders in cover, by the way, can use go to ground strategem to get to a 2+ save even when not buffed by an astropath. (as can scions!) But a lone OBG and a lone psyker, the psyker is just dead, and will often drag the ogryn down with him cause he is so easy to wound and the poor bodygaurd tried... tried...

A concern you should ahve is that GW is going to in the next month or so republish the forgeworld indexes. They may remove some of the tanks or nerf the hell out of them or make them cooler, but nobody knows at all. They may even give renegades access to them all. So be cautious in planning a campaign of purchases based on the forgeworld rules that were.

I confirm it can hold them -- but its not very good at it if you are not in a spearhead. In a spearhead, it gets objective secured, otherwise, it is hoping to be th eonly thing by the objective, as even 1 enemy troop choice will outcompete it and 1 enemy elite model will cause a tie.

Old grudges can be quite good, because you can place WLD among your tanks and point all their guns at that one big thing you absolutely have to kill or you lose the game (like mortarion, or a charging knight gallant that you really don't want to melee with, or a unit of 6 centuriions cowering in cover.

I like macharius vulcan in theory, but they seem really expensive and I try to avoid finecast / resin models like the virus.

If you do punisher, you want to swap to an extra -1 ap on the turret weapon -- but I dislike a very short ranged tank like that where you are absolutely forced so close to the enemy to fire. At least your conquerer you can sit back a bit if you are in a bad tactical matchup like "oh, those marines want to hit me with melee weapons, I will be over theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere." Less accurate, but more survival.

ministerium priests pair really well with bullygryn and ogryn bodygaurds. They work surprisingly well with lambda lions scoins (whose unimpressive s3 melee are ap-1 so 22 swings per 10 man unit is actually not crap, even if you are basically hoping to get in a fight with very weak opponents). 3 squads regular gaurd is probably not enough melee base to justify a minipriest -- for the price, he brings an extra swing on the ogryn bodygaurd and an extra swing on a psyuker who really shouldn't get into melee anyway. I am on the fence in your case because I do like them, but you are throwing a lot of points into buffing like 3 melee characters who are ok, but not going to win the game for you. For the same price, you could put 2 plasma cannon on your conquerer, and stil have 15 points left over to add .. I dunno. ... a pair of hunter killer missles to your various armor units. But if you buff the ogryn guy (see below) I think the minipriest might be worth it.

Why the psyker shouldn't melee.
Quick answer. He sucks. He has a 4++ shield so any wound he takes (s3 means 2/3 of hits by s4 stuff) is a save he will miss half the time. He is in trouble fighting 5 scouts in melee -- they all pile on him and hit on 3+ with 7 attacks, he probably is making 4 saves, loses 2 wounds, sounds good. Now imagine him fighting a marine lieutenant with the teeth of terra chainsword. He gets hit 6 times, easy, by that one guy! Each hit is s7 so they wound on a 2+ and reroll 1's, meaning 6 saves! Each save missed is 2 points of damage. He takes on average about 6 points out of his 4 and dies instantly. Because the marine probably charged him, he never swings back.
Even with the addition of a 4++ shield, the psyker primaris has a fairly unimpressive couple swings with a staff that doesn't have much armor penetration power to it. Imagine him trying to kill those 5 marine scouts with their puny little sv 4+. becomes -1 for save 5+. So fine, but he is not hitting them more than maybe 2 times so probably he kills a scout. If he were swinging at a marine thundercaptain jerk, he would proabbly hit it 2, and then see the force shield defense block 2/3 of his hits, while the thundercaptain can probably hit him enough to kill the hell out of him.
He does way better smiting from behind a wall of nervous gaurdsmen.
What to do with the mask of oleanus?
Now, if you put it on the ogryn bodygaurd... he has a few more hit points and potentially 2+/4++(his shield +2 to his native 4+ bullgryn plate, and his 4++ from the mask) armor meaning that he can step into combat and be quite hard to kill, he is also t5. So people CAN waste a whole turn trying to pop him, and then see him heal himself for d3 ... That hypothetical lieutenant might still force him to make a ton of saves, but probably no more than 5. The teeth of terra is only ap-2 -- so if he got a +1 save buff, he is saving against it on a 3+ with his armor. Meaning that our hypothetical lieutenant who hits him six times, would wound him only 5 (the 2 is a dead dice), and he would save maybe 3 of them, leaving hiim aliive to swing back with his maul, smack smack smack smack (does he get three, or four, I dunno, but that lieutenant is going to be soaking a few hits himself now, and the bullygryn can then self heal d3 points in a hurry to continue the melee) Against a swarm of marine scouts, they maybe hit him 6 times, but only wound him TWICE, and he saves 5/6ths of the damage because he has a 2+ base armor. So he takes nothing, and smacks 3 of them into an early grave.

Now sneaky idea, if you end up buying more scions, remember that you can also always build a medical scion with a hotshotlasgun,hslpistol, medikit, and throw him in a command squad. If he happened to be near your 2+/4++ ogryn bodygaurd, you could slip a wound or two back on him and make him into a real annoyance at a level that the psyker (who WILL die in one round of most melee) just can't approach. Better by far to use that psyker to give the ogryn +1 to saves, or a helpful smite while the astropaths deliver _+1 to saves and -1 to be hit. Sounds crazy, but a really buffed up OBG is worth twice his points in 4++ psykers in melee, he can sometimes go toe to toe with a space marine captain and come out smiling. (Honestly, that teeth of terra weapon is pretty frightful for a zero cost relic item on a 60 point model lieutenant.

I don't like your build on the tempestor prime for a very similar reason -- they tend to die in a breeze with s3/t3/4w but no invuln shield at all and save on 4+. So in melee, they fall to marine scouts, and that's not a good trade. A space marine captain would just kill one of them a roudn with probably minimal damage done to him, as even 4 hits (from the both of them, they hit 2 times each) from mauls still mean only 2 saves and only 1 fail, causing 1 point of damage to the marine captain, who then hits one hard enough to kill it. Next round, you might not even get that far, but space marine captain man will still kill the other one. If you were lucky, you did 2 to the marine captain there. If you were unlucky, that smug jerk just gets away with it.
Now that math changes a bit, if the ogryn bodygarud is there to intercept woudns, but not even his heroics will keep everything alive, as the marine captain may do something like 12 points to the poor tempestor, and an OBG can't soak more than he has in one phase. So if they are not IN combat, but back enough to be passing orders to the squads shooting at a marine captain who also is not in combat? happy scions. In combat, well, that teeth of terra guy would kill a whole command squad in one go, or a tempestor prime, or ...

(In my head, I am assuming your enemy souped in 15 scouts, a thunderhammer captain, and a lieutenant iwth teeth of terra, and gave the scouts each a pair of storm bolters. so 177+136+60= 373 points of marines, capable of shooting some 46 bolter shots a round if they hold position (not shabby). Not really a powerful group but not crap, it has good first turn board control and a little melee, and the annoying tendancy for the thunderhammer guy to attack your tanks or troops by flying over a low wall that blocks line of sight. Viola, no overwatch, and he can basically smash a tank a round. So throwing the melee force at him is a decent countercharge attack as well. I often run 3 ogryn bodygaurds behind a line of 10 crusaders -- with a lord commisar and a ministerium priest in as support -- and that's a good melee blob (not that good, I know, but for gaurd? not crap.) line with character protections on the ogryn and potentially a 2++ invuln on the front row. Against that, our pair of marines would be a bit daunted .. even though the price of 10 crusaders 130 plus minipriest 35 plus 3 obg 171 plus a lord commisar 39 pops you up in points pretty quick, its a wedge of stuff that is hard to kill, and if someone kills the crusaders off with lots of ranged fire, the rest of your blob can hide behind any other unit in a pinch, even a local tank. Crusaders in cover, by the way, can use go to ground strategem to get to a 2+ save even when not buffed by an astropath. (as can scions!) But a lone OBG and a lone psyker, the psyker is just dead, and will often drag the ogryn down with him cause he is so easy to wound and the poor bodygaurd tried... tried...

A concern you should ahve is that GW is going to in the next month or so republish the forgeworld indexes. They may remove some of the tanks or nerf the hell out of them or make them cooler, but nobody knows at all. They may even give renegades access to them all. So be cautious in planning a campaign of purchases based on the forgeworld rules that were.

Hi, yes. That's very true, they will apparently update FW rules. However, I have already ordered everything before I heard the rumours... so hopefully it will all be positive improvements and nothing dissapears. As far as I am aware, all the tank models are still sold on their website until recently, so they should still be supported. I hope they make Renegades better or cheaper at least and give them back their cool stuff.

But the Leman Russ is in a Spearhead Detachment with all the other tanks. So I guess it gets objective secured.

Ok, I'll think more about Old Grudges in the context of where I place my warlord. But the problem is that most of the tanks will be rushing forward.

Regarding the Macharius Vulcan he is no longer an option, I have a friend that's selling his Valdor Tank Hunter for cheap, so I'm going with that and a Tempestor with Plasma Command Squad to bring the list to 2000 points. Now, this will truly be a Kamikaze list with all these highly unstable tanks hahaha

I see what you mean with resin, I don't like it either and hate working with it... yet everything in the army except for the Leman Russ will be made from resin. Talk about masochism.

If I went Punisher I would have gone with your suggestion, but I have enough short range in my list. The Demolisher at least had the damage potential at that range. I think the Conqueror is a fine choice and it doesn't want to get into contact with the enemy, especially since it cannot reliably blow up in their face with a vengeance.

Thank you for your detailed breakdown, I won't bother with the priest. I will get the Primaris out of the frontline (no longer in the chimera) and put the Death Mask on the Ogryn instead.

The problem with the Scions is a question of modelling. The models I use to represent scions are Renegade Militia Enforcers. I don't have Hot Shot lasguns to equip them, so they all have special weapons, therefore I had to make each squad I have bought into Tempestor Primes with 4 Scion Command Squads. This is also why I can't add a medic. This whole army started out as a Kill Team project actually. Talk about mission creep! This also explains the full Scion plasma Squad. The models I use as Tempestor Primes are modelled with Power Mauls and Plasma pistols. I am aware this is not optimal, but things are as they are. They could still add a little bit of bite should the squads find themselves in close contact with the enemy. It's a bit of a waste of points, but I don't think this is what will make or break my list.

It's sort of for the same esthetic reason that I can't field things like the Crusaders you mentioned, because of the Renegade theme and lack of appropriate looking models to represent them. But I like the idea of what you are running.

I agree with you that such a character can certainly avoid overwatch and smash a tank a round on close combat, however the fun aspect of my list is that if you did so, most of my tanks reliably blow up dealing D6 mortal wounds to every unit within a certain distance.

I think I will take the Commander from the spearhead and bring him into the Battalion so he can benefit form infantry doctrines and exchange his place with the Primaris Psyker since the latter no longer needs to be in there to get the Death Mask.

What do you think of the Wilderness Survivors doctrine actually?

Also, do you think Heavy Bolters are better on the Hellhounds?

wilderness survivors is ok, its nice ot be in cover, especially cause it means you get to throw an extra +1 defense strat on a single squad as needed -- and can potentially throw an astropath's aegis of the emporer on it as well. Which means, you can go 5+ to 4+ (wild surv) to 3+ (go to groudn 1 cp) and also 2+ (aegis of the emperor).
hmmmm. That is actually kind of cool. Given you can stich gaurd squads together, to make bigger gaurd squads? That's 20 wounds at 2+ someone has to shoot, and that's not an easy thing to do. When you add a THIRD such squad in? It becomes THIRTY wounds at 2+ armor save. Sure, you can still kill those gaurdsmen, but its going to take an awful lot of shooting to do it. A vulture's punisher strafing run would hit them some 23 times, would wound them some 17 times, and would kill only 3 gaurdsmen. A squad of 6 aggressors with full dakka equipment cutting into them with more than 100 shots? Would kill a bunch, but it wouldn't be the wiped out imperial gaurd that the marines are used to getting.

So I quite like wilderness survivors -- long as you are standing still, you can throw all that stuff on a unit and viola, its real hard to drop. I have pulled off similar things by virtue of everyone being in cover when I made the blob in past, and its really hilarious when someone with a whole bunch of hurricane bolters in marine hands can't quite .. kill ... one damn blob ... of gaurd ... over six roudns of trying.

Its actually pretty frigging cool. I would -- were I you -- quietly join gaurd squads together in preparation for this little sneaky pete end of game trick, because you can also spread the 30 of them across multiple objectives in a big, hard to kill chain gang. IF its the last few turns of the game, just remove the ones in the middle areas where no objectives are near, and they are out of cohesion, so what? You may have only 16 left, but if they are all on objectives and 2+ armor, that is a surprise your enemy may not expect, or be able to kill with late game resources he has available. Even more annoying if the blob is also -1 to be hit from a second astropath. IF you plan on trying this blob tactic, then a ministerium priest becomes a more useful asset -- 30 guys in a pile attacking once is ok, but twice is twice as nice, and with saves that decent the gaurd is going to be aroudn long enough to swing several times, I bet.

Those two suggestions (lambda's 5++ shield is good) and "astropath buffed blob of death gaurdsmen" ... could give your army the sort of resilience that people usually only see in sisters or marines. Because all your troops end up protected one way OR the other, it makes the most of your small troop count.

ok, so, if you were to make your little group of
tempestor prime
tempestor prime (thjat's two guys who are command)

astropath (1 elite!)
command squad melta4
command squad plasma4

You could have an all lambda lions vangaurd detachment and give one of the tempestor primes the lambda lions special relic and the lambda lions special warlord trait for 2 cp. This could give the whole group reroll 1's to hit for free AND a 5++ shield on everyone, and all the troops melee AND shooting attacks go up a point in ap. So they go from "its going to die with only one salvo fired" to "meh, maybe somethinglives", even in melee, and the enemy has to fire at them a few more shots to blot them off the board. Buying you time and such for other things to get ready... maybe getting an extra melta shot or two off.

FYI, since crusaders come from the ministerium, I don't even try to make them look like the soldiers they are among, just like you don't make scions look like cadians or catachans look like death gaurd. The photos aint great but you can see a few in my gallery section, to get an idea.

Since much of your early game is a "zerg rush" with tanks, if you can convert it to a resilience defense game in the later time frame, by the time someone notices your gaurd units, they may have trouble killing them, especially if their tank units are firing stuff like laser cannons at individucal gaurdsmen. And seeing the occasional save still happen!

Hi,
Those are some interesting tactics there. Like I said, I would have brought more Infantry blob if I could find Renegade Militia kits, but these have dried up.

Yeah. I didn't really talk much about my strategy regarding my troops which in my mind kind of relied for survivability until later in the game on the very scary tanks and ordnance rushing forward. Hopefully not being noticed as much until later in the game when they will matter more.

Oh, sure. Crusaders are ecclesiastical warriors and shouldn't look anything like guardsmen, but in my case, holy crusaders would look really out a place in very obviously traitorous army. My mind would not allow this suspension of disbelief.

I have a question regarding the new Tank Ace rule for Lows. I will make a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment to host my Valdor Tank Hunter. If I give him the Steadfast Leviathan tank ace ability, the rules says that if my army is Battle-forged, this model gains the Regimental Doctrine of its <REGIMENT>even if it is in a Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment”.

My army is Battle-forged as far I understand it, but I have two detachments with different Regimental Doctrines. Does that mean I can choose for my Valdor Tand Hunter which of these two Regimental Doctrines to follow? Or does that mean I have to make all my detachments follow the same Regimental Doctrine for the Valdor Tank Hunter to benefit from a Regimental Doctrine?

You are assigning the Valdor to a regiment, as I understand it.
Rememebr tank ace is free only 1 time, though, the second time you must surrender the warlord trait of a warlord to give it out.
IE, no old grudges warlord trait (but I think that may have to be in the same detachment)... or no mechanic master for the conquerer battle tank.

You can get the Tank Ace by forgoing the Warlord Trait on your Warlord and/or paying one Command Point for the Tank Ace Stratagem. However my question was more specifically about the Steadfast Leviathan rule. Basically, if I have 2 detachments each with its own Regiment, can I chose which one applies to the Tank Ace or do I have to have all my detachments be of the same Regiment to apply to the Tank Ace.

So, I have both somewhat improved the orignal list and expanded it to 2000 points with the addition of a Tempestor Prime with a full plasma Command Squad and a Valdor Tank Hunter.

Notwithstanding the clarification needed for the Steadfast Leviathan rule, I gave the Valdor Tank Hunter the Regimental Doctrine of my choice, the one conferred by the Spearhead Detachment. This was using the Tank Ace Stratagem and will both improve its damage output and its staying power by healing wounds each turn. It's role will of course be to mainly nuke enemy vehicles and debuffing them with a minus one to hit for a turn if not outright destroying them. Thanks to its Steel Behemoth rule I am less concerned about enemy units tying it up in close combat, moreover if they did manage to take it down, the almost guaranteed explosion (2+) will be spectacularely satisfying. For the same reason, if it were be soon be destroyed, I'd try my best rush it in contact with the enemy for that sweet 2D6" Titanic Explosion.

The Tempestor and his plasma Command Squad will hang in the midfield to concentrate fire on heavy infantry and potentially vehicles. They could also start in reserve if needed.

Essentially the other parts of the list and their role remains about the same, except for a few things here and there. To recapitulate the basic strategy, each of the two Artemia Pattern Hellhounds will advance on enemy positions and provide cover for the two Cyclops Demolition Vehicles. The Artemia Hellhounds Cyclops tag teams will provide enough distraction for the Malcador Infernus that will also be advancing to do its "thing" and if not, it will provide the distraction for the Hellhounds and Cyclopses to do their "thing". The Cyclopses can also be used alternatively for area denial if there is a strategic interest to do so, but in this way they are less than likely to make up for their points.

The Leman Russ Conqueror is an efficient midfield player armed with a medium range Conqueror Battle Cannon that benefits from the doctrine re-rolling one dice to dermine the number of shots and rerolling to hit rolls when within storm bolter distance when firing its coaxial storm bolter at the same unit than its turret weapon. For additional tank busting capability it has a single lascannon that sadly does not benefit from the reroll. I made him a Tank Ace with Master Mechanic for increased durability which should combine well with the Jury Rigging Doctrine.

The Collosus Bombard will be useful to target objective and cover hugging enemy infantry accross the table outside of line of sight. It will do fairly well against heavy infantry and even just horde infantry based on its 2D6 re-rolling one dice for the number of shots. It could also do a number on lightly armoured vehicles, but that's a stretch.

The Chimera is equipped with double Heavy Flamers (works well again with the custom doctrine) and a Storm Bolter (point filler). It serves as the transport of the heavily armoured Ogryn Bodyguard with Death Mask of Ollanius and a Special Weapons team with two Flamers and a Demolition Charge for the occasional tough nut cracking. These will serve mainly to counter-attack and prevent enemies from reaching my infantry lines.

The Primaris Psyker will give me something to do in the psychic phase and Deny the Witch. This may be smiting or buffing the defences of my tanks with minus one to hit or better armour save depending on what is more appropriate in light of the enemy list.

The two commanders, one of which is the Warlord, will keep the infantry squads in line and provide orders. The Warlord will stick around with his Command Squad with Regimental Standard, but he does not have a Warlord Trait so that the Leman Russ Conqueror can be made a Tank Ace. For their survival earlier in the game, I am relying on the scary rushing tanks to keep the heat of them until later in the game when they become more useful. The Diciplined Shooters Doctrine will boost the Rapid Fire range of both the lasguns and the four plasmas distributed across the 3 Infantry Squad and Command Squad. The Wilderness Survivors Doctrine will hopefully make my infantry a little more durable, especially since they are not many of them to spare.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [27 PL, -1CP, 492pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Regimental Doctrine: Diciplined Shooters, Wilderness Survivors

+ Stratagems +

Imperial Commander's Armoury [-1CP]: 1 additional Heirloom of Conquest

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 35pts]: Chainsword, Plasma pistol, Relic: Kurov's Aquila, Warlord

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Shotgun (model is like that)

Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 44pts]: Plasma Pistol, Power Maul (model is like that)

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 6x Guardsman: 6x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 6x Guardsman: 6x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 55pts]
. 6x Guardsman: 6x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Heavy bolter
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Elites +

Command Squad [2 PL, 40pts]
. Veteran: Lasgun
. Veteran: Lasgun
. Veteran w/ Regimental Standard: Lasgun, Regimental Standard
. Veteran w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 80pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun
. Tempestus Scion: Plasma gun

Ogryn Bodyguard [4 PL, 57pts]: Bullgryn Maul, Bullgryn Plate, Relic: The Deathmask of Ollanius, Slabshield

Special Weapons Squad [2 PL, 41pts]
. 3x Guardsman: 3x Lasgun
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Flamer
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Demo Charge

++ Total: [27 PL, -1CP, 492pts] ++



++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [64 PL, -1CP, 1,134pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Regimental Doctrine: Gunnery Experts, Jury-rigged Repairs

+ Stratagems +

Tank Ace [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave

+ Fast Attack +

Artemia Pattern Hellhound [6 PL, 107pts]
. Artemia Pattern Hellhound: Artemia Inferno Cannon, Heavy Flamer

Artemia Pattern Hellhound [6 PL, 107pts]
. Artemia Pattern Hellhound: Artemia Inferno Cannon, Heavy Flamer

+ Heavy Support +

Collossus Bombard [11 PL, 158pts]
. Collossus Bombard: Heavy Bolter

Cyclops Demolition Vehicle [3 PL, 60pts]: Cyclops

Cyclops Demolition Vehicle [3 PL, 60pts]: Cyclops

Leman Russ Conquerors [11 PL, 164pts]
. Leman Russ Conqueror: Heavy Stubber, Lascannon, Turret-mounted Conqueror Battle Cannon, Tank Ace: Master Mechanic

Malcador Infernus [16 PL, 342pts]: 2 Heavy Flamers, Flammable Fuel, Heavy Stubber

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chimera [6 PL, 90pts]: Heavy Flamer, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter

++ Total: [64 PL, -1CP, 1,134pts] ++



++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [18 PL, -1CP, 374pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Regimental Doctrine: Gunnery Experts, Jury-rigged Repairs

+ Stratagems +

Tank Ace [-1CP]

+ Lord of War +

Valdor Tank Hunter [18 PL, 374pts]: Heavy stubber, Heavy Stubber, Tank Ace: Steadfast Leviathan

++ Total: [18 PL, -1CP, 374pts] ++